Hi everyone,

Just an update on J and me.

We celebrated 3 years together last week, of course as most know, on again/off again the first couple years.

No more break ups for J but he still tends to withdraw a little too much from our relationship and just life, and he still struggles with putting that ring on my finger.

Recently, I saw J starting to withdraw again and had enough so I broke up with J yet again…This time it was a short break up, probably around 2 or 3 days. J immediately wrote to me and asked me to please meet with him, so I did, during the days we were apart he had started writing again (as he seems to do during our breakups), trying to sort through his feelings, why he withdraws, how he feels about us…etc. He said, “I do want to marry you. I want to quit this cycle and I want to make this step but I am still worried because I am going back to school, into a new field, and have no job”…etc. etc… Some how I think I mentioned in desperation, “I think we need counseling.” J said, “I would go. Would you?” and I agreed.

I have a friend who majored in Psychology, she and her class had to attend these counseling sessions with a trained Psychologist. She highly recommended this to me but said it’s very unconventional. I called and got an appointment for us.

Last night was our first session. It went better than we thought for a first session. J was a little nervous, as it was his first time in counseling.

We had three people in front of us, one person was the Dr., the other two from what I remember were close to being Psychologist. Then seated on our right side were about 6 fairly new students.

The Doctor started with general questions, “How was your drive here?” “Have you lived here all your life?” Etc. Etc. which eventually worked it’s way in to why we were there.

The Doctor mainly asked the questions, with the two students next to him asking a few and the students on the right only allowed to listen. I assume as our sessions progress, the students would get more involved.

One question that stuck out in my mind was to J, “Do you want to change this pattern and the way you withdraw from her?” J strongly said, “Oh yes, I do.”

About 15 minutes before the session ended, the 6 students to the right got in small circle and discussed what they had heard. This part J and I found strange but enlightening to us both. Even though it was positive, I couldn’t help but think of jurors deliberating with the defendants being able to listen in.

So, it went something like this…

Student #1 said, “Anyone want to go first?” Everyone looked around, he said, “Okay, well I don’t mind going.” (Looks like he just nominated himself as head juror.) He began, “Well, that was a lot of information to me but first it seems like Anna, even though she strives not to be so much like her mother, is very much like her mother, with patience, very resillent, integrity is important to her…etc….she is outgoing, has her friends, active. And J is very much a loner, withdraws but wants to change, has done an enormous amount of change in the past three years buts wants more.”

Juror…whoops I mean Student #2 chimes in and says, “and Anna’s personality seems to be exactly what J needed because most women would show J the door early on.”…Then comes Student #3 with a comment, “Anna and J seem to have something very special between them though, they have broke up a lot but they always come back together.” Student #1 comes back with, “their relationship continues to go in circles, but you notice the circle starts out big and goes smaller and smaller and smaller…the gap closing and getting better.” The others chime in they agree…

Student #4 says, “And, Anna seems very supportive of J and sees his need to for alone time even commenting when they get married they need a bigger house than her house so that J can have his own office.” Student #6 says, “And it’s not like there won’t be a trust problem, because J isn’t going out looking for other women, she’ll know where to find him…the book store…or watching movies…” Then Juror #4 says, “But, there is a trust issue…”How will Anna trust that J won’t withdraw completely once married?” The others jurors shake their head in agreement. As Juror # 6 makes a subtle suggestion, “J knows when he gets this “itch” and he recognizes when he starts to withdraw, if only J could get out his journal at that point and start reading what he has written during his other break ups and start writing his thoughts, instead of waiting until it’s too late.

At this point the session was coming to an end. Things were wrapped up, J and I left, J said he is excited to go back next week and that he felt good about the session.

Anyway, just thought you guys would find this interesting too…

I hope everyone else is doing well!

Anna

Anna that is awesome. How interesting on how you ended up in counseling, without you even having to ask!

I am glad for you!!!

Dawn

That was fascinating, Anna. I'm happy J wants to go to counseling and had a positive first experience.

The "jurors'" comments were really interesting, weren't they? I like the idea of J re-reading what he's written and perhaps writing more consistantly.

That sounds very interesting. Like getting a peer review, rather than a doctor's view, of your relationship.

Newly, Greengables and Daybreak,

Thanks for the comments. I did find the "jurors" comments very interesting too. I am looking forward to going back next week. I am hoping to steer towards the topic of "Why does J withdraw?" Also, I want to share with them my fears. What if we get married and he withdraws from the whole marriage? What if we get engaged and wait until after he graduates in 2 years, then he can't go through with it? I didn't realize until after we got back together just how much trust I have lost and am struggling a lot with our relationship.

I agree with you GG on the idea of J reading back on what he has written and writing more when he withdraws.

Newly, I wasn't sure I'd like the set up of these sessions but I really do so far. It's kind of like a group of people brainstorming a problem.

Thanks again guys, I'll try to post on Session 2.

Anna

Sounds like great counseling but what if you live together for a couple years and see how it goes before marrying. It will really help see what will happen....at least I think so.

[color:"blue"]"Sounds like great counseling but what if you live together for a couple years and see how it goes before marrying. It will really help see what will happen...."[/color]
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don't think that's found in any of Dr Harley's writings...

Mark

No, Dr. Harley is definitely against the "Let's see how we like it first" approach.

However, I don't think that is always wrong. Lord knows, if my ex and I had lived together for a year, we'd never have gotten married. Maybe dating for a few years would bring the same issues to light, but I'm not sure.

I did live with my Ex, and he was on best behavior. The real person started coming out about a month before we married, but I waved off the red flags because I was in love.

Now, I had a withdrawn, emotionally unavailable H. In his case, the withdrawn coincided with depression which I didn't realize (family history & thyroid issues too).
Is there any chance J is prone to depression? That's something I will definitely try to avoid.

Hey Stella,

Thanks for the advice on living together. It's tempting, I have even considered it, but my gut says don't do it. I guess I just feel like if we live together, we may become so close to each other that even if we do see problems we will ignore them because we are "too attached" in some ways. I don't know if this makes sense, but dating to me gives me more an objective and open mind to what I want and don't want before I get in too deep.

Oh goodness Newly!!!! You just hit the nail on the head. I knew in the beginning he had a thyroid problem and I haven't considered it in a long time for some reason. When I read your post, a light went off, and of course I was thinking to myself, "You dummy! How could I over look the obvious?"
Here are the symptoms and I marked the main ones I see with J:

Tiredness [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Loss of Interest and/or Pleasure [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Dry, coarse hair [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Forgetfulness [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Loss of Lateral Eyebrow Hair
Puffy face and Eyes
Depression [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Muscle aches [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Hair Loss
Headaches
Brittle nails
Constipation [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Heavy menstrual periods [color:"red"] okay, so he missed one....hah [/color]
Weight Gain [color:"red"] this is J but he works out and diets a lot to control it [/color]
Dry Skin [color:"red"] this is J [/color]
Slow Heartbeat
Goiter

The ones I marked are extreme with J and he refuses treatment and meds right now because he says he doesn't see a difference when he's on meds and right now he doesn't have insurance to cover the cost.


So now I have been wondering all day, "First, can I live with this problem the rest of my life?" My niece has it and even on meds she can be such a handful, indecisive, one minute she loves her husband dearly, the next minutes she isn't sure how she feels about anything...etc. Then there is J not even wanting to consider treatment right now, and I do know he can afford it, he just doesn't want to do it which may be the thyroid talking too...Anyway, lots to think about and I will probably bring this up in our next counseling.

Many many thanks to all who posted!

Anna, if you do marry him would you please please get a prenup? That way, if your judgement is a little off or he proves to be difficult or impossible to live with long term, you wont be sunk?

You worked too hard to not get a prenup here. They are about 500 bucks and well worth it.

Then, even if you marry him you can sort of relax at least in the financial area.

I know no one listens to me about prenups. But if you are on your second marriage it is really a good thing to have.

Hey Stella,

I agree that prenups is something a person getting married should seriously investigate when the time comes.

Right now, I have to say after reading all I have on hypothyroidism, I am very concerned about being in a relationship or married to someone with this condition. Especially someone who doesn't want to get treatment or who has never investigated the serious effects when left untreated, and from what I have read, it's very serious, including heart disease and even coma!

I also read forum post where they all do what J does, the foggy memory, can't make decisions, on and off again relationships. Yikes!

I am just a little over whelmed. I love him very much but do I want this for myself the rest of my life?

Anna

Hey all,

Just a counseling update. Yesterday I had to go downtown, Jury duty...yuck. J took me and dropped me off, and then hung out in the area all day until I was through. We went to the movies afterwards, for anyone interested, my opinion as well as J's opinion, Rent 3:10 to Yuma, don't pay the movie price. Anyway, so then afterward we go to counseling...

The Doctor starts with saying that he is going to let his students do most of the questioning...Through it, his own curiosity and probably profession got the best of him because I noticed he still asked most of the questions.

Anyway, we start with talking about the Thyroid problems. I told them I was happy that J took it upon himself to do a lot of his own research on his thyroid and is willing to go to the doctor, get retested, etc. .

The counselor asked J how he felt about his thyroid maybe having something to do with the problems of him withdrawing. He said, "I read a lot on it, see where it can be a symptom, see where others have problems like me with it but then I don't like blaming my problems on something medical like this. I believe you are responsible for your own actions."

Then he asked me what I thought about what J said, "I said, I agree but we still can't discredit that he has a thyroid problem and it may have an effect on his moods whether he likes it or not. Also, you are responsible for doing what you can to take care of your health so how J handles this now that he has gathered all the information will be interesting to see."

Anyway, lots of questions were thrown at us, then the 6 students who observed did their own discussion. One guy, the one I earlier referrred to as the "head juror", said, "It seems that Anna may be paranoid about J withdrawing before he even withdraws, J takes Anna's lead and it confuses how he feels,he starts withdrawing, and then feels responsible for it."

Wow! I thought, "That is not what is happening at all." So then at the end, we got to speak again. The doctor asked us if we had any comments on what they said, I looked at J, he said nothing, so I said, of course, I have something to say. Later it occurred to me, I should have just asked J if he thought any of what the one guy said about parnoid is true, instead I said, "I disagree with the guy's thoughts on me being paranoid. Each time I go back into the relationship thinking we can make this work especially because J is so convencing, and with a lot of faith despite the past, then usually around 3 or 4 months into our relationship, I see J withdrawing, I ask him to make sure I am not misunderstanding, he says all over again, "I am not sure what I want." That doesn't sound like paranoia to me...

Anyway, as we were walking to the car, I asked J if he thought it was true, he said, "no, not all, I withdraw from you and everyone, not just you, even though things are going good with us."

I don't blame the guy for misunderstanding though, he is a new student. Also, we are trying to feed information about our relationship in two one hour sessions.

Oh, another thing the Doc said is, "Anna, I think you seem to have already checked out of this relationship." I said, "Yes, I think so." He said something like, "Try to stick in there with us through the sessions, I see hope you guys could make it if you. You never know what can come out these sessions."

Anyway, there ya have it, session 2....

Anna

For anyone interested, here’s Counseling session III.

I think we made a little progress, but only time will tell.

As we talked back and forth in our session, it occurred to me that what we may be doing wrong is when J withdraws we both spend less and less time together.

two main reasons to back my argument was:

1. J says he really wants to stop this withdrawal cycle, and stopping means changing his habits completely, not giving into these urges.

2. A good counselor never tells married couples to separate because when two people start spending less time together then they change their patterns to be apart from that person, plus the tension, doubts grow etc, and it basically snowballs downhill from there, and the couple won't be working on the problem if they are apart.

Everyone seemed to agree with my thoughts, so we all decided that J and I will change our approach when J starts withdrawing and we will to try spending more time together instead of less.

Also, on J’s thyroid problem, he contacted several doctors and says he’ll make a decision this week on which to go to.

So our homework this week is to spend more time together even though J, which will be perfect timing because he's going through one of his withdrawal modes now.

A couple of interesting statements on our sessions later.

He said all the counselors seem to think he talked more in this session and he was surprised because he felt he talked less and was much more nervous. I wondered if it's because in the other sessions to me he did talk less but it seemed that "I" talked more for him. (Just an interesting thought.)

I was asked by a counselor about trust, “What will it take to get your trust back?” My answer, “It’s all about changing the pattern and it takes time to see if that pattern is changed or not.” I added, “I worry it’s too little too late for J and me because there’s already been a lot of water under the bridge. I wish counseling and getting a thyroid doctor would have started a couple of years ago but it didn't.”

I think today we both feel a little more encouraged because of these results, maybe a lot of it is because over 3 years we both realized we never changed either of our patterns when J withdraws.

After each session J and I go to dinner and discuss everything, that seems to also bring us closer.

Hope you guys aren't getting bored with these sessions. I think I like summarizing everything and also getting feed back.

Would love to hear any thoughts.

Anna

Anna,

With all the break up's of course there is a lack of trust, if he's going to withdraw and disappear, how can you really trust he will be there when you need him?

And yes, this can change, on both your parts...

1. When he's going into withdraw he can talk to you..
Anna, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed with things at the moment..and need a few hours to myself..

2. When he's going into this, you need to realize that just because he's needing some down time from life..doesn't mean he is looking for someone else...or even wanting to end the relationship.

Remember the various personality types?

Some people recharge being around others all the time (you seem to be that way)

BUT...

Some people recharge being alone (sounds like J)

My husband and I are the same way, I like to be around lots of people..He doesn't..He likes his alone time..so we had to find a balance.

Say you to do get married..your kids still live at home right? So, one night a week you can go out and do something just you and your kids...and J stay home alone to recharge.

It gives him the alone time, and gives you and your kids a couple hours together. so it's win win..

what other things trigger the lack of trust?

When he withdraws other than your past w/ him and the break-ups, did your ex withdraw like that? and if so, what were his withdraw times like?

I realize your not wanting to compare the two, but I'm just asking if it may trigger some of feelings from during that time as well?

Hey TR,

Thanks for the advice. Let me give you a little more information to shed more light on the situation.

J can always take a day or two to recharge and he has. Hs problem isn't just needing a day or a few hours. His problem is that he goes in to withdrawal from the world, more like a depression to me, the more he gets time alone, the more he withdraws emotionally and physically from everyone in his life. He becomes almost a hermit for months and then comes out of it slowly again.

Also, to give you a little background on my ex. He never withdrew, actually our problem was often the reverse, I needed alone time and he hated giving me any.

Hey, BTW, Good to see you!!!

Anna