This is from one of my other posts. I received some very helpful info from MG and LA but i can not bring myself to talk to him about the A. So here is a big part of the story and i am asking your opinion.

First off i want to say that when i said exactly to your other post regarding my WH. There is one word i would change. He does not necessarily speak about the OW with "fondness". I do not think fondness is the correct word. It is more like "no big deal".

Like the evening that he said she was very attractive was in speaking about another person at his company that was resigning at the same time as the OW. This guy had sold us a car and was at our house and he as my H put it "undressed me with his eyes". And my H then proceeded to say something about how this guy was that way he used to grab the OW and push her up against the wall and act like he was doing something with her. And then i do not remember what i said but i said something about it and then that is when he said well all the guys in the office messed with her because she is very attractive and liked the attention. So i do not know if that is fondness but it still hurt my feelings and i told him so.

I also don't want anyone to think that he is some terrible ogre and why am i even wanting to try to save my M.

MG When you talk about preA boundaries (in the other post) i am not sure that any were set because i did not feel the need to set them. I mean he had always been a good H and father but he has ALWAYS been bad on the EN side for all of us. For the last 24 years (until Dec 2006) he has always went to work every day and came home every night, never went out with the boys, we spent all of our time together with our children as we both have the same feeling that is one of the most important things of bringing up a family is being involved in their lives. In the beginning of our M he played softball and i went with him before kids and after kids we all went. The one boundary that we both had set from the beginning of our relationship was the one i broke in saying that if either of us ever had an A the other one would be out of there.

I am not trying to make excuses for my H but like i said before the one good thing that we have done is talk about why it happened. Our M IMO had suffered for the last 4 years due to letting a family member live with us whom i did not really care for so we quit spending as much time together because he felt like he needed to entertain that family member (the family member is male by the way) and the family member is a total alcoholic and i did not like being around him so i kind of think we were not as close, then he lost his mother and he had issues with her (that i will not get into) that were unresolved, besides life in general there were stresses with his job etc. Even though i had the same stresses and did not chose to have an A so that is why i am saying i am not making excuses.

And then i set boundaries basically during the A. At first he was put on a job with the OW and they started talking while working together like any normal people would do. Then due to her damsel in distress ploy because her XBF was trying to hurt her, he tried to fix her up with the family member that was living at our house. In doing so they started "hanging out" together because i was working a second job and not home. She did not like the family member but they all hung out at the bar together. I know he put himself in the situation and one thing led to another.

I think he actually wanted to get caught because the he told me when he took the family member to her house and i threw a fit and told him that i did not like that and he would not like it if i did it either but i think by then he already was in the "fog" by then because it was one week later when he did not come home until midnight (this had not happened in 24 years so why would i not be suspicious). I asked him where he had been and he told me. He was filthy drunk and had ran into a pole with our vehicle (he had never drove when he had too much to drink before either because we were always together and i am not much of a drinker so he had a built in designated driver). Because he was so drunk he said a lot of things that night, he did not deny anything that happened. That is when i set boundaries about NC and the consequences for those boundaries. He chose to leave to think about it he was gone for three days (i am sure he seen her during these days but he did not stay there as he called me from where he was staying several times during that time frame and i have caller ID) and asked if he could come back home and i told him only if he could follow the boundaries (this was on a Friday). He said he could and i let him come home. For the next week i sensed he was not following those boundaries so i was watching him closely. The next Friday he came home late again and i asked him where he had been and he told me. He also told me he wanted to be with her so i made him leave. He came home on Sunday.

At that time i told him that he had to quit his job or we could not stay together. He started looking for a new job but two weeks after he came home is when his illness hit and i then became his nurse because he was so sick, he was out on disability for five months and during that time we put the A on the back burner and got him through it. The family member had left our house and we became very close again because he was so sick and i spent all my time getting him well and he relied on me and that is when we talked about what happened in our M and how to make it better.

But then when he had to go back to work is when my fears struck again because i could not handle contact with her again. And i guess for me i started dealing with the A in June 2007. By then he felt everything was done and over and i had nothing to worry about. He has been the same H he was preA since he went back to work except the things i have stated before. He is very loving and tries to show me how he cares, we have date nights now, lots of things, are M seems to be really good so why do i feel like i need the answers to my questions about the A. It really just sucks maybe i should just leave the past in the past and look to the future like he says.

You're in a pickle for sure, but will you ever be truly satisfied not knowing what YOU feel you need to know?

Some questions, because I can't find your originial sitch...
have you inquired if your H feels your M is/was in a situation that needs attention?

Have you brought up the MB program to him? and
is H willing to participate in MB?

Hopefully some veteran MBer's will chime in on their experiences for you. I'm sure you aren't the only one to find yourself in this type of situation, but what to do with it I'm not sure.

My H felt that things did need attention but that they are great now. He has never and does not want to discuss the A though.

I have told him about the MB program but because of his stubborn headedness about leaving the past in the past he is not really interested in coming here himself because he does not want to talk about the affair AT ALL.

And like I said earlier I think things are really great in our M too. But maybe because we did not discuss things or maybe it is just a "side effect" of an A I just can not quit thinking about things that were said and things I would like to know. But why do I feel like I need to know them. I mean will it makes things better or worse? Because the questions I want to ask will not have pretty answers I am sure. So should i put myself through that when things seem to be going well except for me feeling insecure.

In order for you to recover and move on, you have to have all the pieces so you understand the BIG PICTURE. This is all information about your own life that was withheld from you. Each BS will need a different level of detail, but ALL of them need to have their questions answered to their satisfaction by a willing spouse. Trust cannot be rebuilt if the WS still maintains secrets with the OP to which the BS is not privy. That fence of secrecy needs to come down in order to rebuild trust and build intimacy.

The best explanation of this is found in Joseph's letter, IMO. I will post it next.

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thanks ML. This letter is what i received from MG and LA. I have it and i have all my questions written down but i still am wondering if the answers to my questions will make a difference or not.

I just feel so awful most of the time now and i really do not like it. I make myself and him miserable because i start thinking about all of my unanswered questions and then I blow every little thing out of proportion (or at least i think i do).

But if he does not want to talk about it will it make things worse if i push the issue.

Hi S_C,

I HAD to know the answers to my questions... I'm not normally a "detail" oriented person, but when it came to questions about Mrs. RIF's A's... I left NOTHING out...

So, I fully agree that the BS has the RIGHT to know anything and everything that they want/need.

I also believe that it is the HUSBAND's responsiblity to protect and care for his W, even if she is the one that strayed... so for me, I had to learn how to make a "safe" place for Mrs. RIF so that she would open up and start answering my questions. Based on my personal belief, and for YOUR situation, I would tell your H that it is HIS responsiblity to share EVERYTHING with you.

If he's not willing to do so, then YOU must decide if you are willing to continue to remain married to him. If he continues to withold answers to your questions, if he continues to refuse to talk about the A, then HE is SHOWING you that he is not willing to protect you.

You must decide if you are willing to live the rest of your life with a man that won't protect and care for you...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I guess i already knew this. I just really wanted to save my M but i do not know that i can get past this A. I let him come back home and think i should not have because i am still just so hurt and angry over it all and i do not know how to deal with my emotions about the whole darn thing. I think maybe it is just best if we end everything then we neither one will continue to be miserable.

Hey S_C,

I ALWAYS am in favor of trying to rebuild a M.

But I also realize that some M just can't be rebuilt for whatever reasons.

If your H is not willing to help you heal and show you that he is willing to protect you, then IMHO, it will be VERY hard for you two to rebuild your M.

Oh, you could "exist" together... and that sounds like what your H would like... and he would be free to continue to do whatever he wanted with no consequences.

Mrs. RIF and I spent over 10+ years "acting like nothing ever happend"... and I always KNEW that there was something missing in our M.

Like I said earlier, only YOU can decide what you are willing to live with...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF. I have had a really bad week this week and am feeling very sorry for myself and making us both miserable like i tend to do when i start thinking.

I have tried so many times to talk to him that now that i have Joseph's letter and my questions in hand i am not sure that i want to talk about it and save our M. I just get really angry because i feel like i am doing all the work.

I am not always in favour of rebuilding a marriage.

Sometimes I am..it just depends

Only and only you know that answer to your own question.

I do not believe this is about your husband, because it is all about you.

This is about what you want..and dreams don't count.
You know about you best, you know what is going on for you, you are your own expert.

Trust you.

Peace

Max

Hey S_C,

Yep, been there-done that! I think many BS feel this way for a a long period of time until the WS finally "gets it".

Like MadMax said, ony YOU can decide when enough is enough...

Have you and your H gone through any sort of MC?

Semper Fi,

RIF

Unfortunately it is at 1st you doing all the work. BUT if you can get your questions answered you should have a better idea of what you are dealing with. THEN you can decide better what you want to do about it.

In Joseph's letter you'll notice the wording something like, not knowing my mind runs wild with images that may or may not be true. KNOWING won't necessarily make you feel better, but you'll know for sure. And sometimes it's not as bad as you've imagined...sometimes it's worse.

I HAD to know the why. I'm not sure I've gotten the truest of true answer but I have gotten a better look at who my WH is and I can understand (not agree) with his version of why.

I didn't think "we" could make it either before I knew why. Once I did, I started the plan A, and learning about ME and why I react the way I do. I also started recognizing parts of him that never made sense to me but now seem a little clearer.

For me not knowing why, etc. I COULD NOT, DID NOT want to work on M. I wanted OUT and FAST.

You've been dealing with this for a while. EVEN if you decide it's over won't having some answers at least calm your mind? JUST remember Waywards have a way of avoiding the whole truth, listen...listen carefully...think about what is said, let it sink in. Maybe end convo then, think about it and come back to ask for clarification or address inconsistances. Don't LB, expect to hurt, LISTEN, WATCH HIS ACTIONS, decide if his actions and words go together. At this point what do you have to lose?

I hope you find some peace.

No we have not went to MC.

As i have said he WILL NOT talk about the A everytime i have tried i get leave the past in the past and look to the future.

Right now though i just feel like i do not want to try anymore. I think i will just stay until my youngest child graduates and then start a new life.

I am tired of feeling like i am his second choice (through my own thoughts nothing he has said).

Wow, are you SURE? This guy was a good husband and father BEFORE the affair, got hooked up with a sleazy ho, and now is back to himself, and you want to give up?

This is very fixable.

Would he talk to the Harleys on the phone?

He WILL NOT talk about it at all. I have tried for several months and he will not talk about it so i doubt very seriously that he would talk to anyone.

And i think i am very sure that this is what i want to do. I just can not get over the hurt and it is not fair to either of us to stay in a M that we are miserable in.

Have you told HIM that? Sometimes it takes the really hard knock in the head with WH's to realize JUST how unbareable you see the situation. Would you consider MC? What about him? ARE you willing to give it another shot if the MBer's here walk you through MB program?

You need to do some soul searching, what are you gaining by D? Are you willing to give the MB program a chance? WH's CAN respond IF you give the program a chance. Are there other resentments, issues besides the A? Are you willing to change/recognize YOUR part in the M?

(((Peace)))

Thanks for all of your advice but i do not think i am willing to work on it anymore. I will not gain anything by a D except that i will not be miserable anymore and neither will he. Signing off for good i am done.

I wish you the best in whatever you do. I hope you will check back here to help YOU heal. (((prayers)))

Thanks mvg. I will need help to heal. He was the only man i ever had eyes for since i met him. I just hate that he did this to us.