Krazy,
Believe it or not, I've spent the morning reading all but a dozen or so of your posts. Take my observations and questions at face value and ignore if you don't think they're applicable.

What do you really want? If your W starting having sex with you at your whim and in whatever fashion you wanted, would that be enough?

Given how you feel, why are you still in the marriage? Do you feel trapped or otherwise unable or unwilling to move on?

Your anger/rage is complicated by adding infidelity in your marriage to what you experienced as a child. What, if anything, can bring you some measure of peace? Do you need to confront your mother and let her know exactly how you feel?

Now for some observations by me...Nothing has really changed in your anger level since you came here. Regardless of how justified you are and/or how repentent your W is, she is not going to respond positively to you as long as you carry your burden. Go back in this thread and read(or re-read) BrambleRose's replies to you. They were right on.

You said:"The bottom line is that I owe her nothing more now than before the A, but she DOES owe me a helluva lot more now than before the A...and I'll be damned if I begin to pay up first."...

While I totally understand feeling this way, nothing positive is going to happen while this continues. It's not fair at all, I know, but life rarely is.

Your D-day was of such a type that I don't think it could be worse. It may very well be possible that you will *never* get over it. If that's the case, you really need to think about removing yourself from the situation before your rage gets out of control.

At this point, you need to be very introspective and honest in trying to figure out exactly what you want and need. What within the realm of possibility can put you on the road to being whole?

Your humble correspondent...

YOu can't survive in a M where one of you is in a constant state of indebtedness (you OWE me). Nobody wins, and everybody loses.

I am a FWW. My husband (while he did not physically witness the affair, it was with someone known to him and lives directly across the street from our house) I'm sure felt the same way as Krazy. I think ALL men have a certain amount of territorialism associated with their wives and PART of the problem is that some other man TOOK something that BELONGED to him. I can understand this in a fundamental, caveman kind of way.

I guess what I am saying is that IF Krazy knows he will not get past this (and I don't know whether he KNOWS this or not, but I suspect that he's thinking he's never going to get past it) then staying just to prove a point or to force her into submission (not physically, obviously, but psychologically) isn't doing anybody any good.

There are some people that CANNOT get past an affair. And that is perfectly okay. Not everybody can get "over" it. And I have seen examples of supposedly "recovered" relationships on this board in which the BH definitely settles for crumbs and continues to be trampled and mistreated by their "F"WW. And I believe that is wrong too, on the WW's part.

If either party does not truly, willingly, want to be in the relationship and to do the work that needs to be done to recover, then recovery will never be successful...no matter how pretty you can dress it up. By the same token, if one member of the relationship continues to abuse the other (even emotionally "...like licking a public urinal...") then recovery will not happen either.

In this case, I don't believe Krazy wants to do the WORK necessary to recover his marriage. He truly and honestly believes that it is HER job, and only HER job, to to ALL of the work to recover the marriage. I'm simply saying he is going to be extremely disappointed at how things turn out in the end.

He doesn't want to follow the MB principles. He came here for advice, but absolutely REJECTS the ideas of MB. If he doesn't want to do any of the MB work, then I truly don't see how we can help him.

It gives him a boost to have all the guys tell him he's right (and I'm NOT AT ALL saying that his feelings are not justified, ******, I'd probably have walked away and never looked back if I personally saw this)...but that won't fix his marriage either.

I think that is was not your typical emotional affair as noted by Krazy....with deep emotional connection between his wife and OM

Krazy's wife used the OM for pure sexual gratification...there could even be aspects of sado/masochism issues here...

she may have taken great risks to herself...her own life and her childs...(I believe she was pregnant as well during this....)and her spouses...

this arises the possible issues that a spouse USES sex for purposes other than intimacy and and closeness...but to meet other needs..

need for pain
need to be degraded, controlled
need to be scared need to be risky...

she may very well have those types of needs....
and it may be she can not get those fullfilled by her spouse...because he isn't that type of man...

she loves him
she trusts him..

and could never ever treat him like the OM
OR
let herself be treated that way by him...

this issue goes way deeper than an enthusiastic partner...based on the relationship of the her and OM...

you can not veiw one sided snippits and and boil it down to such black and white...truths....

there is no doubt that the OM met some type of need in his wife for her to do what she did....

but that doesn't mean we or even he really knows what that need is...at this point...



even if she was in to really creepy control pain stuff..that doesn't mean she has to have it ...but it may mean that she never can get those things from her spouse...and there for may never be able to treat her spouse the way she treated her OM..especially if there were control and pain and or dominance issues....

but she can get other things...if there is willingness from both to work together...
things of great meaning and value in her relationship with her husband...

but may never be the same to the OM..cause that may have been some thing totally different than intimate sex...

Ark

Well see now I think she DOES need to essentially bow down and beg his forgiveness...Remember that Dr. Harley compares adultery to rape or the death of a child...It simply IS that serious...The way I see it as a FWW, forgiveness over an affair is NOT owed, it is a GIFT...It should be earned through "just compensation" which would indicate genuine remorse and repentance...I wonder what, if anything, Krazy's wife is doing towards helping him to heal...Does she tell him how incredibly remorseful that she is? Does she show him?

And my understanding of Krazy's wife's affair is this...She planned it...It was premeditated...sex for sex's sake...There was no emotional connection to OM...Krazy doesn't believe in the "fog" and you know what? In his case I'm not sure that I would either...When I think about his wife's affair I liken it to what it would feel like to have your spouse go to that heinous website AshleyMadison.com and just go looking for any person to get it on with...Right or wrong there is a part of me that sees his wife's affair in a bit of a different category than your run of the mill affair...And I would be ANGRY too...and DEVASTATED...and CONFUSED...and all sorts of other jumbled up feelings...

I could be wrong, but I don't think Krazy is saying that he now has earned the right to behave anyway that he wants-If that was the case I guess he'd be out having an affair of his own or beating her...It's been my understanding that Krazy uses MB to vent his anger and hurt over what he's been subjected to...I don't think he has been taking this out on her...In fact I wonder if she even knows how devastated that he is. I wonder if she realizes that they are at an "impasse"...Does she know what he needs to heal? I think she should know...I hope that Krazy is telling her...I hope that she is reading books, in IC, doing everything in her power to be transparent with him...I hope she is telling him how grateful that she is to have him as her husband...And I think she should be breaking her neck to meet his needs...She should be LEADING this recovery imo...Figuring out why she behaved as she did...

All that being said, I do know that recovery is very much a TANDEM effort...You do have to give to get...I know that for us many of my actions towards Mr. W came because of his actions towards me, and vice versa...Also I got to know how much I hurt him, he told me, but I also I was allowed to read his journals from that time period...That brought me to a place of much empathy for him...It showed me just how egregious my actions had been...So I think it's important that they both be radically honest with one another...

Krazy, have you considered calling Steve Harley? Would your wife be open to that? I really think that could put you guys on the right path...get you on the same page so to speak...

Mrs. W

Nowhere does Dr. Harley state that a WS need to apologize. Certainly he recommends it, but he also recommends the BS apolgize the the WS for failing to meet important emotional needs that were promised at the time of marriage.

Krazy, if you don't want your wife anymore after what happened, then leave her. Simple as that.

If you do still want her, for any reason, even if only for the sake of the kids, then get your a$$ in gear and change your expectations.

Excerpts from Dr. Harley:

"I hope by reading these letters, you can see the emotional turmoil that infidelity inflicts on the remaining spouse. It is without a doubt the most painful form of abuse that one spouse can inflict on another. Many have told me that they would rather have been permanently crippled than to have experienced the unfaithfulness of their spouse. And yet, if love is to be restored to the marriage, the response to this suffering must be kindness, patience and understanding. It goes against all of our instincts to respond this way, but in most cases, it works."

"When you have this discussion, there is the Taker in you (see the Giver & Taker in my Basic Concepts) that will tell you to express your resentment over how much she has hurt you. Your Taker may even encourage you to let her lover have this ungrateful woman, so that you can find someone who will love you the way you are. You will be tempted to lose your temper, to say disrespectful things, try to straighten her out, and give her ultimatums.

If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere.

On the other hand, if you can convince her that her feelings are important to you, and you are dedicated to make decisions that are in her best interest, it will add greatly to your credibility. Right now, she is not convinced that you have put her first in your life. Convince her otherwise."

I suggest reading all the letters from "what to do with an unfaithful wife". I doubt you will, though, and if you do, I doubt you will take anything to heart.

You are exactly where I was at several months after my D-day. My FWW couldn't stand how I was treating her, which was really just more of the same crappy way I treated her before her A - arrogant, demanding, unsympathtic, and rude. And I felt justified in doing it.

Until I came home one night to an empty house. Yep - she Plan B'd ME. Only her Plan B quickly turned into Plan D, and now she is living happily ever after with the OM, who welcomed her back with open arms.

Again, if you don't want your wife, LEAVE HER! Otherwise, don't be surprised if she leaves YOU.

AOK

TOS rules:

Last warning MEDC. Do not touch a moderator's edit on your post.


REALLY? Wow...that is NOT a consistent rule. Is that in the terms of service?

**********
If you don't find credibility in my words, then you don't find credibility in Harley's, since I did little more than cut and paste his advise to other betrayed men.

Furthermore, if a string of edits renders my posts "incredible", ****edit*********

This is an OPINION board...

people here should be allowed to give their opinion...

it is my opinion that sometimes people may hear a story and feel that perhaps their marriage should not be built...

and others may feel that there is plenty to build on..

or that some may offer things not so much in the marriage builders way...but no more or less dangerous or damaging than any other advice...

but tit for tat
this or that
here or there...

they are all opinions...

and each is as entitled to theirs as the next...

and the poster who receives an opinion...holds the onus...
to decide from what they read ...what they choose to do or not to do...

my opinion also is that most importantly people should NOT ever make huge decisions without seeking counsel....advice from real life people...and those that love them that can offer their in put as well....and the objective as well the subjective...


ALL are guests of the Harley's...not of anyone elses...
and the modirators should be the ones to deal with the extremely extremely rare poster who have a specific harmful agenda....

THIS post of Aaron's...
broke no rules of the board...

and as much value as any one elses OPINIONS...

ARK

Wow, thanks for your learned words Ark. There is nothing in my post...or my expressed opinion that violates the TOS. I am suggesting that a poster check something out.

Your view of my posts is really not of interest to me. They are also none of my business.

If you have a problem with my posts in the future, I suggest you take it up with a moderator. Perhaps the edits of your posts in a recent thread, which were directed towards me, should provide to you a clue that your words were a violation of the TOS.

Excerpts from Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair:
(Page 84, hardcover edition)

Is an Apology Necessary?

A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of the affair.
<...>
It's very common for the wayward spouse to not feel remorse.
<...>
I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair. Of course, if remorse is actually felt by a spouse, I encourage that spouse to express it. I would like the wayward spouse to apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust and for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. But I would also like the betrayed spouse to apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that he or she had promised at the time of marriage, even if the failure was out of ignorance.


Dr. Harley does say that if the WS doesn't feel remorse, then he doesn't recommend that they just mouth the words.

I think that an ongoing lack of apology would a real hard pill to swallow for a great many folks.

I can only assume that the Harleys have actually dealt with enough couples and infidelity to know that it is possible and to still have something that qualifies as a good marriage (as determined by the couple) as opposed to one of bare toleration.

I think that is the general conception according to MB.

OTOH, with or without an apology, I think Krazy has way too much going on within and without to not call on and get help from people who can assist him with this.

Whether he chooses to stay in the marriage or divorce, this level of anger is not just going to dissipate without some assistance, IMO. And not finding some way to process it leaves his health - physical, mental and emotional - in a very vulnerable place.

Anger can kill.

I didn't say that Krazy's wife should just "mouth" the words...I SAID that it is my opinion that she should actually BE remorseful and say it and show it-From my own experience, I personally cannot imagine not feeling remorse...not expressing that remorse-having an affair was the WORST thing that I have ever done-it is unfathomable to me not to provide a truly heartfelt apology...I said that Krazy's wife should provide him with "just compensation"...I stand by MY OPINION...Thanks for your concern about my opinion graplin...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

He actually says it's not ALWAYS necessary for marital recovery. By extension, it would seem clear that sometimes marital recovery is IMPOSSIBLE without an apology.

That would be me.

TOS rules:
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly "false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

Lux et veritas. I would like to hear what was ABUSIVE about my post. I suggested to another poster to check a posters history before taking their words to heart. WHAT is abusive (since you wanted to add drama and highlight that word) about that? I attempted to email you and found no address at which to reach you.

You had said,

And Dr. Harley writes that marriages can and do recover from heinous betrayal even without an apology from the wayward.

It would not be my cup o' tea to go forward without remorse pretty early in the recovery process, but as I noted, Dr. Harley must have observed many couples who have recovered their marriages without an apology.

:shrug: YMMV



I didn't question your opinion, and IMO you are free to stand on it, next to it, or under it. Nor did I express any concern about your opinion.

As ark has noted, "This is an OPINION board...

people here should be allowed to give their opinion..."

And my opinion in response to "need to essentially bow down and beg his forgiveness" is that Dr. Harley wrote in SAA:

"I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair. Of course, if remorse is actually felt by a spouse, I encourage that spouse to express it. I would like the wayward spouse to apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust and for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. But I would also like the betrayed spouse to apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that he or she had promised at the time of marriage, even if the failure was out of ignorance."

I think Krazy's situation is well beyond being solved by an apology, remorseful or otherwise, IMO.

And everyone has the option of disagreeing, agreeing or not expressing an opinion at all.

I hear people say all the time on this board, that Dr. Harley's program is counterintuitive....and it is. It's one of the things that makes it so unique. I think it's one of the things that also makes it work I know everyone probably knows what this means....but just so we're on the same page and speaking the same language I want to share the definition from several dictionaries:

*contrary to what common sense would suggest
*contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate
* contrary to an intuitive belief or to common-sense expectations

What this means (I think) as it applies infidelity....is that what intuition or common sense might tell us we should do....is not what Dr. Harley often tells us TO do. When our spouse cheats on us....especially in the kind of traumatic way that Krazy's wife did....our instincts kick in (as they do for any threat) with a fight or flight response. Our common sense might tell us that our wayward spouse should do this or that....and they SHOULD.

But I think what Dr. Harley's program is all about....is the fact that our instincts (as it relates to recovering from (not detecting) infidelity) will usually get in the way of recovery. For instance....Plan A is all about doing what ISN'T expected.....because what most people do (rage, cry, beg, lash out, punish etc.) just doesn't yield good results for many people. Some people can use ultimatims, punishment, separation etc....and get their spouse back....but not most people. We don't need a counselor to tell us to get pissed off and make demands....we could do that all on our own. We need this stuff....because it's....counterintutive and it works.

I completely agree with everyone who said Krazy's wife should be begging her husband to keep her. She should be a tiger in the bedroom. She should do anything he wants. But what I learned from Dr. Harley....was that expectations about what a wayward spouse SHOULD do....is hardly ever what they do. And in order to get the kind of results he gets....you have to forget the shoulda woulda coulda....and concentrate on counterintuitive measures that get better results.

For instance....exposure. Exposure is VERY counterintuitive. When people have affairs....the tendency is to tell no one. Keep the dirty little secret quiet. Don't tell the kids. Don't tell the neighbors. Common sense and intuition might lead you to believe that the less people know the better. But that's not what works.

Krazy's wife deserves his anger. And Krazy deserves to BE angry. That's what common sense says, and that's the reality. But his intuition in that angry and threatened state probably won't help Krazy save his marriage.

There are spouses who have deep remorse and work very hard to show their willingness to work on the marriage. That's a betrayed spouses best case scenario. Those folks have the best chance of surviving an affair. They can benefit from Dr. Harley....but they are already on the right track. But there are an awful lot of wayward spouses who aren't remorseful....and I think those were the people that Dr. Harley really thought needed help. Rather than tell these people that they should just dump their spouse. Common sense would tell you that they aren't worth it. He didn't say that. His program took a completely different approach. He asked for apologies and forgiveness from both sides. He asked for an end to love busting and hurting each other. And he asked that betrayed spouse be willing to lead the marriage to recovery EVEN if the wayward spouse was not remorseful and not yet committed. He didn't say to do it forever. He didn't say to do it if you can't. Krazy may be one of those people who can't....at least right now....but making demands, or having expectations about his WW, or punishing her (despite the fact that she may deserve it) will not help.

My husband was not very remorseful for long. On d-day....sure....but when the drama faded....I really didn't see a whole lot of heartfelt contrition. But I was patient. And I followed this plan to recovery....and the day DID come where he finally told me what I needed to hear. That would never have happened if I had railed, raged and punished him. I allowed myself to do those things for about 5 hours....and then I looked for something more constructive to do.

Krazy....if you come back. I don't want to feed your anger. I don't blame you for being krazy-mad....but what grows is what we feed. If you want love to grow...and you want your wife to desire you....you have to feed those things. It's not easy....because you're the one whose been the most hurt....but you're also the one who is most capable of guiding this marriage in the right direction.

I'm worried about the intensity of your anger...for you. Who can you talk to who is a calming and grounding force in your life right now?

good post SF.

graplin...

I certainly KNOW what Dr. Harley has said-He says that an apology is "not always necessary" which implies that it sometimes IS necessary-I would venture to guess that even MANY times it is necessary in fact...I am stating MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS on this...I can tell you that *I* personally would NEED an apology to recover...*I* have given MANY apologies in our recovery, because TO ME it was necessary...Based on what Krazy has posted, I think he may feel the same regarding his situation, but only he can truly answer that...

Now, perhaps you will be relieved to learn that it is unnecessary for you to post just for the sake of contradicting my opinion-I'm all set! Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Perhaps you will realize that I will post what I choose to post and whether or not it agrees or disagrees with your opinion is neither here nor there, nor under your control.

Nor do I ask for or require your assessment or permission of what is necessary or unnecessary for me, in order for me to have the option to post.

And whether or not I make a direct response to you, is also not under your control. As if you have never posted an opinion in disagreement with another member - or are your opinions somehow sacrosanct and above disagreement?

Don't think so.

Your opinion was not the only one asserting that an apology was necessary. That you happened to be the last in line when I started my response is just the luck of the draw - sometimes it really isn't about you.

In your rush to make an issue where none existed, you seem to keep editing out the part in which I have said that I would personally need remorse/apology at some point before I would consider the marriage recovered. I totally agree that some marriages will not be restored without repentance. I also acknowledge that there will be marriages with very repentant WSs that also will not be restored.

Krazy may very well be one of those people who cannot continue without receiving remorse, apologies as well as what he feels has been denied him.

There is also a percentage of BS who cannot get over it, no matter how repentant and remorseful the WS might be. And it's not that the BS doesn't try. And Krazy may very well be one of those folks.

Feeding his existing anger about what his wife should be doing and how beggingly she should be doing it isn't conducive to either his healing or the marriages, IMO. Your opinion can vary.

But, none of us on this forum are, as far as I know, in some higher plane of existence, and their posts held in such high esteem that no one can disagree with them.

The way it works is this. Anyone can post an opinion and anyone can post an opinion that disagrees. You can post, I can post, all God's children can post.

Your opinion may vary. And since it isn't all about you and whether I can disagree with your opinions, I personally intend to return the thread back to Krazy's concerns and not yours.


Krazy, I strongly encourage you to seek assistance on the level of anger that you are currently experiencing. I am not judging or asserting that you should not feel this level of anger, I am only expressing concern that not only is it not healthy for you, it is downright dangerous.

Sorry you're having such a bad night graplin! Cheer up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W