Can anyone tell me if it is possible to remain married to someone who you can’t trust, and still have peace, joy, and a healthy environment for the children? The PAs are long in the past, and we had a great recovery for the past 4 years plus. I found out 2 weeks ago that FWH had been emailing and talking to a W he met who is unhappily married. He told her about MB principles, ENs, etc. I do believe there was no PA although she definitely wanted one. I found out when her H called me. The 3 of them agreed to NC. I explained to H that even if nothing happened, what hurt most was that he lied… first by not telling me about this W and then when I got the phone call and H waited a day or 2 before telling me the truth even though he knew I was suspicious and upset. It turns out after a week of NC the “OW” started emailing and calling, and H did not turn her away although he tried at first. So this morning OW’s H calls me to let me know. I talked to OW and to my H, and I believe there was no PA. However, he lied even after he just got caught lying and saw what it did to me.

I do not want a separation or divorce. Most importantly I don’t want my kids to go through that, and to live in a single parent home. Second, financially it would change our lives in ways I am not willing to go… selling the house, changing schools. Third, I do not want to be a single parent. I would rather be roommates with H, or settle for a M without trust. But I can say that now… what would it mean in the long term… 10 years til the youngest goes to college?? I could really use some advice!!!

You can stay married for the children, but AS YOU CAN SEE, it will be impossible to be peaceful or joyful, unless you drink massive doses of booze with narcotics.

Adultery is as traumatic as being raped or the death of a child, and I don't know how anyone could ever be "peaceful" or "joyful" being raped on a daily basis. Women actually suffer NERVOUS BREAKDOWNS and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from dealing with adultery. It is nothing to play around with.

You won't be much help to your children if you are institutionalized with a nervous breakdown. So, trying to tolerate ABUSE for their sake is really not helpful to them at all, but to their detriment when their mother can't cope because of the mental problems she incurs from making herself available for ABUSE.

Not to mention the fact that your children will grow up thinking it is ok to do nothing while being abused. Do you want your daughters to grow up and tolerate abuse for the "sake of the children?" Or do you want them to learn how to set appropriate boundaries and have the NADS to protect themselves when they are under assault?

Apparently, your H has NEVER resolved the source of his previous affairs, so this will continue to happen until he does and takes steps to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage. Instead of worrying how you can live without trust, you should be asking how you plan to live with FUTURE affairs and what you intend on doing about it.

Welcome back. Did the two of you go to counseling after the PAs?

It sounds like your husband needs to learn to have some boundaries. He made the mistake of discussing the OW's marriage with her. Although he may have started out trying to just be helpful, he got caught up in a web. That happens a lot. That is why we advise that a male and female never discuss personal issues.

Has he EVER suffered any consequences for any of his affairs? For example, have you exposed his affairs to his family, your children, your family? Or are you helping him hide his dirty little secrets? [aka: ENABLING]

It would be interesting to know if the OW has posted here.

It doesn't sound as if Lucy's H has a proper understanding of MB principles. I'm worried that a poster might arrive here under the impression that it's fine to email members of the opposite sex under the cover of 'helpful advice'.

TA

Thanks for the replies.

MelodyLane, I am not living with adultery… I went through the trauma and took 2 years to recover, and then only with the help of ADs which I am still on. I am not tolerating abuse in that sense, I am asking about tolerating 2 lies for the sake of my family. I am asking about raising 2 daughters in a household where I feel a need to hold back. How much worse is that than moving them to different house, different school, and having a single mother who knows and enforces her boundaries but is under the constant stress of being a single parent? Yes he was exposed and unfortunately we lost our closest friends because of it. His relationship with my parents is permanently altered as well. I assume you are not suggesting that I should have aired his dirty secrets to our 3 and 8 year old daughters at the time.

Believer, yes we did go to counseling. At the same time we spent a ton of time outside of counseling following the guidance of MB. At that time, H set boundaries which was something he had never done before. He has done a great job at staying within those boundaries until recently. You are absolutely correct… he started out trying to be helpful and to work through his own issues at the same time. It’s not the first time he has helped another woman, or man, with marital issues. It’s the first time he did not tell me about it, and the first time that it got out of hand. It looks like adding this to the list of what not to do is a good next step.

TogetherAlone, I remember you. I doubt OW has posted here. She has not had a PA, nor has her H. Perhaps she has looked at other areas of MB and might look at the divorce forum in the near future. My H does not use the forums, although he values the EN questionnaire and anything I tell him about the site, and has recommended the site to others.

So, the next step is to set this new boundary. That’s easy enough. H stuck to all his boundaries for 4 years, and is willing to do what it takes now. And even though rationally I know it takes both of us to work on the M, right now I feel resentment and anger. Every M goes through rough spots. I feel like I’m “safe” for another few years but at some point he’ll feel like his needs aren’t being met and he’ll cross some other boundary. In the meantime he gets forgiveness and I go through life knowing there’s a high likelihood that at some point it’s likely I’ll get hurt again.

You are asking about living in a marriage with a serial cheater where it will happen again. And again, and again. Unless something is done about it. That is not in your childrens best interest. You may think it is the easiest way for you, but it really won't be when you have a nervous breakdown when it happens again.

I am not suggesting that you leave him, only that you make it conditional on his recovery and committment to affair proof the marriage.

You may feel you have "recovered" but it is all for naught unless your husband stops cheating. AS YOU CAN SEE. You are right back where you started, except worse off because this is a repeat affair.

I am not only suggesting that you air his dirty secrets to your children, but to your family and close friends. The more people who know, the better. I am suggesting that you take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to affair proof your marriage and that he take EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES to resolve his problem with serial cheating. If he does not recover, as he apparently didn't before, this will happen again and again. The first time, you were a victim, Lucy, now you are a VOLUNTEER.

Well, I can see part of the problem, Lucy. Handing him unearned "forgiveness" is a huge part of the problem. He should not be "forgiven" until he justly compensates you for his crime by affair proofing the marriage and getting into recovery. Handing him cheap, unearned forgiveness gives him no motivation whatsoever to change. That HELPS NO ONE, especially HIM.

Here is a good article about Dr. Harley's approach to "forgiveness":
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Dr.Harley:
Infidelity video: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

I fail to see how you can have your cake and eat it 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Staying in your home, keeping your lifestyle while your M goes south sends you in which direction? Makes both you and your H prime for another A, this time either one c/b the WS. Is your family's school location (children 3 & 8) and lifestyle, worth that? Many have moved and adjusted their lifestyle for less drastic reasons.

Btw, the emotional stress you are putting those children just to save their school and your lifestyle, is worse than any change. Children are highly adaptable. As long as your family is intact and has the right values (care, concern, etc.) then no matter where you live, you w/b happy.

Your outline is not a recipe for happiness. Rather it ia recipe to keep a status quo of which you will find greater misery down the road. But that is your choice.

What is looks like is that you both need MC (preferably from Steve H @ MB) for a recovery plan. You need closure and your H needs to help you get it. He needs to learn about radical honesty. I recommend you both read His Needs/Her Needs.

JMHO,
L.

I was married to a serial adulterer for 25 years, 7 A's (that I know of). IMHO you should require that he get help NOW with his problem or divorce him. This is a pattern of behavior that is very difficult to stop even WITH professional help.

In my case, I did the forgive and (try) to forget, we went to some counseling but WH would quit, WH made all the promises, seemingly behaved for a while, but then did it again...

Also, we did move a lot so moving away from the latest OW wasn't a problem for us. But the bigger problem wasn't really the latest OW, or the OW du jour, but the WH's pattern of serial adultery. Each time we moved we were taking the problem with us: WH

The first few times I did not do exposure. The last couple A's I did tell all our relatives and friends.

You are making a big mistake by assuming that if you do not divorce your WH you will get to stay married. I certainly understand your wanting to have financial security and to not have your children's family taken apart. But you have no assurance that your WH won't divorce you for an OW. That's what happened to me. I honestly loved my husband and naively believed he could/would change. He just got worse and worse. And in the end he treated me AND our daughters horribly and dumped us for an OW and her little girl. (She eventually dumped him for another man but WH hates me)

I now wish I had the last 30 years of my life back and had not wasted them on WH. I know adulterers say strange things while in the fog but I really do believe my WH never loved me. Normally a person who commits one adultery loves their spouse but feels they 'fell out of love' with their BS during the adultery fog. But IMHO with a serial adulterer they exist in the fog but manage to con us they are in love with us because it serves a purpose for them.
This is why I no longer believe my WXH will ever return from the alien state - he is and always was the alien - we just hadn't realized that before because he was such a skilled con artist.

I cannot stress enough how much damage my WXH inflicted on our daughters with the latest adultery and divorce PLUS his totally unrepentent attitude STILL 6 years past D-day, over 3 years since OW dumped him for good, and over 2 years since the divorce was final. I'm sure it would have been a LOT easier on me and my daughters if I had divorced WH ages ago!

I guess I'm having trouble with some of your responses because H did not have an affair... I do believe he was a serial cheater, until he got caught and then we worked on our M. I do know that it's possible that things have happened in the past 4 years that I do not know about, but that's true of any M and I trust my gut. I talked to H, to this W who was emailing him and who wanted to have a PA/EA with him, and to her H. She only recently let on that she had feelings for my H. I found out just as H was supposed to go on a business trip, and she was supposed to be in the same city, and he cancelled the trip (BEFORE I found out). I also know that in the past year H and I have let things slide, especially in the area of communication. I was having problems with my ADs and the side effects, and was concentrating on fixing that but it takes time.

I started this post when I "just found out"... about 2 lies, not about an affair. Yes it could have led to an A, but it didn't. Was it an EA? For her, definitely. For my H... I'd say he came too close for comfort. He was trying to extricate himself but that is one of his "flaws" that we are both aware of. When someone (male or female, young or old) starts a conversation with him, about anything including the weather, he finds it difficult to end the conversation.

So, I get that there is no middle ground here. We either end the M or we both work on it. We don't stay married in name only for the kids, for financial or any other reason. Given those 2 choices I choose the latter. That is definitely what H wants too. However there is still a betrayal to work through... not infidelity (so maybe I should have posted this in a different forum) but lying. H wants to address and fix the problems that in the last year made him/us/our M vulnerable. I feel like something else needs to happen first or at least at the same time. He is sorry, he is sick about it--literally, he is willing to do whatever I ask. I'm just not sure what to ask for.

Your husband needs to start practicing having boundaries. If it is true that this potential affair was nipped in the bud, it was just by luck.

You say that your husband has a flaw where he is unable to extricate himself from a conversation. He needs to change this. When a female comes to him for "advice", he needs to tell her that it would be inappropriate for him to discuss these matters with her, and leave it at that.

I work with all men and have for 30 years. We tend to get very close. But over the years, when their marriage came up, or problems with their wife, I steered clear. It is simple to do, and gets the point across quickly.

Lucy, your H has had an EA with this woman.[possibly a PA] People don't make plans to go meet someone in a hotel just because they are "friends." They don't lie about innocent "friendships." If someone's wife called up and accused you of an affair, would you deny it for 2 days? Of course not. You would tell the truth about the relationship and produce emails, etc to support your side. This is infidelity as much as you want to deny it. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

[have you even gone through his emails and read them?]

What really bothers me is that you didn't even know about it. Living with a serial cheater, you should be moving in like the Houston SWAT TEAM whenever he talks to another woman. You should have caught all this yourself. He should not even be TALKING to another woman, unless it is the cashier at McDonalds or his momma.

Yet it was her H who discovered this, not you. It was her husband who told you, NOT HIM. I AM AMAZED!

I know you think it is in your best interest to minimalize/deny this, but lets put this all into perspective. Your H, a serial cheater, HID his relationship with another woman from you. Her H called you up and told you they planned on meeting at hotel. Your H had even made the reservations. Your H's "story" [the story of a liar, btw] is that she was a lonely predator who chased him. The poor lamb, he just "finds it difficult to end a conversation." Yet, he did not tell you about this himself and then lied when you asked him about it after her husband called you. He also had made hotel reservations. [i suppose she knew he was going to be there by osmosis] People who have nothing to hide, don't hide, Lucy.

IT SCARES ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT. You are as foggy as him and it scares me that you believe all this. Your instincts are not good, Lucy, and you can't see how laughable his story is. Yet, you recite it as if it is truth. Your husband is still not telling you the true story. And THAT is the problem.

But, if you want to live like that so you can have someone support you, I would suggest massive doses of narcotics. My sister does quite well on about 3000mg of Vicodin a day. She is there, but not quite..........there. Maybe that will work for you.

Did he cancel the trip BEFORE the other husband found out or was suspicious? I guess that would be one of my questions, and I would verify his answer.

Post deleted by OkieDokie0

huh? So his excuse for lying is that he doesn't have the NADS to face conflict? good grief, how unmanly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Frankly, I wouldn't care why he lied, but only that he is destroying your love for him when he does it. Dishonesty is a HUGE lovebuster and if he wants to you to love him, he should stop. He will destroy your marriage by doing that.

Are you that much of an ogre when he tells the truth or is he just a pathological liar? Does he lie to others?

p.s. do you want to start your own thread so we don't sidetrack Lucy's thread?

Believer, can you tell me more about "steering clear" of male friends who bring up their marriage in conversation? How do you do this?

I found these 2 brief mentions in MelodyLane's link to the forgiveness letter, but I am not finding anything in the concepts with more info on this. I understand that it is advisable to avoid talking about marital problems to someone of the opposite sex, but it would help to have more about this to share with H.

"And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, [color:"red"] close friendships with those of the opposite sex, [/color] recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear."
"Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and [color:"red"] to avoid circumstances that might ignight an new affair [/color] should be part of the plan for recovery."

If you read the Harleys stuff about emotional needs, you will realize that when you allow someone to meet yours, or you meet theirs, there is a danger of starting an inappropriate relationship.

My job required me to be in close contact with a male work partner, all day long as we road in a truck to different jobs. Several times over the years, several men became too friendly. It started with them coming to me as a friend, but wanting to discuss private things about their marriage and wife.

Even though I didn't know about MB, I realized that the conversation shouldn't be going THERE. So I would tell them that they needed to discuss the problems with their wife. If they continued, I let them know that the conversation was inappropriate. One continued, and I told him I would inform his wife, and our boss. Then I requested to be work away from him. That ended it.

Now, the problem here is that YOU are asking how to stop these problems - your husband isn't. I'm afraid that he isn't all that interested in changing. Otherwise HE would be looking for a marriage site - HE would be getting counseling, HE would be working on better boundaries.

I may be wrong, but mainly he sounds like he is sorry that he got caught.

Did he cancel the trip BEFORE the other husband found out? Can you verify it?

A lot happened in a short period of time. The friendship started a few months ago, with emails related to conflict resolution at work. That evolved into sharing about conflict resolution at home. IF my H is telling the truth, she was talking about her issues and he was giving her advice but thinking about how some of this advice applied to himself as well. IF he is telling the truth, he was unaware that this W was developing feelings for him. He found out only shortly before her H called. My H had a business trip planned; he travels a lot. Yes he told her about it and, IF he is telling the truth, that was a dumb thing to do. IF he is telling the truth, I think what happened is that (1) he realized she had feelings and felt uncomfortable about this, (2) she let him know that her H found lingerie in her bag and that she told her H who my H was, (3) and I don't know which came first, 2 or 3, my H found out that some of the people he had planned to meet for business were unable to meet with him, and he decided to cancel the trip because of #1 and #3, and (4) her H called the house asking for H (and did not tell me who he was but I was suspicious) and then called H at work, at which point NC was agreed to. At that point, the trip was already cancelled. One or 2 days later, my H --without my asking--offered up a full explanation. IF my H is telling the truth, one week later this W sent him an email that looked like a group email with a story or poem or something. He hoped it was a mistake or a one time thing and did not respond. In a second email she said she missed him. He made the mistake of responding AND of not telling me; his response was (yes, according to him) sorry but there is NC. She responded to that. H SAYS he was just hoping this would go away, trying to get her to fix her own problems. One bad judgment call led to another... because he didn't tell me right away. 3 weeks before all this happened, H had asked me about doing the EN questionnaire together because it has been a while. He had made several attempts to work on our own marital problems (mostly lack of communication, a lot of this stemming from my struggles to get the right ADs while minimizing side effects).

My H deleted the emails. Her H was unable to send me anything because it was on W's computer. Her H was unable to tell me anything that was in the emails.

I am a smart woman. I know how this looks. I do not have my head in the sand. I know H could be leading a double life and making a complete fool of me. I also make a good salary and would manage if I felt that was the best course of action. I also know that without proof (such as seeing the emails) it is possible that he is telling me the truth. He offered up a lot of details. I checked his computer and phone records for 2 years after I discovered the cheating. When he uses his computer in the evening, he does so in the kitchen which is something we agreed to 4 years ago. He does not IM except to me and within his business. It is possible that the reason I didn't know what was going on was because there wasn't anything to know beyond what H has admitted to. Or, on the other extreme, because he hid it so well. How would I know, other than checking his computer (people delete things), his phone log (easy to delete there as well), hiring a PI (for what, the last 4 years?)? I am all for affair proofing my M. I will be setting up MC this week. I came back to this site. I am questioning whether I can trust H. I have pulled back out the book that helped save my M last time... Not Just Friends. I am asking what more/else I should do.