Need some advice please...

My husband turned to a female co-worker with his personal problems several years ago. He told her that his marriage was in trouble; she gave him "The Five Love Languages" to read. After our first son was born, I became extremely sick (later diagnosed with Crohn's Disease); he turned to her to pour out his problems. He stopped coming home after work; instead he'd call her to talk. She gave us clothes and gifts for our baby.

I found the cell phone records in 2002 and confronted him. This was before I found MB, but I knew the relationship was inappropriate due to the volume of the calls. I asked him to limit his discussions with her, and to start spending more time with me and our baby.

In 2005, he told me that this woman thought I should have a tubal ligation (I was considering it). By then I was familiar with MB and told him to stop discussing our life with her.

I believe he phased out his friendship with her and has not had contact for 2 years. No "no contact" letter was ever sent to her, because I wasn't sure if it was a reciprocated emotional affair. I have no evidence that she felt any more than normal friendship for him, but I do know that my husband's feelings for her crossed the line.

The current problem: This woman recently contacted my husband by email. He told me about it immediately and said he would not reply to her. Her email was friendly but not inappropriate.

My question: should she get a "no contact" letter or just silence? She has all his work contact information.

Thanks everyone!
~Saturn

Background: He (40 years old) had several physical affairs and a history of inappropriate friendships with women from 1989-2002. He confessed to the physical affairs in 2006. I (38 years old) had an emotional affair with an ex-boyfriend in 2004, confessed in 2004. We've been in recovery for 15 months from his affairs and for 3 years from my affair. We have two sons age 7 and 2.

NC letter is in order. He had an inappropriate relationship with a woman and while the letter would likely be modified from the norm, I do think one is in order.

I agree that some sort of no contact letter is in order, clearly stating that he now realizes that the discussions and relationship/friendship he had with her in the past was inappropriate.

Also, if she is married her husband needs to be informed.

Does she still work with him?

One more thing: I was married to a serial adulterer for 25 years. As far as I know he did not commit adultery for a decade after our youngest daughter was born... but then he 'fell in love' with an OW right when he was going through his midlife crisis. With serial adulterers there is a very high recidivism rate. IC as well as MC is usually advised in order to address and fix the cause of the serial adultery. Did your husband go to counseling long enough to discover and change the problems (most likely from his past - before he even met you) that led to him becoming a serial adulterer?

I would be very careful in wording any letter or communication to her H. We don't know that she has done anything wrong or if this was totally one sided on the H's part. I think he needs to be contacted...but I think it needs to be worded carefully and should garner his support to keep these two apart. SR should speak to her H and hopefully will get total honesty as to whether this woman was anything more than nosey.

I have an opinion ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


YES! I think a very special NC letter is in order.

Here's the deal -





[color:"red"]" To OW -

This letter is to inform you that I have a very long history of unfaithfulness in my marriage. I have been both physically and emotionally unfaithful many times. I am now committed to my marriage, my wife, our 2 sons. As a faithful husband I am never going to develop any "friendships" with any woman other than my wife. This includes you. Never contact me again. I must guard my integrity closely. Do not respond to this request. Silence forever is the correct response." [/color]

Your husband needs to show himself as a wolf in sheep's clothing --- this will forward HIS growth as a husband.

Good luck

While I agree wholeheartedly that a strict NC letter should be sent, I do not agree with the content. SR's H has been too open in the past with this woman about himself and their personal marital issues. How does revealing more in a NC letter help? The idea is to create distance, not foster intimacy. He's revealing a pretty intimate detail here.

SR, are you ok with your H's infidelities being revealed to someone you would like out of your life?

I think that SR and her H ought to POJA the content of the letter.

As for the wolf in sheep's clothing, if SR's H is truly a *F*WH, viewing himself as a wolf in sheep's clothing is not helpful. Wolves do not tell their wives about contact, they conceal it. He did tell her about the contact, she didn't discover it on her own. That's significant, IMO.

My .02

PK

Thank you all for the comments and opinions! All are appreciated; I have been struggling with what to do about this and am glad to have input from others to help me and my husband make a decision.

As meremortal pointed out, my husband has deep issues that have driven his behavior- they are not caused by me or any OW. I did not know about the extent of his issues until we went into marriage counseling- we lucked out and found a fantastic woman who was able to uncover the abuse he suffered and covered up until this year (yes he is in IC and we are in MC). Compared to him, I had a fairytale childhood and I am amazed that he has functioned so well in life. He outwardly appears to have it all together, which is what attracted me to him!

Honesty is extremely difficult for him and so it is essential that I reward him for telling me about the contact from this woman. He may view a NC letter as punishment, or at least embarrassing. I’d like to avoid that if possible so he can continue to see radical honesty as a good thing.

The other downside to a NC letter is that this woman may be completely innocent and a letter may be insulting to her. It may backfire and lead to further contact as she tries to “clear up” any misunderstanding.

The flip side is that an NC letter will allow us to feel “closure” for at least this relationship. Part of my resentment over his affairs is that they were so long ago that NC letters, exposure, and plans A/B have not been relevant to our recovery. Also, IF this woman is not innocent then NC is entirely appropriate. In answer to penaltykill’s question: yes I’m ok with this woman knowing my husband’s past if it will help prevent future affairs . It’s just so hard to tell with the scant information I have available.

My husband and I are trying hard to work through our problems, and we are progressing albeit very slowly. Our counselor says that it will take years for him to process his past and learn new coping techniques - I hope to be a helpful partner to him as he deals with his demons. I actually do not fear another affair by him, because he and I both know that will lead to divorce.

I think of my husband as a sheep who adopted wolf’s clothing in order to survive… and is now trying to shake off his disguise. It’s hard, because the wolf is familiar to him and served him well when he was so young and vulnerable.

Thanks again for the comments everyone!
~Saturn

How about having him send something simple and to the point?

"OW, I saw your email and wanted to let you know that over the years I've learned how risky it is to share personal/relationship/feelings with someone who's not your spouse. This may have led to some of the difficulties in my own marriage, which is why I'm now very careful not to run that risk anymore. Given that, I want to thank you for the email but also let you know that I don't want to risk my marriage by sharing these kinds of things with someone outside of my marriage. Good luck to you going forward."

Not angry, not attacking...but also setting a clear boundary.

Why is the information about this OW's past with your husband unavailable to you?

I'm really honored to have your opinion and time, Pep! You really have a knack for finding the root of the problem. Thank you so much for checking in here with me.



It is because of this: my husband has a very, very hard time with honesty. I've posted about this in other threads ( here is one) . He has even lied to me recently. The advice from people here at MB is to make it "safe" for him to tell me the truth. If he senses that I'll become upset, he will withhold information in order to avoid trouble. This is a coping mechanism that runs very deep with him- he started this behavior as a young child.

He knows that Radical Honesty is our goal and our marriage is superficial without it. It will take some time. I will be patient to a point; he knows I will not live forever with him as things are now.

I have scant information on this woman because I've not asked many questions about her. I've focused my questions on his physical affair partners. At this stage of our recovery, I've limited my questions so that he feels safer with me. His guilt and low esteem have been stumbling blocks for us.

Thanks again Pep
~Saturn

ETA: So, the bottom line: if I ask about her, he may not be completely honest with his answers. At 14 months into recovery, I have chosen to limit questions and instead to look carefully at his behavior.

I guess it makes it safe for H when you don't ask questions. Sounds "perfect" for H to remain comfortably hidden. But lacks intimacy, for sure.

You mentioned you don't want to "embarrass" your H. What if your choice is embarrassing intimacy or comforting denial?



I think looking at his behavior is a super idea. Behavior includes radical honesty .... hopefully.

Be caurious of making H a victim of his past. My H says daily "My name is *** and I am an alcoholic" .... which was highly embarrassing for him in the beginning.

Looking at his behavior is good. His guilt is appropriate. The way to build self esteem is to stop making excuses .... he did what he did because it pleased him to do it.



I think if this is your goal, then you need to ask the tough questions.

Good luck

A thought about making it "safe" for him to tell the truth.

There is some truth to this. For example..if telling the truth will result in "ABUSE" then it isn't safe.

This is different than it resulting in a CONSEQUENCE...see he has been using deceit as a CONTROL MECHANISM.

So losing that control will not feel "safe" to him...but that is his property and nothing you can do about it.

If safe has to = no consequences then he will never be safe and you will never be honest/intimate.

He will have to ENDURE the discomfort of loss of control and you will have to control the desire to abuse [AO, DJ, ect] in order for honesy to occur.

Yes, that is the part I'm working on!

Thanks Noodle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you read my link, less than one month ago my husband lied to me. However- last week he told me about this woman's email without prompting. I hope this indicates some progress.

I do not expect my husband to use his past as an excuse. However, I accept it as a reason that explains his past behavior. He is an adult now, he knows what I expect, and he knows the consequences if he does not change.

My part: patience, hope, being safe for him. Can you help me Pep: how do I ask the tough questions and maintain his feeling of safety? It is hard for me to walk that delicate line. I worry that he will retreat if I make a mistake.

ETA: He will be reading this. He posts here as "Messdup"

You can't maintain his feelings. You can choose to not abuse him as a result of wha he discloses.

Which means you can say..I am ANGRY..so angry I am frothing a the mouth ! and STILL not be abusing.

If he has been using deceit to control he will not *feel* safe losing ha conrol.

He has to choose..will he lead with his feelings or with his principles?

PS don't mind my dying "t"

I think my husband disagrees. He told me that he feels my anger is harmful to him. He has said in the past that he would be more likely to be honest with me if I didn't show negative emotion (becoming upset, angry, or depressed) when he presents me with the truth.


Here is a quote from Dr. Harley that backs up my husband's thoughts on this:

"When you become angry with your spouse, you threaten your spouse's safety and security -- you fail to provide protection."

The whole article is linked here: angry outbursts

What do you think Noodle? Am I misinterpreting? The good Dr. sets the bar rather high, but it is in line with what my husband says to me.

PS Sorry about your t. Looks like the capital T works. There must be a joke in there somewhere... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WEll your Hs inerpretation sets up a double standard..in order for your H to be hones you can not be. A failure at the outset.

Now I completely agree that AOs are abusive and unsafe but simply STATING what your feelings are without attaching anything else to them is the key.

You can say..I feel angry, I feel disappointed, I feel frusrated..and leave it at that.

It's when you go further and add the DJs etc.

I feel so angry because YOU...YOU make me so angry...

Do you see the difference?

Self control is key and part of self conrol is recognising your limits.

So to give an example...giving in to anger might look like throwing a chair through the window while saying I am angry!
Or stomping around and slamming things or yelling ..these behaviors are understood to indicate that you have "become angry".

Calmly stating that you FEEL angry about the information is not ANGRY behavior or abusive in any way.

In fact it's usefull knowledge and it is honest and transparent. To do what your H requests you would essentially be asked top not bleed when you are cut.

Don't be hurt by this hurtfull information...don't be angry when I have offended you..don't feel what you feel.

Emotioanl honesty requires that you acknowledge your feelings but care of spouse requires that you not be RULED by that emotion.

You can feel anger without having an Angry Outburst. If your Hs behavior makes you angry, you need to be able to tell him that so he can either modify or explain his behavior.

See, it works both ways. He has to provide you a safe way to express yourself to him. If he is unable or unwilling to hear anything negative from you, you will start bottling up your feelings, which will lead to you withdrawing from him. In my W's case, this contributed to her decision to have an affair.

Thank you Tyk and Noodle.

I don't believe I make angry outbursts (if I do, it's rare).

I say: "I'm angry"

He hears: "You're a f*ckup"

He is working on changing that filter with our counselor (he sees her individually for IC).

I'm working on making him feel safe. One thing I learned is that anger is actually a secondary emotion (it is often rooted in fear). So, if I say "I'm scared" instead of "I'm angry", he still feels safe and I'm still being honest.

Not easy, and I'm learning as I go, but I have hope we will achieve our goal.