SM,
Thank you for your response. I understand her beliefs scare you. I see a lot of fear in your posts. I understand the perception of having a tug of war right now. That's what power struggles feel like.
With MC, it's not unusual for each of you to have two different goals. That's okay. My DH and I had very different goals and we both attained them.
In H4C's post, she recalled you saying "I'm afraid if i'm not with you, they will tell you what to do." She was respectful in not putting it in quotes because she couldn't recall your exact phrasing. I want to highlight this is an "I" statement...states your fear, shares your belief.
That's terrific. H4C's answer was equally terrific. She answered with
"I was furious. What I heard was if i'm not there to tell you what to do they will like I do not have a mind or morality of my own."
She shared her filter from your statement, which is awesome, as well.
So I think I understand when you say "we try to talk all the time, although I must admit talking seems to only make the situation worse right now." You've got half of great communication going...you both use "I" statements and share your stuff.
I think it's the other half which isn't there right now (and I'm only going off a few posts). That's the listening part.
What I hear is that you fear...you have a lot of fears. You cherish your wife, your marriage, your life. I hear you fear not being heard, understood, or protected. Those are yours. That doesn't mean she's making you fear. You fear. That's valid. That's yours.
I hear she fears, as well...she fears being controlled, defined (told who she is), failing you, or you seeing her as less than she truly is. I hear that's because she cherishes you, your marriage, your life together.
I think you both fear it being wrecked...from the outside or the inside. I believe that's a reasonable fear which is part of those rings on your fingers.
In my experience, it isn't fear which will tear the marriage apart...it's reacting from the fear that does.
Here's some of the truth which may help. Marriage has three phases. In Phase I, we meet and fall in love with each other's best selves. Happens in all sorts of different ways. What attracts us are a complex mixture in the other person of all that we know from our FOO (family of origin)...what we love and what we fear. We are marrying a person we love and fear...only in Phase I, they are all love...as are we...because the fear only jumps up now and then and love seems to fix that fear. Doesn't, in reality, just feels like it does.
Makes sense to me because our strongest two emotions are love and fear. We often feel completed by our spouses in Phase I...finally whole, safe, fulfilled. They are our best friends, our other halves...they've got our backs and wouldn't hurt us.
Phase I feels like true love...yet if you picture a set of scales, they are really tipped far to one side, aren't they? Lots of expectations from false evidence...not deceptively false...naturally false...when we are acting from love, our best selves, we're being real...doesn't mean that's all of us, does it?
And we reflect one another back to each other. We reflect great appreciation, admiration, attention, delight, joy, as easily as handing out pennies...think nothing of sharing the abundance we experience being married to our partner.
As our relationship continues over the years, our whole selves come out...not just our best. We do hurt our partners...not intentionally, and intentionally. Slowly, the scales tip the other way...because now we aren't safe, completed...this partner has the way in to hurt with the tiniest action or simplest word. We are vulnerable to their opinions, what they reflect of us...they matter greatly to us (our other halves), so when we aren't reflected as we'd like, we don't reflect back in the same way. When we hurt, we want to hurt back to get our partner to not hurt us...like those scales, tip the balance...get it back to no hurt, no fear...all love.
In Phase II, we bring out more of our whole selves...living together does that...no place to hide our irritation, frustration, reactivity. This is part of intimacy...sharing all of ourselves, not just best self. Not just the parts you want your partner to know, accept and admire...even the parts of us we don't know, accept or admire. And because that's full of fear, because intimacy is scary, we begin to see our teammate, our comrade, more like an enemy...how will they react if? More caution, less intimacy, feels like trust takes a dive, and then our urge to protect more, control more (our desire to control their reaction to our stuff to keep us safe). Not bad or unreasonable...part of growing together, into one.
Which is where Phase II knocks the heck out of partnerships...you aren't one...you are two separate human beings in one whole marriage. Easy to overlap...because the truth is that each choice each of you takes affects the whole...and can feel instead like it affects each partner's whole being.
Overlap.
Phase II is where marriages end. There are coping skills which keep it going...trade offs...counter measures. Phase II can last decades because of this. Alternating from seeing each other as an enemy, an ally, back and forth.
Phase III begins when coping skills are exchanged for living skills. That's when each partner accepts on a core level that which they cannot control. When they step into reality and hold it with both hands. Two separate and equal human beings choosing to share all of themselves, knowing they will at times feel pain, joy, security, emotional peril, and do harm even as they do love. Knowing they are each complete and together, they complete a union. They don't act from fear...they hold their fear, know it, share it and do not act from it.
Instead, they know they choose to love their partner and act from it...so Phase III is the mature way of loving...with our entire selves known and knowing each other. Not enemies or caretakers or protectors of what is within us...not putting that all over their partner...not reacting from their feelings...knowing they choose to act in celebration of themselves, their partners and their marriage.
And you can't get there without having experienced Phase I and Phase II. They are essential.
During these phases, there are three stages Harley calls Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal. Up to each partner to know and state which place they are in. To understand their own choice to be in one of them. I see you both as being on the cusp of Intimacy and Conflict. And what blows me away is that I see you connecting through conflict.
You guys ROCK.
Listening helps the listener to discern stuff from actions.
H4C has not chosen to go to parties and bars without you. She has considered your fear of undue influence, and her own desire not to feel controlled. She has not acted on it.
That's the truth, SM. I repeat this for clarity...to discern what is versus what you fear will happen.
As for the flashing...your fear remains in you, therefore, you don't see her ownership of it, her amends. That's you cutting out reality. I'm bringing it back to you. Your fear greatly increases from your own beliefs. I ask you to choose them from the truth, not your truth (that's when you spiral down).
The flashing incident is a great way for you both to meet in the middle. Your fears cannot control your partner. They sure will control YOU...your life experience. I believe what you crave most is to not live from fear but to live from love. You've got some work to do on the inside of yourself. Her choice to flash hit your fear dead on...showed you that she chooses all of her actions...you have no control. Your worry came true...she was influenced in that moment as if she didn't have a mind or morality of her own.
She gets that. She gets where your fear isn't baseless. It's real. It happened. Didn't live up to her code, her own self-image. Get your reflection of her out of the way, SM. Listen to her own and amend. Not to keep your fear down...because she didn't like her own choice in that moment, either...or the consequences. Your fear can drop now because she gets it...not because you control her.
I hear that in you saying you've "explained" your stuff. That if she will really get your stuff, you'll be safe.
You won't be safe from any of her choices, SM. You make yourself safe. That's what boundaries are. They don't move unless YOU move them. And fear will make you widen them far beyond what is real...they will go around her, like a noose, and choke your marriage. Boundaries are around your choices...and seems to me, you hold yourself to them really well in your actions. What's kicking your heart right now, is that you're struggling to hold H4C to them as well...from fear.
That's not love. That's not respectful. That's not reality. She has her own boundaries...listening, understanding and accepting she has her own is what I don't see you doing. If you won't do that to her, then your fear will come true because you won't really do that for your own.
I saw anger in your posts and in H4C's. Anger is a secondary emotion...what's your primary one? I hear fear. I hear the same in hers. Anger isn't the opposite of love...sure can feel like it is...anger is a signal a boundary has been crossed...so check the boundary.
You may have a boundary which says that you cannot feel anger, so neither can your partner. Not a real boundary, eh? What if the real boundary is you permit yourself to state your anger, not demonstrate it? Healthy boundary. Be clear on your lines, and your feelings will be different.
H4C may have a boundary like that, as well. I must believe in myself and therefore, SM must believe in me also. That can be a pretty jumpy boundary, as our faith in ourselves can go up and down; same for in our partner. Not a healthy boundary. Same for the hidden belief that our partners keep us emotionally safe...when they cannot do that. Sure can feel like they are that powerful. If you are the guard of her anger and she is the guard of your fear, then that's a fantasy boundary, isn't it? Your feelings are signals to you, about you, from your own beliefs. You get to choose your beliefs...the result isn't really within your control.
What if believing in others means trusting others? Harley says blind trust will ruin a marriage (my perception). I was shocked when I read that...and then stunned. Yes! That's true. I was told that if you can't trust your partner, you have no marriage. That's what I was raised with...yet I saw my parents do harmful stuff...in fact, you could trust each one to react in pretty much the same way, each time, to the marriage's detriment. Well, that's trust, isn't it?
In Phase I we blindly trust. In Phase II, we learn that our partner's character will not keep us safe...because we only have our own perception of their character. And we're human, and we don't live up to our boundaries all the time. Not intentionally...and sometimes, intentionally. We just don't. In fact, we can be trusted not to sometimes. Trust remains through our perception. Not what we need most when we need it in the way we think we need it.
Getting to know what trust really is...how in extreme it gives us permission to not be mindful, aware of reality, and has no acceptance in it...will actually sabotage a partnership...that's really good to know. And how without any, there can be no connection between selves...well, another extreme, right? In the middle of trust, there is care, consideration, respect, acknowledgment..all that great stuff.
So if your goal is to have a full-proof marriage with extreme trust...might want to change the goal, not the partner, right?
Speaking of goals...seems like you both share the same ones...you want to be partners for your whole lives, with whole selves, in equal respect, acceptance and awareness. See why you guys rock? What you're working on right now is the many paths to those goals...and your lives occur only in the moment...one day at a time.
Would it help, SM, for you to stay present...right now? Not go into all the possibilities of how your marriage can be torn apart through what ifs? Or go into the past (which from the length of my post, all the words preceding this one are already in).
To truly listen, we have to be present...our filter, what we perceive from, is full of every past action and future fear. Up to us to cull those out...listen and repeat, or as your wife does, listen and repeat with filter. Our choice. Inherent. Constant.
Mastering your own stuff is your half of the marriage, SM. Same for H4C.
Which is why venting is a coping skill, not a living skill. Same for privacy in a marriage...you may think it protects (controls) your partner to not fear or react from their fear. That's fantasy, really. It's what we learned, felt like a healthy action...until we learn healthier ones.
Every human learns what is within their control and what is not...over time. Isn't a character issue...humans want to control to feel safe. We aren't safe. We are flesh-wearing creations who are vulnerable to love and harm every moment of our lives...so we can connect, widen our experience. We aren't safe from anything. Our power is in making ourselves safe for others and for ourselves.
You guys cherish each other and your marriage. You each demonstrate it's your priority, your heart's home and I see active reverence. I'm asking each of you to see how the other reveres already...which is how you stop seeing your partner as your enemy or the enemy to the marriage. Then your fear drops and love comes rolling in...the land of understanding and acceptance...because you know what you cherish is cherished by your partner, as well. Which is you, btw.
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See where all of what concerns you, SM, ties into one central place. If you want H4C to protect you from feeling afraid, then her hiding her spending, or her anger (venting) is honoring your boundary. Not healthy, not real. You can't have it both ways because in our human design, we are constant two-way streets. Not your fault. Don't wrestle the truth or her truth...mind your own. Assess your own boundaries, if they are reasonable and healthy or not.
And H4C will mind hers. That's what she's telling you. She's in this with you. Healthy boundaries don't have power struggles...no one feels controlled by them. When we choose unhealthy ones, then that's the signal...each sees the other as a threat, as controlling, and walking on eggshells may be the resulting belief...and I think you guys sense this already...and have seen where this downward spiral from unhealthy boundary placement and enforcement kills marriages. Your fear is real and valid. And you're actively working on not going there. So you won't go there, guys. Know that.
LA
