I posted this at the end of a long thread, but I really wanted it to be more visible. So, I'm beginning a new thread with it:

I think I should have included an address to mw77, as my reply was in response to her post justifying adultery.

I don't always understand why and how it is so easy to sweep aside the wisdom provided to us in the form of God's commandments. It's really pretty easy, love God with all your heart, etc., and love your neighbor as yourself. But, he knew we would sin and we continue to, as evidenced by the condition of this world he gave us. I am no exception.

Let's think about our neighbor for a minute. Do we know if he or she is good or evil? Do we know what his or her strengths or weaknesses are? Do we know where they've been wounded? Neglected? Abused? Do we know how well they've been loved? Do we know what went into creating them to be who they've become? Do we know how they're being treated presently? Really?

I'm pretty sure that God's commandments were given to us to keep us from making bad mistakes in our ignorance. The commandment not to commit adultery is one of the most misunderstood, most abused that comes to mind. It's so bad that most states don't care about it anymore, because it clogs the courts. So, they opt to simply look out for the welfare of the children as the main goal in divorce.

My own experience with all sorts of people in all sorts of roles is that PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT ADULTERY. They do it, they excuse it, they use it like an addiction, they ignore it, they justify it. Mainly, from what I've seen, they use it to PUNISH.

Well, 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.' (condensed). So, if you are a terrible marriage partner or if you have one, figure out how to solve or exit your situation morally. Otherwise you're putting yourself above God and you're scrambling and corrupting the world around you.

God isn't against divorce, he did it himself. He divorced his people Israel. Divorce isn't a sin, but adultery is and always will be.

You know what adultery does to the betrayed (however evil you might believe them to be)? It robs them of the opportunity to learn and grow in a safe, non-abusive environment. It pays evil for evil. If married people take the time to learn why their marriage isn't working, whether they plan on staying together or not, the person doing the most hurting has the opportunity to be confronted with the threat of divorce, before they become abused by their mate with their replacement. I always picture someone beating the crap out of another with their lover. They have a safe environment to examine themselves and an opportunity to change. I don't think anyone grows up desiring to be "the evil one" (serial murderers and the like being the obvious exception). The whole idea behind counseling is to reveal feelings of a desire to divorce, so that the other person can see the nature of their "fruit" in life and can change their hearts.

What good does it do to just dispose of people? Because, the attitude, from what I've seen, of the people who do this sounds something like this, "they've reaped what they've sown", "they get what they deserve", "someone else will have to love them", "they're not my problem anymore". Speaking from experience, being sent the message that I'm somebody's discards, somebody's refuse, somebody's trash didn't do me any good at all. I didn't marry to be thrown away. I married to love and be loved. And love sometimes means being corrected, being revealed, being taught lessons. I am abused when I am not rebuked. And I abuse when I don't rebuke. Marriage is supposed to be a safe environment within which we become better people and manifest the love of God. I didn't offer my heart to another person to eventually be judged and condemned and none of us do. That's what adultery is... judgment and condemnation.

I know I did things wrong in my own marriage. In those things I was ignorant. Who of us knows how to 'do' marriage right from the beginning? Who of us has just the right counselors and support networks of family and friends to give us just the right advice just when we need it? If a problem persisted in my own marriage, it was because either I wasn't told there was a problem, or I didn't understand. I rely on my partner to work with me until I do understand.

As empathetic and as compassionate as I may be, it is impossible for me to know exactly what another person is feeling. I am completely dependent on their ability and willingness to tell me in a way that's meaningful to me, to teach me, to use correct metaphors, whatever. Screaming, yelling, passive-aggressiveness and violence are not effective forms of communication. Adultery is passive-aggressive. It is the ultimate in passive-aggressive where marriage is concerned.

mw77, it sounds like your mate was married to a deeply wounded person who probably only learned how to cope with her emotions using passive-aggression. But, she has value and is valuable to God. I wonder how she would have responded if he had said to her, "honey, I just don't understand what I've done wrong by your silence. I want us to be happy. I need more information to know how to love you. Can you try expressing what made you angry? Then I will know not to do that again and I'll feel a lot better knowing how happy I can make you (not to mean that he was at fault, but humility opens doors to knowledge)." Or, "you know physical affection in the form of sex or lovemaking is normal and healthy and a necessary part of a happy marriage. I don't know if I can stay married to you, because I am deeply lonely and frustrated. God made us to be together in that beautiful way and I would like to see if we can safely remove the obstacles that may exist so that we can have a safe and deeply fulfilling marriage." Or, "honey, your words hurt me deeply. They aren't true. But, it sounds like something hurt you or you wouldn't be lashing out like that. Will you please try to help me understand? I want you to be happy and if I'm missing the mark I truly want to know and to correct myself." Or, "let's get help to learn how to make each other really happy, because I love you and I want you to have the best and I surely would love it too."

If anyone is ridiculed after that, they can leave in good conscience. Not for another woman or man, but by themselves. The reason they ended up there in the first place is half their fault. There's something wrong with them. To begin another relationship before learning those things just isn't wise.

So wm77, let me ask you this. If you had been his ex-wife and you lived terrified, behind a curtain of defensiveness, shame, whatever, wouldn't you want God to reach deeply into you to heal you and bring you the love you need? Or, would you want someone to waste 30 years of your life then beat you up with their lover? Wouldn't it be far more compassionate to leave after, say, year 3? Year 7? Year 14? Leaving you something of your life? Even if only to jar your senses and wake you up? Then, if a lover isn't in the picture, imagine the possibilities for healing and for love where little or none existed before. EVEN IF THEY DON'T STAY TOGETHER.

In my heart and in my mind, it just isn't very productive to beat the crap out of anyone with your lover. THAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF ADULTERY. That is how it feels to be replaced without being brought to understanding first. It makes you feel like defective trash. Period. It is completely unproductive PUNISHMENT.

There's a big difference between rebuke, discipline and punishment. Adultery=Punishment=Vengeance.

May I please say, I do not wish to justify this affair. My heart has broken many times over for this, I have had angry moments for the hurt this man caused me, and in my at times, naiveness.

I have asked him to forgive me and he has sought his own forgiveness as well as his wife asked him to forgive her for her failures in the marriage.

I am no longer justifying and my personal choice is to continue in counseling and stay with him and marry in the future as planned. Perhaps he will get on the board in the future and discuss his own truths. Its not my place to guess anymore. ]

Now, I ask that all of you who have been angry to forgive the OW for whatever pain you have felt during this thread.

MW77

This is different from what you said about her on the other thread.

My advice still holds. End your affair with him. That is the best thing for everybody...you, your children, the MM and his wife.

Oh, and as for the OW in my life...well, they were just pieces on the side, and one of them was already dead before he finally admitted. I'm not concerned with them. I'm concerned with a no-longer cheating man who still has a wayward frame of mind.

Another thing...my DD, who is just like her dad, became involved in an "inappropriate friendship" with a MM, and I called his wife. I also confronted the MM and told him that I would continue to call his wife if he didn't stop coming around my DD. I love my DD dearly, and there was NO WAY I was going to sit by and let her totally mess up her life like that. We are now closer than we ever were.

In order for someone to be forgiven, he/she should repent of their wrongdoing and STOP DOING IT before asking for forgiveness.

Actually, this all seems to have started from a thread I had posted initially. I had fallen in love w a man who was saying he was divorcing.
So...mw77, I sort of have an idea of how you are feeling, and of the tremendously strong emotions you are going through. You might almost feel on a sort of "quest", to free this man from a miserable life (that his wife is giving him) and to provide a happy life for him - one that he deserves. You probably also feel that you are going about things the right way, because you are all seing a therapist, and you are talking about these things. It is great to be able to talk with a partner, that's true. It gives hope for the fulfilment of the emotional need of conversation. It shows that you think along the same lines, and have similar values. It shows how strong you are together, and that you are like accomplices. So, to some extent, it might seem all so promising, so strong, so right. So why should you stop? Well, here is a thought. And don't immediately dismiss it.
What about completely cutting contact (completely, not even email, text messages, nothing) for a while (possibly, a long while). It sounds super cruel, I know. You are both living a hard time and how can you leave him during this hard time and vice versa. BUT, during this time, all the emotions will gradually pass. I swear, they will. It is just a question of 6-10 weeks. It not that the love for this person will go away, but all this turmoil will. It is hard to "think straight" when you are going through all this. So, not matter how much you think that the his wife deserves this, that she did/does nothing to keep him, that she does not want him and is fine with divorce, well, no matter how much you think this, well ultimately, deep inside, you know other things too. But you dont see these other things, or don't want to see them, because of this strong emotional state you are in. But these things will not go away like magic. They will keep resurfacing, especially once this turmoil has lifted. Deep inside you know that there is something wrong to "steal" from someone else, before things have naturally ended for them. You know that, no matter how justified, it is not "right" that he has not completed one story before he started the other one. All these things that you know are wrong (although justifiable, understandble, etc...) are things that you can ignore now, now that you are in this "fighting" mode. But once things calm down, these things will come back to haunt you. You will have less respect for a partner who can do that to someone. You will have doubts as to whether this same things could happen to you. You will have to bear his and your guilty feelings, that will emerge, even if not immediately. Ultimately, no matter how right this relationship seems now, it is created out of someone else's expense (his wife). Even if she wants that, even is she is cruel, etc...
I am not saying that you never have a future with this man. But what is the hurry? Why not wait until he settles things? Will you not feel more proud of how you went about it? Will you not feel that this is the "right way" to do things (to complete one thing before one moves to the next, and to have ended his relationship because it died of its natural steam, rather than because of YOU)? Will you not feel "safer" about his way of handling things (i.e. he ended his relationship because it was not right, not because he threw her away to get you instead)? Will you not feel more "fair"?
I know it seems unthinkable now. You cannot even imagine one second without this person. But give it a try. A REAL try. No relapses, not contact. I promise, you will feel, gradually, as if a veil is being lifted from you. And you will feel more honest, more serene etc. Then, with this clear mind, and when he has settled things, you can perhaps reconsider things. And who knows what you will want to reconsider at that point. You can only know that with a clear mind - right now you are in such a turmoil, and so many people are. It is not healthy... it would not be starting a relationship in a healthy way... and it will always haunt you (and him).
So... good luck, and do give it some serious thought, even if the first reaction is to find all sorts of excuses why it cannot happen. But it can. And I promise, it will be better.
I actually talked on the phone w Steve Harley, and it was very helpful. Perhaps he can help you too. It is kind of on the expensive side, but quite worth it!
good luck!
micky

Hello mmicky.

I'm happy to read you have talked with Steve Harley. He is a very smart man.

I hope you are moving on with your life, making yourself available for a single man worthy of your love. You deserve nothing less.

Jo

God did NOT divorce his people Israel. He changed the conditions of his covenant with them--but he did NOT divorce them.

Just because he allows divorce, doesn't mean he's *for* it, or that he did it himself.

He is Faithful.

And, frankly, that is one reason why most churches had for so long took a strong stand against divorce... Faithfulness even to a hard marriage symbolized to a watching world God's faithfulness to US.

(At the same time, I am not judging people who choose to get a divorce. I am only saying, let's not make God into MAN'S image, that He should forsake his people and forget his promises...)

Jeremiah 3:8 (New King James Version)

8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

I don't recall saying He was "for" divorce. Divorce is a tragedy. But, so is living with a person who causes intense personal suffering. Pick your poison.

GOD IS ALSO FAITHFUL TO THE LONG-SUFFERING AND DOES SET THEM FREE AT SOME POINT.

It is unGodly to stand by and allow sin, whether you're the victim of it or not. All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Put that in your Google and see the mountain of scriptures that come up to support it.

I didn't make God into man's image, but I'm afraid of people who expect people to suffer endlessly and think they're showing the world how faithful God is. I'm afraid of people who use the message of mercy to do away with justice. Justice is every bit as much God's character as mercy and faithfulness.

If we all stood by and remained 'faithful' to 'mercy', the twin towers wouldn't be the only thing destroyed as of now. At a point we MUST take a stand and God showed us that when there isn't a change in nature, He lets us go and yes, it grieves Him.

I'm curious why you jumped on my case. Do you think I go around passing out permission slips to be unmerciful? Be careful that you haven't crossed the line into codependency, which is the same as complicity.

Faithfully...

Warrior--

If you read through the whole book of Jeremiah, you see that all of God's actions are to correct and purify his people.

The whole book is a warning given to a prophet. And yet after painful, and excruciating warnings and images, he goes on to say "If you return, I will restore you (15:19)" and more.

Do not take one line out of context. In Chapter 31 tells He says, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more..."

In Chapter 33:14, he says "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah..."

That does not sound like a God who has "divorced" his people. And if you read ALL the words and images given to the prophet Jeremiah, you see that the harshest language and words were chosen to show the people their sins.

And they were punished for their actions. But not by being divorced from God. He stays faithful to Israel--even if he removes his direct presence from them for a time--and ultimately all is fulfilled in Christ.

FWIW I did not "jump on your case". I don't know you and have nothing against you personally.

But you are making God into Man's image (unfaithful, faltering, and one who breaks his vows) and declaring it to be a faithful representation of who he is.

I am not divorcing, or even near divorce (though about 3 years ago, I contemplated it). My husband and I are happy--a happiness we would not have found had I pursued the path of divorce.

Some people do it, I don't fault them or even judge them. But I will NOT sit by and let someone disparage God--even unintentionally.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings.

<If you read through the whole book of Jeremiah, you see that all of God's actions are to correct and purify his people.>

Actually, the entire Bible is to correct and purify ALL people who are willing.

<The whole book is a warning given to a prophet. And yet after painful, and excruciating warnings and images, he goes on to say "If you return, I will restore you (15:19)" and more.>

Seems like you flew past that "If you return" part a little fast. Yes, and then he sent Christ who said in Luke 17:3"If your brother sins, rebuke him, AND IF HE REPENTS, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

To quote you, "Do not take one line out of context." Those people seeking mercy through divorce are often married to people who refuse to repent or even address their sins. It seems that you are married to a person who is willing to work with you. Many are not. You are judging others and seeing the world through "Telly" colored glasses. It all worked out rosy for you, but it does not and cannot for those unevenly yoked to stubborn unrepentant people. For them we are directed to "let them go".

< In Chapter 31 tells He says, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more..."

In Chapter 33:14, he says "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah...">

Isn't it wonderful that once they've had a taste of their own fruit that they will finally be ready to receive God's blessing?

Do you think we are a bunch of sheep to be preyed upon by the unrepentant? No! We were sent out as sheep among wolves and told to be WISE AS SERPENTS. God does expect us to use our hearts and our heads and manifest His love through mercy and the scripture is clear that "divorce" is one of those options. Do you just assume that divorce means forever? Have you never heard of a couple who've divorced and some time later when they've grown and changed they return to one another and remarry? And that would have not necessarily been possible had they not tasted the consequences of their choices. That is right in line with Jeremiah. Isn't it wonderful that you didn't have to go that far. Isn't it awful that some do? But, for some that is what it takes. The scripture you've corrected me with is saying exactly "divorce".

<That does not sound like a God who has "divorced" his people.>

I see your train of thought. I just don't see much mercy in your thinking for VICTIMS, but God surely is in Jeremiah 17. He's not willing to ignore wrongdoing. Thank God! You know what the irony is? I'm a betrayed spouse who yearns for justice AND mercy and I'm sitting here arguing for the mercy of my wayward husband as well as for myself.

<And if you read ALL the words and images given to the prophet Jeremiah, you see that the harshest language and words were chosen to show the people their sins.>

I'm just so curious what makes you think I haven't? I'm quoting verbatim and you're telling me God didn't really divorce his people when it says plain as day that he did and you don't want to accept that.

<And they were punished for their actions. But not by being divorced from God. He stays faithful to Israel--even if he removes his direct presence from them for a time--and ultimately all is fulfilled in Christ.>

Telly, the scripture is clear as day. The fact that God is faithful doesn't change that. It happened. Then, later, after some time, ..., ..., ..., when their hearts had changed, they came back. Do you know what you do to a child you don't correct? Do you have children? They turn miserably spoiled and do not learn empathy and walk all over other people causing misery to others as they move through life. Eventually, people earn reputations and are avoided like the plague. How sad for them. And how sad it is that they had to cause all that grief. If only SOMEONE had rebuked them when they were young. Well, sometimes people grow up and need rebuking and there's nothing in the bible that says we are "required" (to be true Christians) to be abused by the unrepentant.

The bible is spiritually discerned, but I often wonder if people who have not had to suffer half a lifetime of anguish really understand the depth of hunger and thirst for God's righteousness, protection, provision and mercy and the need to actually experience it in the form of Christ's love.

<FWIW I did not "jump on your case". I don't know you and have nothing against you personally.>

Just an expression, but I'm sorry. I do take it personally when well-meaning Christians won't get off their "see the world through my own eyes" butts and take a righteous stand against evil. You sound like a Pharisee. You would have some live life in misery and hardship just to tell the world that God is faithful. That's cruel and insane.

<But you are making God into Man's image (unfaithful, faltering, and one who breaks his vows) and declaring it to be a faithful representation of who he is.>

I am not making God into Man's image... I think I've proven that I am making God into Christ's image very well.

<I am not divorcing, or even near divorce (though about 3 years ago, I contemplated it). My husband and I are happy--a happiness we would not have found had I pursued the path of divorce.>

I'm happy for you. What do you tell the woman who's husband, after 15 years, continues to use pornography, ruin the family finances, refuse to work, but is quite content to send his wife out into the world to do it for him and she does it or she can't feed her children? The bible says they are "worse than an unbeliever". What do you tell the spouse who has to suffer the anguish of her partner's infidelity year after painful year? Possibly exposing her to disease? You cannot look at your own situation and make blanket judgments based on that. It's wonderful that you and your husband do not create pain and anguish and suffering for each other. But, there are those going through this life who need to hear your Godly, merciful, BIBLICAL support. This is the proper venue for it. Otherwise it's as though they have knocked on your door for help against an attacker and you refuse to let them in, because you think the attacker deserves the (undivorcing) God's faithfulness. THINK! God gave you a sound mind.

<Some people do it, I don't fault them or even judge them. But I will NOT sit by and let someone disparage God--even unintentionally.>

There is nothing disparaging in God taking a stand against evil. Are you crazy? What kind of parent wouldn't run to save his screaming child from attack? What kind of parent would ignore one child being cruel to another, year after year? I can't believe you can read in plain English EXACTLY what the bible says and blow right past it to the thing you choose to believe. YOU are making God into your own image.

<Sorry if it hurt your feelings.>

Yes you did. And you hurt the feelings of all those trapped in miserable, lonely, hopeless (except for death), unthinkable, anguish filled lives as well.

I know I'm coming on strong to you. I WANT TO. And essentially I think we agree on most things, except I just don't think you have a true understanding of the nature of this kind of evil. Your prayers were answered. But, that's you. Other people need to hear that God cares and demonstrates His support through his own act of divorce when they have to go hungry because hubby spent the last nickel on his girlfriend. Don't bypass these scriptures that are CLEAR AS DAY and used within the correct spirit and context they were told.

Where is your love? If you have not love (for the unevenly yoked), you have nothing. I challenge you to read the bible again and seek the scriptures of God's 'righteous' wrath. No, I don't have an unhealthy lust for vengeance. Vengeance is the Lord's. He will repay. (Not he might repay, he's too forgiving to repay, he didn't really mean to get a divorce, etc.) Sometimes he slaps us in the face (figuratively) if that's what it takes to keep us from spending an eternity in ******. Thank God!

warrior,

Again, I do not judge or criticize people who choose to get a divorce.

I understand that the point of your post was to encourage those people who have chosen to separate from someone who hurts them or sins against them, and to that end, I would not argue with you.

I certainly argee that God can, will, and does redeem the lives of people who have been forced into the difficult and painful choice of divorce.

My only point was that you continue to claim that God divorces his people--which he does not (though he allows them to separate themselves, even into enternity if they so choose).

In my opinion, the fact that God ALLOWS divorce is enough, and should be enough to encourage anyone who has made the choice. Still, he is not *for* it (as Jesus said, "it was not that way from the beginning")--and I'm quite sure that most people who have gone through a divorce would greatly have preferred that their spouse had BEEN faithful, or not abusive, or whatever else caused the divorce.

I am not advocating a "stay married at all cost approach". I wasn't even really addressing people who had gotten a divorce--my point was much more specific than that (as I've already re-iterated), and related to God's faithfulness, which is unending. He will free people if that is what they wish (hence the "divorce" certificate to Israel), but he does not forget his promises, and he remains faithful even when the others do not (even his chastisement is a form of faithfulness).

As I said in my earlier post, God certainly does rebuke and punish his children, as he did the Israelites, and as he does with us. But he is also faithful to forgive us whenever we turn from our sin (I say this WITHOUT any expectation that a person going through or having gone through a divorce be able to, or willing to do the same... we are not God).

With that, I have made my point to the best of my ability. I am not going to engage you further, as it is obvious that you speak from a great place of pain on this subject. Frankly, I'm afraid that you may simply be unable to separate who God is from what you think would be the most healing for you (which is to believe that he approves of divorce).

I do wish you well, both personally in your attempts to encourage others who are in pain.

Telly, I can see that you are a loving person. You are a person of conscience, unlike some of our ex or STBX spouses. I can tell by how graciously you acknowledged my own pain and the pain of others here and that means a lot to me. It's very healing.

One of the most gut wrenching struggles of considering and going through with divorce is knowing that God hates it. That's why these particular scriptures are so very important to those of us who dearly love God. I owe God my life. I should be dead for my sins, but he saved me.

That is the nerve you struck in me. It's like this... you wouldn't tell a starving person to love their enemy (those who are starving them). That isn't appropriate or compassionate in that circumstance. The appropriate thing to do is to set a plate of nourishing food in front of them.

I have searched long and hard, to the depths of my soul to maintain my integrity on these things, so that my own walk is within God's will and my testimony and encouragement to others would be powerful and triumphant over evil. We must tell the WHOLE story and there are times when we must model the less tasteful (to our 21st century more feminine style of worship) character of God. Even Jesus became indignant and violent against wrongdoing.

There are people in this world who have suffered in ways I may never fully understand. I thank God that Christ went the distance.

God bless you, Telly.