BR,
You stated, over on Frozen's thread, that you were not impressed with my posts. Could you explain what you mean? I know you have said that I play the victim and feel sorry for myself. And you say that Frozen has earned her way out.

I am truly curious about myself from your perspective. I am looking at this in this way.

A person who is not interested in personal growth might surround themselves with people that tell them what they want to hear and approve of them.

However, a person interested in growth will see that some don't approve or agree with them and inquire as to why to analyze the situation.

I am being the latter. I do want to grow. I want to know what flawed thinking and words you saw from me, and what would be a better way to see and think?

My interest is growth. Thanks for your time.

Hi Patriot,

Because I think that you are wallowing in self pity. You are selfishly indulging in self-flagellation in public - for what I am not sure. To convince Froz of your sincerity? To get people to approve or praise you?

I don't care so much about the WHY of the affair.

I really want to know WHY you married Froz. I think that was...if anything...even more selfish than the affair...to drag her through "recovery" .. always mouthing just enough to keep her around...which is what I suspect is going on here now.

Why on earth should she stay and drag you along behind her?

Honestly, I have almost zero patience for this kind of crap.

A couple of years ago, it was not so easy to sort out what the real problem was...you or her ... or both.

I'd say it was both. She has done the work since then, taken responsibility, put a large dent in her own issues, you haven't.

I wasn't so sure about you even back then, but I was hoping one of the other male posters would take you on and call you on your stuff...my focus was always to help Frozen get stronger so she could see clearly and make good decisions for herself. No one really challenged you back then...and you haven't really been challenged now. I still don't care to take you on....simply because your wife is the person I have chosen to help, and I can't do it for both of you - I'm no therapist.

I am not saying she should dump you, but if she choose to now, I certainly would not argue that she was acting too hasty.

If I may -


I've had the same reaction to your posts, Patriot. But I think you do this because you, like all P/As, are very, very heavily invested in remaining a Victim.

If you're a Victim, nothing is your fault.

If nothing is your fault, you do not deserve any consequences for your actions.

Life is therefore good.

Right?
Mulan

I think in this case you nailed it Mulan.

I thought I was being remorseful. I thought I was being sorry for what I did. But it wasn’t. But it has been hard for me to understand that taking an action to stop the hurtful behavior is the best remorse. Or at least that is the message I have gotten.


Well that is too bad, because I put a lot of effort into that. Sure, I moved slower than just about anyone I know was happy about, but I am not here to please you or them. That I choose to explore a personal issue in an attempt to grow from it was a great thing for me to do. Period. Weaker folks would not have done it.

And weaker folks would worry about their image here and not do it in public. I have been doing it in public so you could call it. So, funny… vulnerable and open. Did anyone notice? Frankly who cares? I noticed and I did what I thought was right. End of story.


Marrying her was not only about love, I admit. It was not only about beautiful romance and flowery fairtale love… It had ugly beginnings and that is what it is. Can’t change it. If it is a showstopper, then we should stop wasting everyone’s time and call the game for rain. Yet, if it is not a showstopper, and it is in the past, why does it matter now? Why I married her then was simply an extension of the same behaviors of that period of time. Selfishness. Immaturity. Fear of abandonment. You already knew I had an affair. She can blame her numbness on this decision 1 month later all she wants, but the fact is, she made it. I made it. We both walked into this like stupid children. And now here we are. I accept this. I see places I need to change. And now I am doing that.

I have been POJAing my [censored] off. And frankly I like it. It is nice, when she is not all worried about getting screwed by me, to have a nice negotiation and solve an issue. Hopefully, with time and consistency, she will be able to relax more in our relationship and be a little easier to get along with.

I may be late on all doing the correct steps in recovery, but I am doing something. And I don’t think she should just be happy with what I give her. I think she has every right to feel however she wants to feel. But, as you continue to say, that I haven’t “done the work” is an ignorant statement. Looks to me like I am DOING the work. Probably defensive, and I don’t mean to be., I mean to be open and to stand up for myself. Because I respect me. If you fail to see progress on things I have been working on, too bad. I am not fooling myself. I know that I have had success on things I have focused my time on.

Self-respect was a big problem That I can address. I can address that by saying , Hey… I was wrong when I had an affair, but I don’t have to just sit and accept attacks because I think I deserve it. But I am being honest with myself and trying to make sure I don’t stave off consequences I deserve.

Mulan,

So what would recommend for me?

instead of playing the victim, I could _____________

How do you show someone that you are willing to deal with consequences? You seem to think I am not. I am at fault for lots of things. I am willing to deal with those consequences. I will not go happily into it, but I will deal with them all the same.

Should I be happy about it? Is that it? Or should I do something else I am not seeing here? The fact is, as I have matured and some things have become clear to me, I have responded in a mature fashion and made it a priority. My greatest weapons against P/A is to talk to Frozen about my feelings and to POJA.

Do you know of any others? It is not ok for her to lose and me to win. No one really wins in that.

you asked me if life was good?

I can answer that. No, it isn't Life is pretty crappy right now. We are both on guard from each other most of the time. She says some really ugly things to me. I hate being around her. I feel sorry for myself because no one things I am a good person. My wife, who should be my greatest ally, is my adversary. She has the kinds of problems with her daughter that she has with me, and she seems to make it a point to highlight my failings when the daughters come out. I let her say these ugly things to me because I dserve it... and that is what finds me hating to be around her. I didn't protect myself from her LBs and thus I lost love for her. There is a huge amount of conflict in any given day over the simplest things, like whats for dinner. If she asks me what I want, I have to answer and confirm and confirm before she even begins to just move on and make dinner.

The list goes on. Is life great? No. Not even close. Look what I did to this relationship and now that I am left holding the bill, this sucks.


But I can either continue bitching about holding the bill, or I can pay it.

Trying to impress you and BR or anyone else here isn't paying the bill.

Also, mulan, you talk like I haven’t done anything to change. Like I have done nothing. Like I am perfectly happy having you criticize me for being P/A and letting frozen lose.

Is this what you think? Is this what you see?

Pat92:

I liked BR's point about some Man around here taking you under thier wing and making you work thru your issues.

Ain't gonna be me. Darned if I still have some to work thru.

But you asked the question about "Why you had the affair" because you were tasked with it by the Harleys.

I told you then, and BR says the same, It doesn't matter. (although, I hope you answered the info for the Harleys in a successful manner)

I could give you ten REASONS WHY I had mine, and why I stayed in it, and why I made those choices to continue hurting others.

But many of them would end up making me sound like the victim of other peoples opinions, choices and desires.

You had the A because you got something from OW and was able to have it. So did I.

Now seek what that is from Froz, and try to get it.

As for this line:

"I may be late on all doing the correct steps in recovery, but I am doing something."

Those deck chairs need attention on the Titanic as well. Make sure the things you ARE WORKING on are the right ones.

Don't be a victim anymore. It happened, its over, and now your life can truly begin.

I read this: "We are both on guard from each other most of the time." Drop YOUR guard.

And then this: "I let her say these ugly things to me because I dserve it... " NO, you don't. If you have improved, and redeemed yourself, and protected yourself from those behaviors that caused you to have an affair, then you NO LONGER deserve it.

Froz has to do her work on her own LB's and DJ's.

Living an existence like that isn't MB.

LG

Pat,

your responses are full of poor me, I am a victim, and Froz is mean to me. You go from sulking and pouting to this ridiculous "I deserve to be treated badly" stuff that is just so over the top that it is clearly an attempt to manipulate people on the board and to get them on your side against Froz.

You choose to marry this woman and you choose to stay.

You are not a victim no matter how hard you cling to that identity.

YOU are responsible for 50% of the crap you are living in right now.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Froz.

Instead of whining about what she is doing, focus on what YOUR contribution is and change that.

"Instead of playing the victim, I could be completely honest about what I REALLY want in all things, whether it's what I want for dinner or whether I want to stay married. That way, other people can deal with me on an honest basis and we can reach some kind of agreement that makes us both happy. When both are happy, nobody is a victim - including me."


By dealing with them.

With no whining, pleading, ducking or excuses.

You spilled milk on the floor? You get a rag and clean it up.

You don't let the milk sit there while you protest and whine and explain that you're not really a bad person for spilling the milk and it wasn't your fault and maybe you shouldn't have to clean it up since you didn't mean to spill it and why doesn't anybody understand that?

You just get a rag and clean it up.

That's how a grown-up deals with consequences.


If you have taken this to heart, then you have indeed made real progress.


Of course. That's only natural. You have made each other The Enemy.


She's terrified of you because she cannot trust you. Anger + fear = RAGE


Why do you believe no one thinks you are a good person?


Yup. My H made me The Enemy too, many years ago, not because we didn't get along but because he was afraid I'd interfere with his girlfriends at work. He used P/A tactics to shove me hard out of the way - PASSIVE/aggressive, not aggressive, because he's SUCH a great guy and SUCH a good person that he would never DIRECTLY shove his own wife out of the way to chase office p*ssy - and now he can't fathom why I am not there and why I am emotionally terrified of him and why I seem to be The Enemy.


That's because she has learned not to trust you. She's learned that if she asks you what you want for dinner and you say, "meat loaf" it will turn out later that you are behaving like a victim because you really wanted fried chicken but didn't say so.

I would tell Froz to ask you *one time* what you want for dinner and then take you at your word. Case closed. If your word later turns out not to be true, that is 100% on you. She should just say "Oh, I'm sorry you chose not to be honest with me," and then get her purse and go to the mall for a while.

How do you regain someone's trust? By being 100% honest with them 24/7 in all things. That's how. It's just that simple and just that difficult.


My first response to this is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You asked me for my opinion. I am giving it to you. I am trying to help you as best I can. But I am not here to make you feel good. That's for your wife to do.

Honesty, Pat. Honesty in all things 24/7. Honesty that is NOT used as a weapon but honesty that is used to build and heal and protect.

Honesty.
Mulan

Here's the thingi Pat...

I'll consider you moving in the right direction when you start asking How to be a better husband, instead of whining about your mean wife.

Happy Birthday, Patriot!

Happy Birthday, ya silly OKIE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

thanks

Happy Birthday Mr. Patriot.

and many more.

Mr. Wondering

Happy Birthday Pat!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the previous subject...Ahem...For the past couple of nights, based on Mimi's PA Theory thread, Mr. W and I have been talking about the possibility of some of our own PA behaviors...I was SOOOOOO reluctant to want to call my own behaviors "PA"...It was only the "label" that bothered me, NOT looking at the wrongness of my behaviors/actions...When I questioned myself about just why that label bothered me so much, one thing kept popping to mind and I shared it with Mr. W who completely understood...I did NOT want to be "pigeonholed" like Pat has been...It *seems* to me that he gets beaten senseless with the PA stick so often here and on another board that we all belong to...Mr. W agreed...I honestly don't see that there is anything that Pat can say here or there that won't be "suspect"...It's hard for me to see how he will be able to overcome this...At what point will he REALLY be a VICTIM of being LABELED PA? He sure as he[i][/i]ll can't say that, yanno? Just imagine the lynching...Is he just supposed to shut up and take it forever? Not saying that that is what Froz is doing to him AT ALL...I don't know what goes on at their house obviously, I'm only basing this on what goes on on the boards, but it occured to me, will he ever be able to have a legitimate complaint again? Insight on this would be greatly appreciated...

Mrs. W

P.S. Just want to apologize to Pat & Froz for talking about them in the third person! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

P.P.S. Also, it is obvious that Froz has done a TON of work on boundaries, etc...Color me impressed there...She's helped me understand a lot on that subject that I didn't before...love her for that...

P.P.P.S. Just HAD to add this cuz I KNOW Pat LOVES "PS's" SOOOOOOOO Much!!! MRS. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. Wondering,

I really do not understand your point of view.

What difference does it make to call the behavior PA, inappropriate, abusive, dishonest...??? Does it change what it is or the effects of it?

He gets beaten senseless with the PA stick? You are feeling sympathy for someone who hurts someone with his behvaior and then gets called on it and asked to take responsibility for it?



Translation: called on behaviors



And it is the label that is to blame for his lack of credibility? Or is he responsible for his own lack of credibility?



This is complete wayward thinking here.

It sounds exactly like a wayward telling others that they should be given trust, instead of taking responsibility for the behaviors and choices that led to the destruction of trust.

And just as with foggy wayward spouses...they can overcome the lack of credibility by taking responsibility instead of blaming others and by consistently displaying trustworthy behavior.



At the same point that a practicing WS becomes a victim of being labeled a WS.



I can imagine the lynching. It's probably the same lynching that any WS receives here when they are not taking responsibility for their actions and instead choose to view themselves as the victim.

And any poster who calls that WS a victim and offers them sympathy for the consequences of their actions is only furthering to enable them to avoid taking responsibility, in order that they might choose to truly change course.



I honestly don't believe you have a clear representation of what goes on.



Have you ever noticed that there IS no complaint until someone is attempting to hold him responsible for his own behavior?

Froz...

As always, you and I are FAR better off talking to each other than typing...I completely SUCK at getting my points across in this format and I realize it...I do apologize if I offended you, please know it was not my intent...Often I do feel like Pat takes a "beating" around here for "PA Behavior"-perhaps my perception is off, I'm just being honest about what I perceive...Mr. W said last night that it seems as though Pat's back is against the wall...We realize that we aren't omniscient and could certainly be wrong though...

As far as me being "called on my behaviors"-I am always VERY willing to look at me with a microscope, and that is the God's honest truth...Mr. W will back me regarding that 100%...I may screw up, but when I do, you can bet that I will own it and do all that I can to change it and make amends for it...

If it's "foggy wayward thinking", well that REALLY sucks, because Mr. W and I are BOTH guilty of it...YIKES...We will certainly discuss it and see what needs adjusting...

This last part is not really to or about you, as I don't notice this as a "trait" or "habit" of yours, I would love your input though...Often on the boards PA behavior is discussed as though it is cold, calculated and carried out with malice aforethought-like the offending party sits around and plots how to do this to someone...Perhaps that is true for some people, though that would seem completely sociopathic in my eyes...When PA is discussed here, the words are spat out with a venom and hatred that is palpable to me...I just see PA behavior as much more subconcious than that...Around here it *seems* that PA has become equal to DELIBERATE EVIL VILLIAN...Dear Lord, tell me WHO would want to be placed in that category? Does that make sense to you?

Mrs. W

I'm quite sure I should stay out of this discussion, as I don't truly understand what PA behavior is. It could be mine or even, my w's for all I know.

That being said, what I do see a lot of in the thread and others from you guys, is a lot of anger and mistrust. That is to be expected under the circumsatances. It was the case between myself and my W for quite some time.

I am now 5 + years past Dday, but it took almost all of those years for me to begin to trust my W again. That's pretty sad, but it is what it is.The consequence of an affair is wide reaching, and but for the grace of God, can be fatal in so many cases.

So if I may, I would like to shift the subject to something else that I had to discover on my own. The subject is true forgiveness. Plenty of books, etc, out therre about the subject, but, it really boils down to one thing and one thing only. It is called becoming vunerable again!

Yep, vunerable. Putting your very precious heart in your spouses's hands, and saying, this is all yours, treat it well.

After a tremendous breach of trust in your M, that is probably the hardest thing to do. On Dday, you probably told yourself, "I will never again allow my heart to be vunerable to anyone again. I know I did. And it took almost all of those 5 years for me to do that again. Sad, true, but a consequence of her A. I don't regret it because it was very necessarry.

I think that the both of you need to come to a moment in your life wherre you need to decide if you can be vunerable to each other again. This is a restoration of trust, the foundation of your M, and completly necessary for forgiveness to have any real fruit.

Sorry if I've intruded into the other aspects of this thread, but what I don't see, is a completion of the forgiveness process. You seem to be talking all around the final issue that seperates you. This, of course, is JMHO.

Hope I haven't intruded.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I think perhaps 2 points are relevant here.

1. Pat labeled himself as P/A - this was not a label imposed on him by the board, it is his own self description of his behavior.

2. Forgiveness is nearly impossible when the same behavior that led to the affair is still ongoing.

If you go back and read his posts from 2 years ago, you'll see that little has changed. He's still *the* victim in his mind.

He started this thread asking why I had told Frozen that she had earned her ticket out of the marriage if she so chose. He got my opinion, and no it's not nice.

It's been 3 years for them? And it is not like he has not had tools and resources available to him. He can't plead ignorance.

I suffered through a false recovery with my husband for 3 months. It was ******, trying to do my part and heal while my husband sat back while mouthing all the right stuff, but not really doing anything.

Granted Pat has not been in an affair that we know of, so I hope that his behavior has been less cruel...

However, three years of allowing a betrayed partner struggle...while not lifting a finger, except to mouth the right things to appease people or throw them off balance is just unexcusable.

Thank God when my husband came back for real, he was onboard and pulling his weight.

That's how I forgave. That's how I trusted again. My husband's behavior CHANGED profoundly from what I had known before the affair.

If he wants forgiveness, he's going to have to "man up" and start pulling his own weight, regardless of what Froz is doing.

How many of us did that, while our spouses betrayed us to our faces?

Pat needs to stop whining and do some work instead of complaining that she's angry. What he has to do here is not nearly as difficult as Plan A in the face of an affair.

If she's angry, perhaps he should be addressing the lovebusting that fuels the anger instead of getting on here to get the board wound up in his defense.

Pat and Froz,

I don't really know or think whatever I have to say would make much difference to either one of you, but, I will say a few things that I hope the two of you will reflect upon.

All this talk about P/A behavior and and blame talking is not goin to benefit either one of you.
IMVHO, you are overthinking the entire issue that divides you. Without the completion of the forgiveness process, you will always be seperated from each other by a glass wall that you cannot perceive. You will touch each other through this glass wall, but rightfully so, it will not seem real.

It will take a tremendous effort on both your part, to break down this wall that seperates you.
It will begin to crumble with true forgivesness, not with bringing up past hurt. the two of you must let go and let God heal your M.

What I see is two very stubborn people who somehow expect a just compensation for the hurt they have had to endure. This is no compenasation that will ever be good enough to make things perfect again.
Accept that and find a way to make your love for each other bigger than the the hurt.This is a time to make you great big love for each other, go to work for both of you. LOVE IS THAT BIG, AND THAT POWERFUL. MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU!!!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry