Yeah, thump away! Good catch.

But.... (or as IC would say, "AND") maybe it wasn't all together inaccurate.

It may be true for ME. I was laying in bed this morning and it occurred to me: it could be that I'm starting to realize that there's just too much hurt to overcome.

The last 15 months have been UGLY. Truly UGLY. That maybe I've just been in denial of the real truth: that no marriage could survive what has gone on between he and I....what he has allowed to happen, what he has been a party to, what he has done himself, how I've behaved.

Maybe the best I am hoping for now is the opportunity to have enough of a relationship with WH that we can still share our history without bitterness and pain. As I was laying there, I had this moment of imagining myself living my own new life as a richer and more enlightened person--happy. In that little vision, WH was an old friend. Not a partner, not part of my life, just someone with whom I share a history.

Problem is, even this scenario requires WH to take responsibility for the hurt he caused me.

I think that's what I struggle with most these days...trying to reconcile myself to the fact that WH may NEVER take responsibility for what he's done...and that I have to learn to live with that. This would make my life messy.

And I don't like messy. I like order.

Ahhhh....anyway. For today, I can speculate about his reaction to the settlement offer. My attorney says it is fair, and I believe it is, but who knows what he thinks. And it's a little scary...I hope I've made all the right decisions financially.

IMHO that is one of your next hurdles Sis - realizing and accepting that he isn't going to. If you really look at it, it doesn't matter from a practical sence anyway. It isn't going to change anything in the real day to day world even if he does. And he isn't going to.

I have a nosy question feel free to ignore. What does your IC say about all this living in the past and dependant on someone else to do something to make you feel achnowledged and able to move forward, thinking ? "The last 15 months have been UGLY. Truly UGLY. That maybe I've just been in denial of the real truth: that no marriage could survive what has gone on between he and I....what he has allowed to happen, what he has been a party to, what he has done himself, how I've behaved." Is this how you talk to the IC ? , You seem to spend a lot of time here on the "has", "was", "did". I think you'd be happier and maybe feel better if you spent the same or more time on the future. IMO this "if he does this then I will be able to xxx" thought process is tying you down and making you still dependent on someone elses actions - instead of your own. What he does will determine if your future life is "messy" ? Why are you giving him that power ?

Maybe he will (good). Probably he won't (bad). Maybe he will and will never tell you (bad). One small possible good and two probable larger bads. Not much to bet a future on. And throughout, you have no control of any of this. And if it makes your life messy it is your choice.

Don't chose that. It's time to release this.

Just a thought from the D-Line.

I agree with notashoped who said...



So much time spent on the PAST and armchair speculation regarding your WH's personality issues..WHO KNOWS? WHO CARES? WHAT DOES IT MATTER?...

Move on to creating a HAPPY LIFE for YOURSELF..that's a CHOICE you can make to do TODAY...

Hi, Sis.

I'm not sure you HAVE TO accept that he won't ever do those things. Different things are "needed" at different times in our continued personal recovery.

Time will eventually change those "needs". If next year comes and he still has not had that realization, it won't be as important to you then as it is today. And it probably isn't as important to you today as it was on d-day and shortly after.

I think it's okay to hope that he will come to those realizations. It could help restore some of your faith in him at least as a role model for your children.

I'm reading this assuming that you aren't letting this consume you and rule your life, but something you think on.

Good for you for continuing to say what you think about although you are often told not to think a certain way.


I think you can learn from the past and move on to a happier life (while living in the moment), but not by ignoring the past.

Best to you,
Fox

I'll be more specific:

Messy in terms of having this unresolved and unreconciled relationship with (as the father of my children) a person who will be in my life forever.

It is what it is. It is also sad that this is what is. Can I REALLY choose to not be unhappy about that? If not for myself, then for the boys?

It would be like saying I'm not sad that my dad died. It is just sad and always will be. Even though I am sad about my dad's death and miss him terribly, I continue to live my life and find happiness. Of course. But I will never "get over" losing him.

I don't think there's any getting around that one.

I'm not betting my future or trying to come up with a way to change the outcome, I'm just pondering: ewwww...this is not going to be pretty. In the (probable) event that WH never acknowledges what he's done, there will be this pile of [censored] sitting there forever.

This is simply true. This unresolved relationship, this unacknowledged hurt...no matter how I move on in my life (which I will; it's not stopping me), I am not convinced that WH and I can have anything other than a very distant and businesslike relationship with that pile of [censored] sitting there.

I CAN NOT clean it up, because it's his. I CAN avoid stepping in it, I can ignore it, I can put a big planter in front of it so that I don't see it or smell it...but it's still there. We have kids together; we will always be connected to one another through them.

One thing I've learned: it is NOT healthy to pretend the [censored] isn't there. That's denial.

THAT'S what I'm trying to manage and work through...for ME. What's the most effective way to deal with the pile of [censored]?

Maybe it will just dry up and end up looking like a rock. Who knows?

I'm getting WAAAAY ahead of myself here, anyway, because it is not TODAY. But I continue to mull this one over. I'm CHOOSING to consider it and process it because it will very likely impact my life and the boys' lives for years to come.

NAH: I do not see this as living in the past: it is ALL about the future. Nor do I see my happiness as dependent upon WH: this is simply one facet of my life that I will have to learn how to manage...and this is what I am attempting to do. IN LIGHT OF the likelihood that WH will never take steps to resolve our relationship, how to I pigeon-hole that relationship?

I've not encountered this before in my life, so this is new to me. There are people here who are in exactly the situation that I describe, and others who are in my same place...so this seems like a good place to raise the issue.

Does anyone "get" what I'm saying?

LS-
I agree with the others...

He knows what he is responsible for, he knows what the outcome of his actions was. He does not need to tell you that he knows he did it. It is in front of him everyday.

It actually may be best for him to NOT apologize or anything. That way you will not stop in your moving forward process.... and maybe start thinking, "well, am I making a mistake? Should I give him more time?"

I think that after the D is through, you should maybe stop the NC with him. And face him, show him that you have moved on in your life, and you are still strong. It will ease some of the stress I think. To see him once in a while, and not have it be a big thing, it would just be kid exchanges. I am not talking when he comes to get the kids you run out and talk to him, but if you are in the room where the door is, you would not need to run away from him.

Sometimes facing our demons, and showing them that they are not so bad and scary like we thought helps you move forward.

Just a thought.

I think you were posting when I was posting and Sadmo was posting when you were posting.....gets a little busy around here sometimes!

I was glad to read that follow up post. I'd hoped that's where you were.

Fox

Fox:
I think you “got” it. I’ve considered what you mentioned…that in time it won’t matter so much (it will become dried up old rock that sits there unnoticed). It’s a process. As the wounds heal, the need for tending those wounds becomes less.

I would also love to have the man I married back as a role model for the boys—absolutely. This is a huge loss to them.

And no, I’m not letting it consume me. It’s just one of those things that keeps tickling the back of my mind every now and then, particularly as we go through this D, which could hardly be called friendly. Everything is contentious RIGHT NOW. It won’t always be that way.

The wounds will continue to heal. I'll figure it out. I'm just doing so publicly.

Sadmo: I even said as much to my attorney the other day. He asked about the lack of contact between WH and I. I explained that it is helpful for me right now, because my experience is that WH behaves rather like a bully with me directly, but when he goes through someone else, he is suddenly conciliatory. I also think that once the D is final, and I KNOW where I am financially and with regard to custody, etc., that I will feel MUCH more confident about my position.

I have also thought about the “facing demons” thing. I have been sort of running scared from WH for a while. Much of it has been emotional (fear that he will hurt me again), and much of it now has to do with fear of something that might mess up the settlement. Once the settlement is done, then I’ll see where I fall on the emotional fear part.

I'm certainly not advocating IGNORING THE PAST...

I'm advocating a FOCUS, though, on stuff that YOU CAN CONTROL...otherwise anyone, including me can begin to WALLOW...in the mud, with the PIGS....

Looking at the PAST to HELP you DEAL with the PRESENT is absolutely necessary and EMPOWERING..but I say ACT..don't just PROCESS...I ask: What can I learn from MY MISTAKES? What can I do differently now? What will I make sure to NEVER DO AGAIN?

I actually HURT for YOU,SIS, when I read about the time you spend speculating about your WH's personality issues..why he is living with his parents, etc...IMO, he infects your life that way..or should I say INFESTS your life...cause figuring that out will get you NOWHERE...he may NEVER, EVER CHOOSE to deal with his issues...I say the same for my H regarding his PERSONAL ISSUES...and he lives right here with me..struggling with his PERSONAL DEMONS...

This is what I have been referring to when I say that I agree with the other poster...

Sis...we've talked about this before..and you indicated that you thought that I had other traumas prior to my H's affair and that you perceived your life as being OK before then....

We do have in common the death of our fathers..that was a tragic event for me as well...in terms of TRAUMA, it's hard for me to say today what was WORSE..D-DAY or learning of my father's sudden and surprising death...BOTH DAYS....were VERY HORRIBLE?TRAUMATIC/LIFE-CHANGING for me..but the way I deal with both of those days NOW...is to shake them out of my thoughts..but I had to go through a GRIEF PROCESS..maybe that's where you are...going through the GRIEF PROCESS and that does take YEARS...

And you know what, even though I had EARLIER TRAUMAS..an unhappy childhood..I NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT MY H WOULD HAVE HAD AN AFFAIR...I thought I had a FAIRY TALE MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIP...so we are the same in that regard...

That's what I mean about learning from the PAST and moving on..I NOW TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED...even though my R with my H is WONDERFUL NOW..more WONDERFUL than that fairy tale image that I used to have, I REFUSE to take HIM for GRANTED...

Just my musings...

I don't know how helpful this is..we seem to be to have such a different point of view about things...

Yep. The evil Grinch Chrisner keeps hoping for the Karma Bus (one of those big over the road, tandem rear axle coach numbers) to run down Wayzilla like a West Texas armadillo at the intersection of Adultery Avenue and Infidel Boulevard then back up and get her again. Ahhhhhhh…….sorry for the dreamy smile.

But…..It’s really time to just go ahead and bring the Who toys back down Mt. Crumpet and get on with carving the roast beast.

By the way, my mother died last September 24th less than 2-months before D-Day. I was still totally oblivious to the affair.

You have done a magnificent job Sis. I am proud of you.

LS;

Didn't you "get" that when you confronted him a few months back? Didn't you see those emotions then? Or is it not meaningful because you pulled it out of him.
I thought you "got" that acknowledgement from him. He acknowledged wrongness, was sheepish, etc.

He knows. You know he knows. What more do you need?

Stay on your high road, and decide for yourself if you want any type of relationship with him in the future. Personally, I think I would stay in Plan B mode for a long long while -- definitely until you see how he behaves post-divorce.

LilSis,

On the grief process...One of the hardest parts of grieving after our DS died was how to fill the time I had spent caring for him, thinking about him, worrying about him, planning for him, etc, etc. Eventually the time was filled with other things. But it took a very long time.

Even when I lost my dear, sweat dog a couple of years ago, it took a while to find a way to fill the hole of time that had been spent caring for and loving her.

In some ways, I think it is even harder when the person is still around but no longer part of your life. You will still see him which will always be a reminder. When you see him or have an interaction with him, it will remind you that the scar is there and you will think about what caused it, even if it is only for an instant.

You seem to be a pretty analitical person. If you are looking for something to do sometime to help fill some time, check out these websites: Enneagram Institute and 9 types. The enneagram helps explain personality types. It has been very useful for me in helping with both my own personal growth and interactions with others (and fun, too).

SHOL

mimi: I truly believe it IS a grief process, and that I AM moving through it. (my IC says so as well; he encourages me not to push it, that it will take its own time to work through and subside)

It may seem as if I obsess on this stuff, but really, in my everyday life, I don't. It's just here...a place for me to contemplate the wreckage that my life became after d-day, reflect on where I am now, and where I hope to be.

I think that I am ACTING on what I am learning...maybe not in tangible, obvious ways, but in things like this: I had a big event at work last week that I was responsible for. Previously, I would have been losing sleep over the darn thing, worrying over every single detail that was out of my control (i.e., what if the caterer gets into a horrific car crash on the way to the event??). I would have worried incessantly about what everyone thought, I would have castigated myself for any tiny thing that didn't go according to plan.

Instead, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed planning it, I enjoyed working with everyone involved, I enjoyed addressing issues as they came up, and I enjoyed the event, and the kudos that came afterwards.

So the things I can act on now…I am working on: Let go of control, take care of myself, let others take care of themselves, trust that good will come, don’t be fearful, feel the feelings that I have, live in the moment. These are more “states of mind” than observable behaviors.

But this new "state of mind" was not won easily. It has been a heck of a lot of hard work; work that is still going on. I am in the midst of this process. I know I'm not done yet. I still feel anger, hurt, rejection, pain, bitterness...but they are SO much less!!

Slowly but surely, I will get there, of this I am confident.

(and regarding my dad's death--just to help you understand how I experience it--I don't feel like I have to shake it off. I just feel the sadness. It doesn't affect my behavior. It's just sad. I recognize that, sort of say hello to it, and move along with my day. I'm sort of comfortable with the fact that I will always miss my dad, so it doesn't throw me. Does that make sense?)

I completely get it, Sis. I'm right there with you. It doesn't consume the day or even have much of an effect on it, but it creeps out as something to muse over.


Lexxy raises a good point. You've seen it, but it wasn't enough. Can it ever be enough? Even if he were to give you the falling-down-on-his-knees apology that we all long for, a few days later we'd probably still want to see more. Accept and let go. There's probably a Day for this. I'll look for it later.

But don't think you're alone in this. I want the same things, and when I believe that I will never see them, I want to hurt the SCQ. "It's okay--I know you're not big enough to accept responsibility for what you've done and apologize."

So I say nothing, and won't for some time. Until you're doing better in terms of acceptance, you're probably better off in Plan B, too.


Myers-Briggs is another good one, but you have to pay for the test. I'm an INTP. Fascinating stuff.

I think about my mom now and then (she died in February '99). There is always a thread of her in my every day. When I am with my DS, and he laughs, throwing his head back, I mourn a little more, for I missed the opportunity to watch him FILL HER WITH JOY. I so wanted that with her, to further our mother/daughter bond. I mourn it, STILL to this day.

I actively mourn the loss of my FORMER M, and hope to have a newer, healthier, happier R to replace that on. For now, the past does inundate now and then. I feel it, and let it pass, like an undercurrent. It never rules my mood, just comes along, and moves through this space in my head (I think my brain is shrinking, YIKES!!!--plenty of space up there these days.)

It sounds like you are reviewing the past, not so much dwelling. That's good. Find your mistakes, make yourself better, stronger, learn from them.

It sounds like you are experiencing the D, and all that entails. It's LOSS, for many involved; I would expect you to mourn and review.

As long as you don't let it rule you.

Lex: You are right...from a practical perspective, I did get part of what I needed: acknowledgment that what he did was wrong. That’s step one. Step two “should be” remorse (darn that “should be!”). To ME, acknowledging that one did something wrong SHOULD (!) lead to remorse, repentance, reparations, etc. To me, that’s “normal” or rational. So you see I’m still trying to stamp the word “rational” on the forehead of a WS.

HA! That’s fruitless, as we all know. So once I “get” that, then I need to re-think my expectations…which is what I’m working on here.

The truth is, I need to NOT HAVE expectations. This is easier to do day by day.

Good point about seeing how he behaves post-D. I know that I feel like I am being very cautious and keeping my cards very close. Lots of distance, no emotion. Cold. It’s business.

SHOL: It’s true…filling time is so difficult, especially when the kids are gone. I have to carve out a whole new life for myself. Sometimes, that feels exciting and full of possibilities. Other times, I hate the prospect. Depends on the mood.

ENFJ here.

I'm also a "high D" on some other test we took at work that I don't even remember what it means.

Our HR folks are really big into categorizing people. I suspect that they figure if they can just categorize people, they never have to actually get to KNOW them...

And sd: RIGHT NOW you are absolutely correct: It could never be enough. Hands and knees, sackcloth and ashes might not be enough.

TIME. In the future, when the wounds are not as fresh, when I've learned ways to fill up my time, when the triggers don't sting as much, then I don't think it will matter so much.

I will be able to "let go" of ever wanting or expecting MORE.

See how far I've come just today??