Nomo,

As a 40 something male, all that I can say is that from your description, he sounds like a petulant [censored] and his needs appear to be over-the-top.

I guess a hard question to ask yourself (or for anyone else in a marriage) is--do you think he's still physically attracted to you?

Brix,

I think so too, but I am too close to the situation. I do think he is attracted to me, I am a size 6 and have worked very hard to keep off most of the weight I lost since the infidelity diet.

I just feel that no matter what I do, it will never be enough. We will be married 25 years this month, and I think I am done with his tantrums. Of course, from his perspective, I lured him back into the marriage with the promise of great sex which I failed to deliver once he gave up his OW. Is that what most men would think?.........

I wish I knew how to get past this area, we are so compatible in other ways.

NOMO

There is a definite disparity between the perceived 'value' of ENs.

I believe, as Harley believes, that there are certain perceived VALUES placed upon ENs by each person in a marriage. Wives tend to place a very high 'cost' for sex (in general) almost treating it as the top rung treat. They tend to place a low 'value/cost' upon the husband's financial input etc. While Men tend to have the complete OPPOSITE view. Men see their (typical) financial input as INVALUABLE and the 'cost' of 30 minutes of sex as paltry in comparison.

We see it in our Love Banks. Men overestimate the 'worth' of certain deposits and women overestimate the 'cost' of other actions. And vice versa.

Typically, I believe women tend to overestimate their perceived cost for their husband's SF. They think that until the husband has 'really earned' it and gotten the wife to a point of 'feeling like it' they have no need to join in with the degree of SF that their husbands desire. And more so, most women cannot fathom the husband EVER earning the price for FULL SEXUAL FULFILLMENT.

Men tend to overestimate their input into their marriage and the ENs of their wives. This is interpreted, by most women, as EXPECTATION, rather than the husband's perception of already having 'met the requirements'.

Personally, I believe that women are nuts... please let me explain. (I say this in a joking matter, please I don't mean it offensively. I merely mean that the differences in men's and women's thinking is so different, that the only way a man can understand it is to think that there is no possible way to understand it.)

Women will get up at 5am, take a 30 minute shower, scrub feet, tweeze eyebrows, spend an hour on hair and coordinating wardrobe, drive for an hour to get to work. All for $8,$10,$12 an hour. They will bring home work, suck up to the boss, eat yogurt, etc etc etc. But then they balk at taking 20 minutes, to walk up to their husband, give him a seductive kiss, grab his butt and pull him upstairs.

It boggles my mind that women will work so hard for so little, and yet refuse to work so little (from most men's perspective) for such HUGE GAIN. Truthfully, and I will ask all the male posters here. HOW MUCH do you think your feelings about your wife would improve if she gave you complete sexual satisfaction? Was initiating, sometimes a bit wild, sometimes alot loving, etc?

This ONE EN and the power it has is overlooked by women. And they appear to have all agreed that their view is right. If I knew how to spend 30 Minutes a day on my wife to put those kinds of deposits in her Love Bank, I would be doing it for an hour each day.

Women overlook their power and ease at which they can change their marriage in my opinion. It is sad really.

Ladies, if there is a correlary for men, please let us know.

This struck an interesting chord with me. My wife was definately taught that sex was bad by her parents, because all of her older siblings were wild, so her parents came down on her.

When we were first married, we didn't have a lot of sex. I wanted to, but she was tired a lot, stressed from a poor work environment, etc. We were young, had good paying jobs, were married, happy and living together, I thought we should be having the most sex of our lives!

So 10 years later, when I learned she had a one night stand with another guy while we were engaged, a year before we were married, it is just so hard to understand WHY. Sex was bad to her, and sex with someone you weren't dating???

We moved in together only a few weeks after this happened and our sex life wasn't too great (it is now, I can't complain).... so I have to wonder if she wasn't really into it with me, why would she be with someone else? She blames job stress at the time (her boss was REALLY *&^%ty to her), but when having a ONS I would think the stress of CHEATING ON HER FIANCE might have kept her from getting in the mood too. But what do you do..... What made it exciting enough for her to go through with it? The eternal question I will be asking myself..... Maybe it was the fact that they were drinking. I should have gotten her drunk a little more often, lol.

Isn't it generally true that women go into As for the emotional attention, while men go for the SF? Not all, but as a general rule? Men aren't getting 'enough', so they look for more? Women are assuming they're being taken advantage of on the home front and romance, so they need to be admired by a stranger for something more than keeping the family together?

Basically, each side thinks he's/she's doing enough of what the other one needs but is woefully underestimating what the other one gets in proportion to what he/she wants? Only both of them are wanting different things.

I'm sure my H would love a dynamo in the bedroom every night, but I'm pretty darn satisfied that I'm 'giving' him 2 to 3 nights a week at moderate intensity; in his mind it's never enough, in my mind he should be glad after 30 years it's this good.

And while I'm thinking, every single day, that I'm pretty darn perturbed he's not meeting any DS need for me, as I watch him come in, sit on the couch, turn on the tv, and open his computer to work (which his boss told him not to do), he walks around thinking he's picked on; his most common phrase in our house: "I do all the work around here." He simply has no clue that he isn't doing much of anything.

Both sides are wont to carry around expectations/disappointments because we're usually looking for different things.

Nomo....

The mention of your H's continual use of porn, not to mention two affairs, leads me to believe he MAY have a sexual addiction. You may want to check out RecoveryNation.com. They do a fantastic job of dealing with this issue. You'll be happy to know that it really has nothing to do with sex, or YOU, but has everything to do with his "coping with life" abilities.

I hope you check it out. There is a forum there for the addict and one for the partners and all the lessons are free.

Would you be happy if he ignored your need to talk, or finances, or whatever your ENs are all but twice a week? You should be lucky he still comes home everynight after 30 years?

When I was getting divorced, I realized it wasn't what I thought was right and wrong. It was what SHE thought was right and wrong. Now there has to be give and take, but the simple fact is that as soon as you can have the thought that 'he/she should be happy with what I give them'. Remember, there might be someone out there who is willing to give them that little bit more which fills their LB/EN more than you.

What I am saying is that it isn't what YOU think is enough, it is what HE/SHE thinks is enough. SF, affection, Recreation, Attractiveness, etc, etc, etc.

THIS IS NOT TO EXCUSE HIS INACTION, IT IS MERELY TO POINT OUT THE FALLACY WHICH PERVADES MODERN MARRIAGE.

Cat,

Frequency certainly is an issue of contention in many marriages but the root problem I think is that too many couples have become alienated from one another. They have removed intimacy from their sex lives and replaced it w/ mechanized action. For the man sex becomes a repetitive ritual in which his expects his wife to fulfill his needs--and for various reasons (which would take too long to explain here), he objectifies her--turning her into his personal orgasm machine. Consequently, the wife rightfully resents that and the result is the total annihilation of marital intimacy. That dynamic to a certain extent is prevalent in many marriages. Why is it that so many couples over time lose the ability to kiss passionately? How is intimacy sustainable when the couple can't even pleasurably participate in such a simple act? When the disconnect gets that bad intimacy is in tatters.

The top two problems according to the info I've read in marriage are money and sex.

Marital sexual issues are a major factor in marital discord and it isn't just husbands being rejected, there are women who are also being rejected sexually.

Reading the EN forum, you'll see that as one of the issues mentioned in a high percentage of the posts from men is lack of sexual relations with their wife. Quick reading at iVilliages Clashing Libidos forums, Weiner-Davis' Sex Starved Marriage book and forum, Langley's Women's Infidelity book and forum, here on Marriage Builders will show that sexual issues aren't just a problem with older couples, it is impacting young couples as well.

Dr. Harley has said, "Generally for men, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship and attractive spouse are the top three. For women generally affection, conversation, honesty and openness are the top three for them."

IMO, part of the problem is that some wives aren't taking responsibility for their own sexuality. Instead they are depending solely on their husband to "get them in the mood" and if he doesn't - well it's often tough noogies to him and some wives are seeing that as "his problem" as opposed to addressing it as "our problem."

LOL, my H hasn't paid attention to my ENs in at least 20 years. We are only married because I'm too weak to leave and because I'm too weak to stand up for what I want out of our M. The few times he's been aware I'm not happy he ignores whatever I say and defends himself to make sure no one thinks he is at fault. He never cleans, he never fixes, he never talks (about anything except himself), he never lets me choose tv shows or trips or weekends or events or chores, and he interrupts me if I start talking. If I ask him to help go through papers, he suddenly remembers he has to go out and dig a ditch. If I say I'd like to clean out the 3-car garage we can't get even one car in, he says that he has to go in to work. If I say we need to book the trip or we're going to lose our time share points, he yells "I can't deal with that right now" and opens his computer. If I ask him to throw away his candy wrapper, he looks at me and walks away, leaving it on the counter.

I shop, I clean, I launder, I garden, I fix what I can and the rest falls apart, I cook, I pay bills, I make his appointments, I handle all events. I also put on lingerie for him, buy toys, make time even though all I want to do is sleep, I surprise him with little rendezvouses, I send the D17 away. I spend every day making sure nothing is going to go wrong when he gets home, so in his mind, he's got a great life. Even after I've thrown away all my possessions and tried to off myself, he conveniently forgets about it 2 days later and carries on like nothing is wrong, and once again has a great life because, once again, I'm meeting his ENs and ignoring mine. (And before you say it, I'm well aware these are my problems, not his. That's why I'm here to learn.)

Sorry for ranting and threadjacking, but I should be lucky?

Hi Ark: Here is my response:


Well I think I see on here all the time where women put a key logger on to catch their dude doing this. I don't recall ever hearing that doing that was bizarre but maybe I just missed it.

He was unhappy with the SF and she would rather use the toy and porn than be with her husband. Now if this is not acceptable behavior for men then it should not be acceptable for women.

She uses methods that make that the only way to find out what she is doing. The wife in this case was lying about what she was doing so gosh I don't know what else he was suppose to do to find out the truth.

Can you point me to a post where the women get on women for checking up on their husbands for porn. Do they tell them that it is a communication issue and their husbands don't trust them that is why they do it.

I am not saying those posts are not out there it just may be that I over looked them and if I did I am sorry.

I guess maybe a female using a key logger to find out if their husband is using porn should maybe be considered bizarre?


I don't disagree with you on that. But when a women comes on here talking about Porn I just don't see where she is told that her husband does not trust her and she is wrong for trying to find out the truth. It is wrong for her to try to find out if he is using porn. That is the point of my post.

Some of those posters are very anti-porn ( until it is a man posting for help ) then their advice changes. I guess I thought that if it is ok for a woman to snoop on a man about porn it should be ok for a man to snoop on a woman.

I think Starfish could see this very clearly.

Again, I could be wrong just my humble opinion.

Gee...and how hard is it for a man to take 5 minutes out of his "busy" schedule to hit a grocery store to pick up flowers? Or simply say "Gee, the house looks great." or "You are doing a great job with OUR kids."

You see, from my perspective, men get up when their alarm goes off (after allowing their wife to deal with any babies/children that may have had a problem overnight because he "had to go to work in the morning", take a shower uninterupted by screaming kids since "mom will handle it", goes to work where they get kudos/recognition for "working for his family", comes home and expects his home clean, dinner cooked, laundry washed, children's homework accomplished, taxi duty performed, etc. while sitting in front of the TV or computer to "unwind from his busy day",goes out and does his stuff with the guys (bowling, out to the bar, whatever recreation) and then expects the "little wife" to fill his SF needs.

Oftentimes, the "little wife" is criticized because it was not ____________ (fill in the blank - wild enough, passionate enough, etc.) or she wasn't "into it" enough. Or it is not frequent enough, she doesn't initiate, etc. (Gee, I want to do something I get criticized about.)

Not to mention, weight gain and "loosening" is pretty common after child birth...and is oftentimes pointed out to the wife as something to "work on". (When? We supposed to do "Walk Away The Pounds" at 2 in the morning???)

Maybe a little foreplay...a candlelight dinner...flowers and a romantic note...30 minutes of watching the kids a day for "just her" time...would get husbands that complete and total SF???

Oh...and on a different note...on the two scenarios given at the beginning of the thread:

Can you make a long, romantic phone call in front of other people? Can you give your wife flowers or a compliment in front of your kids?

On the other hand...

Can you give SF to your husband at work? How about in the kitchen while your kids watch cartoons in the next room?

I'm very sorry if I offend any men here on the board, as I am only speaking about situations I know about from my perspective and experience.

As a BS, I will endeavor to fill my husband's SF needs to the best of my ability so another affair is avoided. However, there is only so much a woman can do with the demands on her time, energy and emotional resourses.

Since my D17 was born, when my H or D asked what I wanted for a present, I would say 'Take a vacation; take D17 and go to the time share (45 minutes away) for the weekend, and let me stay home alone for the weekend, so I cna have the house to myself without any expectations and so I can just have 'me' time." In 17 years, they have done it once - last year, and only for half of one day, and only because D17 insisted. But it was the best present I ever got.

I would ask for the other way around...I'll go on vacation alone, so I avoid the temptation to try to "catch up on my cleaning" around the house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're right, that's what I should do. But my H wants to be with me every spare minute. The one time I did that, when I was between jobs last year and went to the time share for a weekend, he and D17 showed up 'to surprise me' the first night. Even if I just say I'm going to the mall, he stops what he's doing and says he's going with; if I try to say I want to go alone, he pouts and starts accusing me of 'gallivanting around' and being selfish. So I've conditioned myself to not do for myself so as not to have to deal with these. I'm actually going to my own counseling in a few minutes, for the first time in 4 years, so maybe I can start working on that, and become strong enough to say I want my own time. That's my goal, anyway.

Well I think I see on here all the time where women put a key logger on to catch their dude doing this. I don't recall ever hearing that doing that was bizarre but maybe I just missed it.

here's the difference I see....

he and she have bought/used the sex toys together..I got the impression...(though I did not read the whole thing...that sex toys are OK...but I guess only if shared...

and that he did not want her using sex toys alone...

Can you point me to a post where the women get on women for checking up on their husbands for porn. Do they tell them that it is a communication issue and their husbands don't trust them that is why they do it.

I don't get too involved with the porn issues....

because I have very little experience with it..and really no interest in it...
and
neither does my husband...

I probably wouldn't have fallen in love and married someone who uses porn...

my personal issue is that until the day arrives that I would be overjoyed that any of my children were in the porn business...then it's something I can not and will not support...

but I don't really care what others do....
though I do think the industry is wrought with abuse...and deserves no ones money...

so my issues with porn have little to do with the so called sexuality of it...


Again porn use is as much as a communication issue...needed to be addressed and discussed openly....through out court ship and marriage...

I have a very fullfilling intimate relationship with my husband on many many levels...
there have been very very few issues with this aspect in our 16 year marriage....
so I am not very qualified to deal with dissastisfied customers.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

my spouse and I pretty much talk about any and everything....

that's why I find drawer monitoring so bizarre...but your point about keyloggers makes sense also....

so I guess in the end I find both strange....

ARK

The commonality was on the importance of Emotional Needs being met in marriage and whether or not the EN for sexual fulfillment is treated in a different manner than are the other emotional needs.



I don't think you'll get any argument about that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You would have a hard time finding many people here who would agree that there was *any* justification for an affair.

I do all those things.


I wish I could be that callous. I fetch the baby, bring him to my wife, burp him after she feeds him, change him and put him back down. This because I know she needs sleep to do her job as a SAHM. I also take turns with her when DS4 is sick.


DS4 is pretty well trained to not bug mom or destroy the house when she's in the shower. I may have had a small hand in this but I'm not sure.


Kudos? Recognition? What are you smoking?


it had better be because I pay for maid service!


yes, only because it is important to my W that we have dinner as a family as soon as I get home.


to be fair, she is a SAHM, and that is part of the job description. I help where and when I can.


not applicable (yet).


again, part of the job description. I can't do everything.


I have a five minute grace period when I get home to use the bathroom and change clothes. After that I'm on deck to help with the kids or help get dinner on the table.


once a month, tops.


and who else should we expect to fill our SF needs?



I am grateful enough for the crumbs of SF that I do get to be profoundly appreciative - and definitely not criticize!


true, and men who do not recognize this are out of sync with reality.


Please open your copy of His Needs, Her Needs, turn to page 104, and read the chapter on 'Attractive Spouse'. Granted that many spouses could use coaching in thoughtful requests vice selfish demands.


if a man expects his W to work out and lose weight, he needs to be supportive of this endeavor. If time is a factor they need to put their heads together and work stomething out. See POJA.


Done, done, and done.


I offer her this every night. Sometimes she accepts, sometimes not. I also watch the kiddies for 3-4 hours on Saturdays so she can go to a pottery class, where all the other women tell her what a great H she has.


Shhhaaaaaaaa!

To be absolutely fair? I know darned good and well that since we have a 2-month-old in the house, once a week is as good as it's going to get for several months, and I don't expect more than that. It was only in last October that my W finally understood what a huge issue/problem the sexual neglect has been for me through our 10-year marriage, and she is resolved to work on it. I credit MB for giving me the skills to successfully communicate that to my W. My challenge now is to let go of the accumulated anger and resentment, and to give her that time.


Almost, but I know you're just relating your perspective. I know there are lots of men like me, who don't LB, meet EN's quite well, are caring, considerate, and do what they can to make their W's lives more comfortable...who are average-to-good looking, clean, and at least competent in bed...who are doing everything they're "supposed to do" and are still being neglected and unfulfilled sexually.

It kills me to see these very guys showing up in GQ2 or JFO bewildered that their wives are starting or in the middle of an affair.

Guess I'll go back to lurking and yankee-sniping now.

NOMO, does he know how you feel about the situation? Deep, down radical honesty - how you feel about it?

If the relationship has been this one-sided, and based on your description of your ongoing efforts to meet what appears to be an everchanging goal, and you're reaching the end of your ability to handle it - I would suggest looking at some alternatives before going for divorce.

Marriage Counseling.
Sex Therapist.

If you are seriously considering divorce and feel that you have done all that you are reasonably capable of doing and he is still relating to you as if you owe him something for his choice to come back to the marriage - I would encourage you to find a way to let him know how close to the edge you are. I'm not suggesting in the way of an ultimatum - more in the way of sorrow and somberness that you're not sure how much longer you can continue in this fashion without seeking help to find a solution that is acceptable to *both* of you.

What do you think?

In a lot of homes, the secret tape of the wife using sex toys would very quickly become the husband's "porno."

I don't know, but I'm guessing.

I get the point though. I've never quite understood why husbands and wives became hysterical over the presence of porn or sex toys in general. But I think the husband in question felt he was being supplanted by the toys in question (and that's probably what wives in general complain about, too).

I think you're right. There's a general consensus that if the wife is wanking, then it must be because the husband is a klutz in bed, so she deserves to. But if the husband is wanking, it's because he's an ungrateful man-ho, with unnatural desires and no self-control, and a porn addiction to boot.

MrGGW