thanks, believer.
I just read the 'he'll be different with you' essay, which was pretty funny/enlightening for me. BUT, i still feel that he won't ever end it. i'm sure that's how everyone feels..?! but they do seem to have such a connection AND -- i think she offers him the life I can't. No kids, responsibilities - the free life living in an apartment in the city, painting all day and night together. I can't imagine how he will ever choose to leave her/that for us. I don't know how our scenario can look atrractive enough for him to quit his addiction?

But maybe I shouldn't get so caught up in thinking about this? If he doesn't want the beautiful family God gave him - I can't really change that, right?

Does it matter right now how I act when I see him?

Like when he came in to say goodbye, I was just brief. (He asked, 'how was your time' and I said 'good.' etc.) Even though everything in me wants to fight; to either be really sweet and discuss deep things and make him remember why he wants to be here, or to 'convince him' to do the right thing! when he left I just felt like i should have said more..

You did just fine. Trying to reason with a WS or "convince" them is a big waste of time.

Yes, she offers a "free" lifesyle, but you are his wife and the mother of his children. She can't compete with that.

It sounds like you are getting the hang of this now.

thanks, believer.

I'd really love to hear from some people about plan B - I was up most of the night thinking about it (well, that and a sick four-yr old!). I'm really worried that if I go forward with it he's going to get upset and start making things harder for me. I mean, legally he can use the house or the car, right? I don't have a way of 'not letting him' use them? or if it just makes him so frustrated that he starts pursuing the divorce more rapidly, is that okay?

thanks..

Phoenix4, I can't advise you about Plan B. I didn't do it.

I do have a suggestion about a neutral place for your H to see the kids, if your church has a community room or an empty classroom they would allow you to use. Would you be able to talk to the pastor for help with this?

My thoughts on your WH pursuing the divorce more rapidly: What I've seen on the Boards and in my own marriage, is that even if the WS moves out or moves in with the OP, it isn't complete divorce they want. They want fence sitting, cake eating. They want the BS to not make waves, to not expose, they want the BS not to Plan B.

They want 2 lovers; the spouse keeping the facade of home, the fiction that the WS is a good person. And the OP, the "soul mate", lives out a fantasy with the WS.

They want the spouse to "make do", to budget, to cut back on their extravagences (like dental care, haircuts, meat on the table) so that they can make a home with the soul mate and honeymoon before marriage. They want the spouse to "make do" with no affection, warmth or respect while they attend work events with the OP.

They want the WS to hide their face, be quiet, and hope that if they don't make trouble for the BS, things will go back the way they were.

The BS thinks that if they just reason with the WS and educate the WS, that will make a difference. The BS thinks that if they cross examine the WS, the WS will "get it" and stop the affair.

So speaking theoretically, and not as a veteran of Plan A-and exposure, and Plan B, I encourage you to expose a la Melody's posts, and find an intermediary to help with if need be with Plan B.

Lastly, please follow Charlotte22's thread. She is doing really well with the MB plan.

MB doesn't guarantee you can recover. It seems counter-intuitive. But it will preserve your sanity and your self-respect and make it possible for you to rebuild. It removes the pink veil of romance from the adulterous affair. Makes it seem what it really is; wart covered, sneaky, dishonest. It frees up co-workers who have observed the affair but not commented because they don't want to meddle in other people's business, to speak up. Once the BS goes public with the WS's infidelity, anyone who has thought they were "seeing things" knows that it wasn't their imagination.

A supervisor might become aware of long lunches, coincidental absences of the two cheaters at the same time; of colleagues picking up the slack for the distracted lovers. A manager might realize there is a potential for a lawsuit against the company.

Even if the WS loses a job and has to look for another one, what is left is the marriage. What is left is the family. Reality. There are thousands of jobs. There is only one family, and if that is destroyed, the harm is lifelong.

thankyou bellevue. it is so hard to just think clearly, and so nice to hear confirmation about moving forward. it was such a hard night last night - my boys and I ALL had nightmares all night. i don't know how much it had to do with H being in the house the night before, but it sure made me feel uncomfortable. i know he's not walking in the light right now, so who knows what kind of spiritual junk comes in with him..?

your assesssment of what he wants is right (cakeeater) - BUT, even meeting with the lawyer thus far did not seem to dissuade him from her. like i said earlier, i'm not really sure anything will at this point. planB almost seems more for my own sanity, if i can figure out how to make it work.

i'm also just scared because i feel so dependent on him, financially (i don't make any money right now, am just home with the kids). i don't know how hard he can make it for me..

As I'm trying to put together ideas for 'the really dark Plan B' with three small children, I'm wondering about this: Someone mentioned earlier that he shouldn't have any access to our house or car. I agree - that would feel best to me. But is it possible? My lawyer pretty much said earlier that if he didn't have anywhere else to stay that he legally could still live in this house. Should I just be thankful that he's not living here, and not press my luck? Or is there a legal-way I don't see? Should I encourage him to get his own place or car?

Have your attorney specify in the papers that you get the house and the car. Then when this is done, change the locks. Don't encourage him to do anything, he is a grown up and can find his own lodgings.

phoenix4, have you consider suing OW for alienation of affection. Do some research on it. I believe Illinois is one of the few states that recognize this law but it's a tort action only. Wouldn't it be nice if it's also a criminal as well?

wow, thanks window90 - that's crazy. i will ask my lawyer about it. so far i've not been too impressed with illinois law about all this!! (no-fault state, etc.)

Save the Marriage vs. Divorce: As I try to get my thoughts in order, I'm realzing how much harder things may get as I move into more deliberate plan B (vs. just proceeding with the divorce.) I understand that no one can really tell me what to do or make the choice for me, I guess I'm just wondering if there are any specific things to consider about going forward? Are there certain things that seem to make some marriages salvageable and others not? The thing i come back to the most is my kids -- but in the long run, does it seem better/worse to make a choice for them..?

phoenix, the things I am telling you are intended to save your marriage, not destroy it, if it can be saved. The only reason I am suggesting filing for D is to protect you financially while you are in Plan B. Filing for D is not choosing D, lots of ppl file and they never get divorced. I think once you file and get all your ducks in order, you should ask your atty to drag his feet.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned, p. In case this does lead to a divorce, Plan B will PREPARE you for that eventuality emotionally and materially. You will have seperated your lives in a way that emulates divorce so you will be better prepared if it does happen. You will be better positioned in every way.

It also gives him an idea of what life as a single person will really be like. By allowing him in your lives like this, he can have it both ways, which protects him from the reality of single life.

I would like to add that, if you do plan to do Plan B, you may want to consider doing it ASAP. Plan B + Holidays Coming + Holiday without Family could be a powerful wakening tool for him.

If you do go to Plan B, don't do a lousy one, as it can be counter productive and even backfire.

From what you describe you husband is bipolar.

Bipolars suffer from bouts of hypomania to extreme levels of depression which follow. Hypomania makes them feel cool and it's like a rush of ubbling energy where they feel like they are cool sexy, essentially extremely desirable and "popular".

The subsequent depression causes the desire and need for the cool period to start again. Hence the reason affairs are usually very attractive to bi polar individuals.

bipolars need both medications and counseling. Often they may have meds but they may not be the right ones. However meds alone cannot help them cope with their "cycling" through their various states.

thankyou ALL (so much)

yes - i understand that filing does not mean definite divorce. i guess i'm feeling like the more stringent plan B is going to be really more physically difficult on me and the kids, so wondering if it's worth it to try and save the marriage still (by attempting planB)? would it be better to just quit trying and go forward with the D? BUT, I do see how planB would feel emotionally better for me than things are now- and that is a good point that it will at least better separate/prepare me for D if it happens.

W90 - what are some characteristics of a lousy plan B?

i did just talk to my lawyer who said i can try this (he thinks it's good, btw) - and demand things this way. but in the end, if WH fights it, he could still have visitation in the house, usage of the car, etc.

411- i have thought all year that he might be bi-polar, especially bi-polar2. his grandma is bipolar also. but is there anything i can really do with that info, even if i'm right?

lastly - he continues to say (and i mostly believe him - as much as you can believe someone with 'liarrhea'!) that he is going to check himself into this 9-5 clinic. supposedly starting next week, for 2-3weeks. the idea was that he would not see her during this time. i've been kind of waiting to file, since he is still paying all the bills et., hoping that if he goes and there is an extenuating factor like bipolar that maybe he could start getting help and it would make some difference, or for clearer choices?

but everything i've read on this site seems to indicate that if he does continue to see her then, or talk to her at night, or see her right afterward - any help there would just be out the window, correct?

so should i just file anyway, and take advantage of the whole holiday scenario you guys mentioned..? or wait and see how it plays out..?

The best thing you can do with the bipolar information is inform yourself. The better you udnerstand bipolar and bipolar II the better you can understand what he's going through and you will be able to adjust your attitude based on his "cycling"

You need to make sure he's taking his meds without seemingly like you're watching him you need to make sure he has a very good diet and he needs to be exercising.

The problem is the bipolars don't believe that anyone understands them but another bipolar. The more info you have the better you can understand the issues he deals with on a daily/weekly basis.

Bottomline he needs counseling for his bipolar before you can fix the marriage.

Phoenix, if you file for divorce you will be the petitioner and the controller of the suit (unless he cross-files, which is rare) and you can dismiss it on down the road making him refile and start the clock ticking all over again. In the meantime, once you file, you can ask for "temporary orders" which will provide for you and kids financially, spell out custody arrangments and order who gets use of what. This will leave you protected while you decide what to do and how to do it. Later on down the road you can either dismiss the suit or go forward.

This will give you time to get your head on straight, prepare for a sterling Plan B, set up an intermediary to help you deal with the visitation and other financial issues and more. It will also prevent him from doing away with any of the marital assets and cause him to be accountable financially.

And as Melody so wisely suggested, once you file, tell your attorney to drag it out as long as possible by doing nothing that is not absolutely a court-ordered deadline (he works for you!)

It will also send him a message that you're not playing. You are seriously fighting for your family and your marriage. Your Plan B letter can also explain your reasons for filing (i.e. he's a WS and therefore not trustworthy to look out for his family at this time.)

phoenix, there is no reason for you to delay your plan. Even if he is diagnosed with whatever it won't make a difference in what is required to put your marriage back together. He will still have to dump his OW and commit to your marriage.

Hi phoenix,

When you do end up filing, it will hurt. I held up really well when I talked to my attorney while filling out the paperwork to get started but once I was out the door I cried. I cried most of the way home.

Luckily, Melody and my DIL helped me while I was driving (ala handsfree device!) and everyone on the boards got me back in a better frame of mind.

Now we've had our temp hearing and "Mr. Gray" is mad at me because HE agreed to everything my lawyer put forth. The day of the hearing, he had his lawyer draft a letter accusing me of making anonymous calls to his office. (I saw it, the date was THE day! I just KNEW it before I even saw it!)

Poppycock! Thanks to everyone here, my family and my lawyer I have been able to see this crap for what it is. Wayward games.

I'm going to go into Plan B within the next two weeks. 411 has been in Plan B for nearly 3 weeks now. Talk to 411, a fresh Plan B'er. There are others here who have been in longer. Read their threads also.

Best of luck, phoenix! I'll see you around!!

Take care,

Charlotte