Lindy,


And, if you're interested in the other side of that story, you might try reading: The Jury is In.

It goes chapter by chapter and examines Josh McDowell's research from another perspective. Information is often disputed. Some things can be proven as facts and are not widely disputed - such as gravity. (I haven't seen anyone seriously dispute that it exists .. which doesn't mean no one is..)

Josh McDowell's assertions have been pretty widely disputed - which doesn't necessarily prove them false or true. It just means that they haven't been codified into something I would stand on as a 'fact.' Others, of course, do what they like with the information.

As for predestination; I don't believe in it. I am an atheist and I have to say that it tickles me just a little bit to see people arguing against an invisible puppeteer in the sky and yet FOR the existence of God (the Christian God, specifically). How many times have I seen people attribute good things that happen to them TO God? If He does the good things, then why not the bad? And, if he really doesn't DO anything directly because it would interfere with free will, then it seems awfully silly to offer him praise for "miracles."

All that being said, like the rest of the board, I suspect that the key contributions to your H's affair were: opportunity and desire. He wanted to indulge. He had the chance. He didn't think there was any (or enough) danger and he took the plunge. I'm pretty sure he never expected things to turn out the way they did. I doubt he did it TO hurt you or, at least, I sincerely hope not.

"There are no accidents."

It depends on what you mean. I believe some things are truly random such as the next position an electron is going to jump to within a molecule.

I believe some things you do that are choices are made with so little information that you may as well call it accidental because there was no way to know what was going to happen - would you board a plane if you knew it would crash?

I also believe that people lie to themselves or minimize the foresight they probably have in determining situations sometimes out of selfishness, greed, or laziness. Most drunk drivers don't intend to kill people. Yet, we don't call those collisions accidents because there is so much evidence of the increased chances of injury when driving drunk.

I don't think your H's affair was an accident nor "fate." He had enough information to know that if you found out that it would devastate you emotionally -- otherwise he would have cheerfully told you about it over coffee instead of hiding it at all.

Just my $.02,

Mys

Your friendly, neighborhood athiest

You do understand the difference between a puppeteer and someone doing something for you, right? For example, if I bring you a nice piece of pie, that is not the same as controlling your every action and reaction as would a puppeteer.

The difference is that God is not an anonymous cosmic "puppeteer" who makes people do things against their will. Never does God claim to be a puppeteer who controls us as puppets.

Secondly, while you may not agree with the evidence of God, at least there IS some evidence. In the matter of predestination, there is no evidence, no nothing, just a speculative theory based on..........nothing. Huge difference.

LS,
If I could chime in with my two cents here;
There really is no such thing as fate when it comes to the commission of sin. We, as sinners, are all predesposed towards it, but nonetheless, can choose not to do so. God has gone so far as to put His only son on earth to prove that this type of thinking is a fallacy, and not to be believed.

Jesus was a man and yet never sinned in His entire lifetime.

It's so easy to try to find a way to excuse the person who harmed us the most, rather than the truly hard work of forgiving them for choosing to bring such harm and destruction into our lives. Such a thought, is often, unbearable. thus we look for other excuses, such as fate, etc., to not examine that it was indeed free will choice to be a destroyer.

Sometimes, it briefly helps, but in the long run will not serve your healing and recovery well at all.

Your H, as others have said, made his choice and never considered you and you devastation in the process. My W did the same. It hurts like [email]He@@[/email] but notheless, there it is.

You replied to Resilient:

Well I, like you, am also 58 years old, and was equally embarrased at my exam. Unlike you, however, I did not escape the magic bullet, and will have to live with and take my STD to my grave.

What concerns me, is the fact that you stated I wish you would rethink that position. You can indeed, be forgiving, again, if you choose to do so.

Why don't we leave fate to God and live with forgiveness, not excuses, which is something much more a part of the control we actually have in life.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Good,
Another view, more a little in line with my beliefs in that I have always asked "if God gets credit for miracles-why not the same for the bad stuff"?

I know my H had opportunity and obviously desire. I know he did it to intentionally (or so he says) hurt me to get even with me for leaving him in the first place. Does that make sense-it did to him in his drunken state, still does not to me as I was not divorcing him, only separating to see the 'forest for the trees" thing and a desperate act to get his attention and stop drinking, instead he drank more and had 2 mo A but no problem ending it when discovered, in fact I asked and he admitted it to me.

Discussions on the existence of God never go well on this board so why don't we just agree on what we agree on.

Predestination is bunk.

Mys

Again, here's the neighborhood atheist chiming in... but my guess would be that the bad things fall under the influence of "Satan." From everything I've heard (and I'm not saying any of it is correct) Satan seems to have no such compunctions about interfering with free will - or if he's not that powerful, at least attempting to influence it through temptation.

Mys

Your friendly, neighborhood atheist

Lindy, while you are making your reading list, add some of the refutations of Jeffery Jay Lowder's The Jury is In. He is also widely disputed. He is an athiest, btw. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

Its best to gather all of the facts, instead of taking my word or myschae's word about anything. Don't take my word, just let the facts speak for themself.

Finally, something we agree upon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Is he an alcoholic?

TWO things we agree on. Woohoo! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

ok, do you think Oprah is a silly broad? We could be on a roll here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Heh. I don't think I've ever called anyone a "silly broad" in my life -- I do think she's hypocritical and way over hyped. I think that's close enough.

Mys

ok, I think I am getting a consensus that predestination is folly. I can live with that. Agreed upon. I even asked my H if he thought it was "fate' that created his A. He said no, he knew what he was doing, guess I should have asked him all this first.

Is he an alcoholic, well I think so. The definition I have heard is that if it interferes with your life and relationship, you are. He drank almost daily, only beer, but had no problem giving that up. He has been sober 2 yrs and just told me tonight that he sees who I am clearer than he ever has and appreciates me. That being what I wanted him to do when I moved and instead he has A which compounded any problems before.

I think he just needed rescuing, which I play that role very well. He is PA as many are but more so and dug in when I requested the drinking to stop. Plus a few more issues unresolved and I choose to move. I do not believe he would have had an A if I had not moved, he liked his life of drinking and doing what he wanted and having the little woman home.I hurt him and he let his false drinking pride get p----- off and he retaliated. I read Dr. Harley believes being apart is an invitation for an A and it sure was in this case.

Well enough venting for one day and wow, those were some discussions. I have to face the munchkins for the first time in the morning and it is going to be a loooooooooong day.

ML -noticed your D Day was almost 7 yrs ago, since mine is almost 2yrs, and I am not fully recoved, how long did it take you?

That is my problem, I don't take anyone's word for this or that, but how do you gather all the "facts" when one side has these facts and the other has these facts so which "facts" are "facts"- that is my confusion. I think you believe which side you are personally most comfortable with, in my case, I don't know which side I am most comfortable with.

lindy sue ~ in Al-Anon, we call "rescuers" what they really are...which is enablers.

One thing that enablers do is make excuses for the bad choices that others make.

You are so right, I enabled him for years prior to separation. I should have gone to Al Anon and got some help but all I did was hit my head against a brick wall with demands and yelling and fighting. My part of downfall of marriage.

By rescuing I meant he needed rescuing from himself and to his credit has pulled himself out of his hole-I think I just gave him incentive with a second chance to prove he is worth it. He is proving himself so right now.

Since you must be familiar with alcoholics and more informed than I, does his behavior with the A fall in line with what an alcoholic might do. Not to say all alcoholics will have A's but are they more predisposed-so to say.
After I moved, he also lost a good 30 yr job and all just (in his mind at that time) went downhill for him. I hope I am not trying to excuse his behavior -just trying to understand it, which I still have trouble with.

Myschae, for someone who doesn't want to talk much about Jesus Christ and God, you sure seem to have no compunction about ridiculing other's faith in God and Christ, with little apparent understanding of what are the basic principles.

I can understand that, though, because as an atheist, you deny the very possibility of any living God and only adhere to random chance and physical processes.

Should you ever wish to actually discuss the issue, I'll make myself available to you, but as long as it's going to be just "stone throwing," which IS your choice by the way, I choose not to participate nor "threadjack" Lindy's thread.

I believe that Lindy has gotten an answer to her question and I believe she has stated that she identifies herself with you as another atheist, or at least an "unbeliever" in God. So it would appear that this thread has served it's purpose, don't you think, without turning it into a Theological debate.

Nope, never stated I am an atheist, or non-believer- said I am still questioning and looking for answers. Some people have faith and just that- "faith" and they don't have to question- that is truly a gift and must be very comforting and peaceful. I am trying to find that place.

Well, the truth should never be concluded based on "comfort," that makes no sense. The way you come to an informed conclusion is by gathering all the facts and thoroughly researching your subject. Facts are facts and are not exclusive to a "side."

Taking an objective view of the facts should not be a problem if your goal is to find TRUTH. If your goal is to just "feel comfortable", then there is no need to research anything. You can just remain ignorant and feel "comfortable." Which is what many people do.

Okay Lindy, so are you saying you do have questions about God and Christ and would like to sincerely discuss them? If so, I for one, would be willing to discuss them with you.

You do seem to misunderstand what you are calling "just faith" and seem to confuse it with "abandoning rational thought." That's not what genuine belief in Christ is all about nor it is what real Christianity is all about. One example, if I may. The Bible clearly teaches that believers are to love God with all their heart, soul, and mind. That is what faith is. Can it begin as a sort of "blind faith?" Yes, but that's only the beginning, not the end. Maturing in the faith requires asking questions and learning in much the same way that a baby begins with just milk and faith in Momma to provide it and to love him/her. But Maturing involves growing and learning, so a Christian does not "check his/her brains at the door when they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

So, if you are not an atheist and not a "non-believer," what DO you believe?