I'm very sorry for the use of that word. It was inappropriate, and I apologize.


And for many, this is the best use of these bulletin boards. I wish you a speedy and smooth recovery.


That's one way to look at it, and perhaps it's true for some. For others, and mainly the ones who I know---the reason we stay is with a profound sense of gratitude for the help the Harley's have given us throughout the years. I consider this a form of community service---and it's one I do undertake with a great deal of serious. That's one of the reasons that I'm posting to you---my actions were inappropriate.

With regard to dysfunction---well, you wouldn't want to hear about that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


I wasn't looking down at you---I was overprotective of the MB 'turf'. And it has nothing with you not believing in God---although it did have something to do with the way you posted around the MB principles. Again, overzealousness came out---and I'm really sorry. I'm also a little rusty with regards to spending significant time on the board here...


And if you miss this due to the "ignore" feature---that's cool. But I am sorry, and I wish you peace, and happiness in your marriage.

K,

First things first ... APOLOGY ACCEPTED!!!!

If you can get past our differences to offer up such a heartfelt and articulate apology, then I can surely accept it in the same manner in which it was extended, and Thank You for taking the time to reflect on our exchange and start this thread.

Must be something about the Holiday season!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry that I haven't responded sooner ... I simply never noticed this new thread. Ace_in_Bucket actually copied/pasted your post in an email to my FWW (FogFree) and I still couldn't find it ... I thought it was just a response you posted to the "MEN BEWARE" thread ... I didn't think to look for another thread, until FogFree forwarded another email from Ace that straightened me out.

BTW, Ace ... you truly are a "JEWEL" ... Thanks for all you do.

K, just to offer a little additional insight into why I post as I do at times ...

1. I usually confine my posts to threads involving BH's and WW's. While there are definate similarities, I do see significant differences in the BH/WW scenario, as opposed to the BW/WH situations.

2. I've noticed basically two distinct personality types among BH's ... those who are "pissed" about their WW's A and are willing to do whatever is necessary to stop the A and give their M a chance, and those who are simply too paralyzed by fear at what their WW's will do if they had the courage to interfere in their WW's playtime.

3. One of the biggest issues in BH/WW situations is the level of respect between the couple. This seems to be a dynamic that is mostly non-existant in the BW/WH scenario. It is MHO that WW's lose respect for their BH's, and will only return to the M if that respect is reestablished. Basically, it is crucial for a BH to operate from a position of strength, in order to regain his WW's respect, for a true recovery to have a chance.

We see a lot of cases where a WW returns to the M, without that respect ... let's say she is coming back to the family only for the children as an example ... not because she has discovered that she truly does love and respect her BH after making a terrible mistake ... then these cases have a low probability of "success" as I would define it. The M may "survive", but it will never be "successful" without the WW having respect for her BH.

4. I will readily admit to being a Type "A", Alpha Male, which does appear to be somewhat of an underrepresented personality type on these forums. As a matter of fact, I was taken to task for making this statement, when I was first relaying my story here at MB. Apparently, some posters just don't relate well to my personality type and don't particularly feel that it fits with MB principles.

From my perspective, it appears A's are equal opportunity, and no personality type is unaffected. Therefore, I would think that I can relate to others with this personality better than some others, AND that I can be beneficial in helping some BH's to regain their self-esteem and confidence that will be necessary to carry them through the emotional rollercoaster ahead.

5. Coming from my Alpha Male perspective, there are certain things that WW's do that will prevent a "succesful" future for the couple. Basically, if a WW continues to engage in the A after D-Day, thereby "rubbing her BH's face in it", or if she were to get pregnant as a result of her A, or if she brought the OM into the marital home or around the couple's children, etc. as examples, there would be a VERY slim chance that this type BH would ever be able to get over this level of betrayal, and counselling towards R in these cases is probably not the best advise, even though it may go against MB principles. I think in these cases, its best to advise the BH to protect his children and assets from the effects of the A and move on to a hopefully better future.

6. Therefore, I get that same feeling of "community service", as you describe, when I can either be a "cheerleader" for the strong BH's or bring the "wood" to the weak BH's who haven't found their self-respect and/or enough courage to act out of their own convictions.

Not all react well to this type of encouragement, but some really "get it" and make huge strides, such as Tyk ... when he first came here he was completely lost and afraid ... today he is one of the BH's who operate and advise from positions of great strength. He is an inspiration to other BH's seeking to find their way.

Anyway, given our differences in personality types, religious beliefs, etc., I doubt you will completely understand my position and that is to be expected. Should you wish to discuss any of this further, I will be happy to further explain or clarify anything I've stated.

You offered up the "olive branch" with your apology above, and I wanted to show my respect by answering in as complete of a response as possible. I doubt that we will ever be "cyber-buddies", but hopefully this will serve to bridge the gap in our perspectives somewhat.

Actually, we agree on more than we disagree on. And I have counseled many 'Type A'ers' with regards to these principles---and while the principles virtually always fit---the timing, the methods used, the length of the plans, etc. are always tailored to their specific needs.

I agree especially with the issue of respect in a marriage---it's critical. The thing that I have seen (many times), is that WS's don't have much respect for anyone. Their spouse, family, friends, themselves. They're addicts. One of Harley's brillant insights was in treating these affairs like addictions. I'm always happy when a WS comes back to a marriage (expecially after hitting 'bottom'). The key at that point is good counseling that can navigate the marriage back to the states of respect and love. And if a BS has no self-esteeem, and no love left---you can't get to that step.

I was very blessed in my situation. I have no lack of self-esteem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Again, best wishes on your continuing recovery...

I will most probably regret getting involved here but can I say that I totally disagree with this.

I agree that long term a marriage cannot survive without respect but it is a rare WW who makes a complete turnaround in the short term and often they DO return to a marriage for less than ideal reasons but it does not mean the recovery cannot be absolute and complete by the measure espoused here.

Respect has to return bt it is not a pre-requsite or indicator of the potential for a great recovery and marriage.

Dittos. That's why Dr. Harley speaks of two-year recoveries.

LH

K,

Gotta tell you that you have shown us a lot by your apology.

The ability for us to recognize a need to adjust our thinking when we are allowed to properly reflect or it is brought to our attention and then admit it, is well IMHO a great thing.

I appreciate the lesson you have taught us. None of us hold all the answers, but those of us willing to humble yet willing to support have my deepest respect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to let you know you how much I respect your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

I agree with you, Orchid.

I appreciate the humbleness and honesty that seems to inhabit this thread. Thanks for your kind words, MR and I'm glad if I could help facilitate this 'meeting of the minds', even if it culminates in the mutual decision to agree to disagree.

INHO, this is a great example of what is needed on these forums to keep them moving in a positive direction.

BK, your thoughts are intriguing and I'd like to see a dialogue on respect and rebuilding based on the ideas you presented that may (or may not) be different from MR's.

At any rate, I do appreciate the civil tones displayed here....at least so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you,

Ace

P.S. K, I never intended to insinuate that you might be any sort of cad who might rescind your apology. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Not sure what was meant by 'my attempts to link' but I'm glad you linked this apology to the other thread. I think MR's use of the 'ignore' feature might have been the reason he might not have seen it on his own. Moot point now, however! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*******************************************************************************************

[color:"red"] EDITED to Add the following response to K's 'joke' comment from the Success Story thread:[/color]


[color:"red"] Actually, K, I am honored that you joked with me (even if I misread the pfft icon as being possibly demeaning of my linking ability or frequency). It's been said that jokes should only be attempted between friends and I count it an honor that you may have thought of me as a friend who could take a joke. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Hi Ace,

It was a joke! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<Saturn sheepishly raises her hand...>

I admit I did not respect my husband when I recommitted to my marriage after my EA. ManinMotion and Just Learning saw that in my posts and called me on it... of course I denied their accusations! But they were right. I did not respect or admire my husband; the real reason I ended my EA was because I hated my ugly secret.

We are now almost 3 years into recovery and I am beginning to find my respect for my husband again. But it is interesting: my feeling is coming back not by his demands or "macho" side. He is earning it by opening up to me, showing me his warts and all. By revealing his vulnerable side he shows me his incredible strength.

That's just my experience.

Congratulations!



Your post is nice to read! I'm very glad you did!

You guys both inhabit my world of "favorite posters", and most of the time I sit and wonder what you guys are disagreeing about!

Its really just a matter of styles and personalities IMO. I don't think you two disagree all that much on the matters of substance related to marriage builders.

Anyhow, a variety of opinions are required to find the right path for each person, you two both give good advice and good insights most of the time imo and the differences are a way to find balance, not a reason to argue.

Seems you both got it figured out anyhow, just wanted to chime in and say I'm glad to see it.

ITA with bigk's post. My ending the A had nothing to do with respect, it had to do with an awakening within myself.

Not sure if you're specifying genders BK, but if I may take the liberty to substutite WW for WH, mine returned rather quickly because he claims to have respected me for respecting myself, especially after D-Day #4 when he knew I meant business because I did NOT back down.

Ace

P.S. K, is it OK with you if we TJ this apology thread? Because we already have........ but it seems relevant to MR's reply to your apology. [color:"red"] (Also, note that I edited my reply previous to your 'joke' post above.)[/color]

Not surprisingly, Tyk seems to have come closer to understanding where I was coming from as he and I seem to have very similar personality types.

My main point, I suppose, was that IMHO MB principles are NOT a "one size fits all" approach, but should be modified to fit the particular circumstances and personalities of those involved. Also, (admittedly painting with a broad brush here) I see different dynamics in the WW/BH situation than I do in a typical WH/BW scenario, so what works for one may not work in the same fashion for the other.

It also appears Tyk did a much better job of articulating what I was attempting to say with part of his 3rd paragraph above ... "the differences are a way to find balance, not a reason to argue" ... POETRY!!!

Regarding the respect issue ... I'm sure there are many exceptions to the rule ... but for me, it would have been a deal breaker. If I thought my WW was coming back to me because of something other than because she recognized she had made a terrible mistake and wanted "US" to work, then recovery wouldn't have happened in our case. I love my W very much, and want to spend the rest of my life with her, but I have been divorced before and don't fear the prospect of starting over, as much as I would loathe myself for compromising my core values and/or self-respect.

In conclusion, we are all individuals, who married each other for a variety of reasons that may only be important to us ... and on the flip side, while there are many similarities to infidelity, those circumstances may also vary as much as why we were originally attracted to our mates.

IMHO, MB principles are a great framework for a strong marriage, but the order of their application or the emphasis used in each situation needs to vary dependent on the individual circumstances and personalities.

I hope this explanation helps unite rather than further divide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MR,

I have been saying the same thing for a very long time. I know for a fact....that the Harleys treat people as individuals and tailor their advice to meet the needs of individuals. Anyone who tells you that there's only one way of interpretting this stuff, and that one way will work best for everybody.....all of time <*whew*> is not recognizing the uniqueness of individual people and marriages. There are certainly some commonalities and regular guidelines that apply more often than others....and while we may not be (in our amateur capacity) able to see the differences.....I am sure that a good counselor does not apply the same formula in the same way for everyone. The main elements are probably present....but timing, details, finances etc. will be factored in individually.

I feel like many of you guys who said they wouldn't want their WS without first seeing their respect and remorse. I felt exactly the same way. However, I've also seen WSs who returned for all the wrong reasons....guilt, shame, fear....and who still made it to recovery.

Sometimes....you have to work with what you get. Some WSs are ready to do the real work....others are lost for another year before the affair chemicals wear off and they realize the destructiveness of their choices. One thing that seems to matter alot is whether you're separated or living together. Living together generally produces better results....but as you say....one size does NOT fit all.

Thank you Saturn. It's comments like this that help keep me going, especially when I fear that learning more about me, the REAL me, will drive you away. It helps me to learn to like myself more if you just happen to like me, too.

Have I told you lately that I love you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~ MU (until I come up with a good alternative - got any suggestions?)

I do think that if the affair ends on d-day or shortly thereafter there is a marked difference in the chance of recovery (which for a marriage I define as being in Love with each other by Dr Harley's measure - the love bank inventory)

I think that is a far greater indicator of success than the reasons the WS returns to the marriage.