Its ok to be scared, its not ok to allow it to control you.

You may be right. How do I stop this conflict avoidance? Do you have any tips on how to stop this? Maybe I am not "getting" the way I am conflict avoiding and the repercussions of doing that.

Can you explain?

Sandy

Sandy, I went back and read your posts spanning the last few years and the issue is always the same: he has no respect for your boundaries. And you tolerate it. You have had the same problem for YEARS, those are the repercussions.

Can you explain why you tolerate such a lack of respect? And why you won't do anything about it?

I don't see him as the problem here.

Whomp! Ouch! The 2 x 4 hurts! I agree with what you have said Melody--as hard as that is to hear. You are right in that he has not respected my boundaries in so many ways.

I am the problem in this marriage. This is hard to accept and I have to absorb this for a minute. He continues on (with whatever is the issue) even after i put my foot down. He is walking all over me.

My God--this is sad. He has all of the control and I just let him take it. He is so much stronger than I am--louder, thicker skin etc.

I realize that he is a high stakes player. I'm no match for someone who feels such entitlement and I've let him take it.

"Can you explain why you tolerate such a lack of respect? And why you won't do anything about it?"
I really don't know how to answer this. I feel broken inside and my mind and heart don't seem to mesh..I feel tough but fold like a towel when the going gets really tough in our arguments.

Geez...I feel like I need a shrink!


Things have got to change. THis will be hard. I have some major reconstruction of the way I think about myself and my "marriage". How do I begin? Any thoughts?

Thanks for the insights everybody. Talk to you tomorrow folks!


Sandy

I don't think you need a shrink. I think you need to become willing to protect your boundaries so you can stop being broken. You say that "this will be hard," but hasn't it been extremely hard dealing with the same problem year after year after year? There is nothing "easy" about folding like a towel at all. You are TEACHING him to disrespect you by tolerating abusive, thoughtless behavior.

Something to think about, Sandy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sandi ~ get "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend. You will learn a LOT from it.

Hi Sandy, I've been a lurker here for a couple months and have learned so much from everyone. It will take more time than I have right now to give my situation , but since I've decided to come out of 'lurkdom' I plan to do so this weekend.

Your post is what took me from lurking to posting because I can relate to so much of how you are feeling. I seem to be obsessed too with my H's daily activities, due to some of our trust issues, although he is doing all that I've asked, the trust is taking time to regain. And I have a concern of having let my guard down again only to get hurt again.

Some of the questions you've been asked here, I have asked myself. My main issue is I draw the line in the sand and after awhile, it gets blurred and I keep drawing it. I ask
myself, WHAT AM I AFRAID OF? Why do I let my H manipulate me. (thats what I feel it is)

I found an article on Co-dependency after reading about it here ( I googled the topic and found a great description) and parts of the description fits me to a T.

My fear is abandonment. If I make him upset, he will leave, not love me, etc etc.

Now, the thing is, he doesnt ever say that he would or do anything (actions) that make me feel that way, like leave and be gone for days etc. He gets quiet and I start to panic..

I only feel this way with my relationship with him. Other people can get upset with me and I dont care..

I'm trying to figure out how/what I need to do to work on this issue about myself.

Anyway, for some reason, I felt by what you were posting that you may be a little like me I the way that you fear standing up for yourself. Hope I'm not offending and I didnt mean to be so long winded.

I will post my situation, like I said this weekend which will cast more light on why I feel like I do in my relationship. But I just thought I'd reply to you because I felt like you are feeling what I feel.

I totally understand what you are saying Chacha and I really identify with what you write. I could have written your post too.

I really agree with what you say about the line in the sand getting blurred when it comes to my husband. For anyone else--it is there.

I look forward to your post. Thanks for responding. It helped a lot.

Sandra

Sandi, the part where your H said to his friend: ”I think of you often too” immediately raised a red flag with me. It’s definitely inappropriate to say that to an opposite sex friend. Your H already has an inappropriate attachment to her otherwise it would have been no problem for him to stop communicating with her privately/inappropriately.

Close opposite sex friendships should only be allowed if the person/couple is a friend of both spouses AND the marriage where both spouses can spend time with the person or couple. A one-sided close opposite sex friendship (where the spouse is excluded and not part of the friendship) is a danger to the marriage and it’s very inappropriate to spend time and communication like e-mail, texting, phone; recreational time etc. alone with such a friend. And this is especially true if the person was wayward and has shown a weakness towards the opposite sex. As a F?WH, it’s your H’s responsibility to protect himself against this weaknesses and stay away from such friendships. My EA started out as such a friendship too. At one point during our friendship me and FOM started saying things to each other like ”I will think of you/miss your e-mails during the holidays” etc. and thinking back now, I realize that at the time, the friendship was already inappropriate and moving into the direction of EA and inappropriate feelings.

If your H interacts with this woman in an appropriate way during the times the concert band gets together, it should be okay, but he should respect your boundaries and concerns and stop to interact with her privately via e-mail, phone etc. all the time. In other words, he must start behaving towards her like he would towards any acquaintance or work colleague (or in his case - "concert band" colleague).

Sandy,
I agree with Mel. Your husband is behaving in a thoughtless manner. Your response that you describe is using words to tell him how you feel about his behavior. Tell us more about what behaviors you have implemented to deal with his thoughtless behavior--not just what you have said to him, rather, tell us about your behaviors within this R.
Lake

Sandi,

My husband was a member of a band and a professional musician for several years, and one of the members was a female. There was a lot of boundary crossing, and at one point my husband and I separated, because he felt like I was too jealous of the groupies, I tied him down, he wanted other women, he never loved me, the band didn't like me, etc. etc.

This was, BTW, many years ago!

The female member of the band was a person I was very jealous of and did not understand at all, and I did not like her one bit. I did not feel she was a friend of my marriage, and at the time, she was not. She was a friend of the band, and anything that was perceived as being in the way of "the music" was the enemy - and in the mind of the band, I stood in the way of the music. Somehow, "I" was married, but my husband was not????? Anyway, we separated.

I began dating other men, and thought the marriage was over.

My husband reached the depths of despair, because I had no idea that I had essentially gone into Plan B at the time, and he was aching.

He came home. A new man. (Well, at least for about 28 years until his most recent affair.)

It was only after HE put his foot down with the band that they came to respect our relationship, and understand that HE wanted our marriage to work, that the band became respectful of me and treated me well.

And so did she.

Over the many, many years of this relationship with this same woman, she and I have become like sisters. I cannot imagine not having her in my life. I love her, and in his way, my husband does also. But never do they cross the line, or have any communication that is not open to my eyes and ears.

Because that was the rule, and they BOTH agreed to it. Because

HE DREW THE LINE

Not me.

So, sit down with him, and explain your concerns in a calm and rational manner. And tell him that you need HIM to set the limits, because otherwise, it looks like YOU being jealous, which isn't the case. It is HIM placing a protective limit on your marriage, fighting for your marriage, and you need him to do that.

This may mean that all emails, telephone calls, and in-person contacts with her include you at all times. This was the case for me and my sanity and protection of our marriage when we reconciled. My husband and the woman in question were both more than willing to do this. That's because my H and she did NOT have a relationship that was inappropriate, and were more than willing to show that to me.

Give him the task to protect you, and ask him to protect you in this way. If he won't do that, I think it is then that you have something to worry about.

I would also tell him that, as well.

It's worth a shot.


SB

SB, you do understand that this woman is not in his band, right? He has no reason whatsoever to be communicating with her. He shouldn't be communicating with any woman, outside of female relatives. Unfortunately, she has been fighting this same battle with him for several years to no avail.

I thought she was in the band. The way she told the story, I thought the woman was a band member. Now, I don't know WHO is in the band????

If she's a "groupie" then NO WAY does this woman talk to the husband.

Groupies are a whole nuther story.

I know about them too......

Groupies are wholly inappropriate as "friends", Sandi. They are not friends to the marriage at all. If your husband is a "groupie" to this band, then HE has a fantasy that is problematic. either way:

DEFINITELY the groupie thing is a problem. What happens in this dynamic is that the non-member of the band builds up an entire fantasy about the musician. The reality is that the very same thing that attracts these groupies to musicians ends up destroying the relationship - the passion for music ends up being too much for them and when it sometimes comes before everything else in their lives; the creativity is difficult to understand when it happens at 2 in the morning and they WILL NOT STOP playing the same three chords over and over and over; there's more, but believe me, living with a musician is NOT what it's cracked up to be on TV.

Groupies hold on to this fantasy life, that they will be with a "star", that they will be "rich", that they will have songs written and sung for them, that they will be in this whirlwind of fame.......it has another life altogether. And that fantasy is difficult - because groupies will then say, "well, I want to be friends, I love the music".

I once told a woman, "If I see you again around this band, you will hear the music - you will hear HARPS!" She wasn't a groupie much longer. She was husband-hunting - hunting MY husband. The whole time I was confronting her, my husband was watching us from the stage, and couldn't do anything but play his guitar, sing, and watch with worried eyes as I nearly got into a fist-fight. I didn't have to, I was so crazy that this girl thought I was loooooney, and she left and never came back (this was one of his ONS early in our marriage).

Anyway, I digress.

My daughter is now a musician, and has difficulty finding men to date who are not attracted to the stage persona. Fortunately, however, she recognizes this difference, and has met a man "offstage, off-persona, off-music", and asked her friends not to discuss it with him until later. They all did, and she eased him into the idea of the music thing, being on tour for several weeks at a time, and all of that. They've been dating about four or five months now, and he's very good with it - he's asking me for advice on things, because he knows I've been there. A good guy, with lots of potential.

Sandi,
Your husband needs to understand that he's back at putting things at risk again. He doesn't see that.

Do the Harleys have something for this?

SB

Hi Melody and Schoolbus,

Busy day today. No time to get on the computer.

The woman is in my husband's band. They would practice once a week and members of the band would go out afterwards for a few drinks usually. After gigs, the group would go out and often they would not leave the bar until 2 in the morning. I would not usually go with them--I would sometimes go to the concerts but because of the kids I would go home.

I did talk to my husband last night after he got home from work. He said that he understood how I felt BUT I had nothing to worry about. He kept talking about how much he loves me and would hate to hurt me. What I couldn't get across--or he wouldn't hear is that this type of contact hurts me and our marriage.

He didn't get that this kind of mushy talk is detrimental to our relationship as he doesn't see any harm coming from this. He believes that her husband would have no trouble reading my husband's emails to her and so my husband thinks that it is OK. I told him that it wasn't OK to me and that is what is most important.

We just stopped talking before we began to argue. I don't think that anything is resolved--I realize that this is how most of our disagreements end--they run out of steam and things remain the same. I did not get what I wanted--which is a cessation of this type of contact. He got what he wants--which is to continue.

I don't feel that the conversation is over yet. Tomorrow is another day and I want to reopen the conversation and get to a resolution.

Do you think that this is a good idea?

Sandy

I think I would just tell him "Honey, I love you, and I know you love me too. Your contact with the woman is very hurtful to me, and I need you to respect my feelings about it."

Then he will go blah, blah, blah, blah.

You answer "Nonetheless, your contact with her is very hurtful to me".

Continue the broken record, and don't get sidetracked into arguing. Repeat as needed.

Believer,
Thanks. I'll keep it short and to the point. I will say exactly that. I know that I will feel better to make my request straightforward.

Then I'll watch/observe and see if he will do as he says or goes "underground" (going to coffeeshop together once a week etc. which they had been doing during the school year).

If he doesn't meet the boundary then I have to have a plan. I'll be optimistic but this is my question. What can I do if he doesn't follow through and continues to email/spend time together when I'm at work etc.

This is the part that I need to get straight in my head.

Thanks for the coaching folks. Your thoughts and care means a lot to me.

Sandra

Sorry, SB, you were right and I missed that they worked together. Even so, they should not be in any communication at all outside of work.


Oh yes! But you also need to decide what your own boundary is and what you will tolerate. Give him a chance to prove that he can respect your boundaries.

Tell him you are giving him this chance to demonstrate that he does cares for you enough to stop doing anything that hurts you.

And if he refuses to end contact, you will know that he does not care about your feelings and is not willing to do what it takes to affair proof your marriage and can act accordingly.

You can choose to live in a marriage that is vulnerable to affairs, where your H does not care or respect you or you can choose not to. The choice is entirely up to you. It all depends on what you are willing to settle for.

Before I go to bed I just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. It means a lot.

Sandi

This is what you have to tell us. This is completely contingent upon what you are willing to tolerate.

I had a similar issue with my H about 4 yrs ago. He was a freeloader in our marriage [now a buyer]. I made a decision that I was not interested in settling for second best anymore and decided to move on. He suddenly rose to the challenge and changed the behavior that was threatening our marriage. He changed from a freeloader to a buyer because I made him come up with the purchase price. No more free rides from me.

However, if I had not been willing to protect my boundary and refuse to settle for less, I would still be GETTING LESS.

So, if you choose to settle for less, Sandy, that is what you will get. If you put a higher price on yourself and give him the opportunity to pay it, I suspect he will pay it.

In other words, because I placed a higher value on myself, my husband does too NOW; I am valuable to him. He respects me much more and is willing to do the things necessary to demonstrate CARE in our marriage.