Hi everyone...well, it's officially been 2 years since D-day. We've had some ups and downs, more down than up unfortunately. I have forgiven but I can't let go of the trust issues. I have no proof that he's been up to anything, but I'm suspicious of everything. H is still a conflict avoider and will still say anything to avoid an argument, which eventually leads to lies or lies by ommission. Anyway, I don't trust him. And I find it harder and harder to focus on the good and work on the MB concepts when deep down my instincts are screaming at me to distance myself. HOnestly, at this point I don't know if it's just my paranoia or his dishonesty. Here's a few examples-- I have found 2 websites for foreign games (innocent games, but able to chat) and immediatley figure he's still communicating with the internet woman from Finland. Ofcourse he says he wasn't on the games-- "why would I jeopordize my family" There's no one else using our computer, so it had to be him. Why flat out deny you were playing the game if you're not guilty of something?? So, I installed a key logger, which he quickly picked up on and has not typed one keystroke into our computer since he discovered it. But, he has logged a lot more time in the office lately. Maybe I'm paranoid, but given our history, I don't know. So, this week I told him I need a break. He moved down the hall to the guest room and we are like roommate. I've slept better the last week than I've slept in 2 years. Anyway....anyone been through this? Am I paranoid??

If he is lying, he is most likely hiding something of importance. YOU are not at fault for not trusting a liar.

Honesty should have been and should continue to be a condition for his remaining a part of your life.

I would bet given what you have said in this post that your H is either having an affair or working on starting one.

My question to you...why are you tolerating his lies? He is disrespecting you by continuing to lie. He is acting in ways that are not helping to bring you closer...but rather to push you away.

Forgiving him for what he has done was a mistake until such a time as he earned that forgiveness by stopping his destructive behaviors.

confusedsahmom, I'll be blunt: If 2 years after D-Day my FWW was acting like your WH, we'd probably we well on the way to D. While we've had our issues, the one thing that she HAS done is recognize that she needs to earn my trust back, and she acts accordingly. Your WH needs to step up to the plate, and it's high time for him to do so.

Does your WH follow the MB concepts? Have you told him what specific behaviour of his leads to your unhappiness?

well, there are two reasons i'm still here...and i know no one here wants to hear this, but they are our baby girls. they adore their dad and despite the fact he's a lousy husband, he's a pretty good dad. kicking him out would mean leaving them and going back to work full time and then having to SHARE them with him. i'm just not ready for that. if it weren't for them, i would have walked out the door 2 years ago. i keep convincing myself i should give it a chance, since we're going to be living together for a while anyway...but i think the sad fact is the kids aren't enough to keep him honest or keep the marriage together...

IMHO, it is NOT POSSIBLE to be a good dad while actively doing things to hurt the mother of your children. That does not even come close to a good dad.

I treat my ex better that your H treats you and I have full and sole custody. I don't have to be nice. But there is always a reason to be kind beyond basic humanity...your children. And if I treated her poorly, I could never call myself a good dad.

Just some things to think about.

Also, your not setting up some firm "must haves" is enabling his bad behavior.

confusedsahmom - What I am going to say you probably won't like, but in my humble opinion it needs to be said. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

I read through your old posts from '06 and was preparing a response to you when my computer crashed and I lost all of the quotes and responses, so all I'm going to do now is "jump to the conclusions." Call it a "Marriage Builders Nerf 2 x 4," the pending failure of your marriage is likely your responsibility now, and a "wish fulfillment" of what you "secretly wanted" back in '06.

This current post is merely a reiteration of what you said back then, so you need to really answer some questions for yourself so that you can CHOOSE a direction and STAY on whatever course you choose.

1. Do you really want to be married to your husband? Most of what you've done and the reasons for doing it indcate the answer is "No." So do you or don't you really want to be married?

2. If he "got" it back in May of '06, then he was "on board" with recovery efforts and you have been consciously or unconsciously trying to sabotage the recovery and literally "pushing him away."

3. Trust is a 2-way street, but you seem to see it as only a 1-way street. It is NOT that you "can't" trust him, it's that you "won't" trust him and all of your actions continue to reinforce to him that you WILL NOT trust him no matter what he does.

4. IF a Betrayed Spouse wants to recover their marriage, the "lions share" of the recovery efforts will rest with the Betrayed Spouse and how they "handle their feelings." The Wayward Spouse also needs to "do their part" in recovery, that's why recovery takes TWO, not one.

5. "but i think the sad fact is the kids aren't enough to keep him honest or keep the marriage together."

The children SHOULDN'T be the "reason" for his honesty or his staying in the marriage. They WILL grow up and leave one day. YOU should be the reason. So, why SHOULD he stay with you and love you and be honest and faithful with you?

So what do you REALLY want? Neither divorce nor recovery is "easy." But you DO have to choose one or the other unless you want to live in a "in limboland marriage" of convenience, not love.

i hear what you're saying, i've heard this before. it is hard to hear. some days i want the marriage to work, and other days i'm just tired. tired of looking over my shoulder and sleeping with one eye open. he has been a liar our entire mariage. i don't trust him. So i guess my question is can you push away your instincts and mistrust and learn to love someone again, despite all your misgivings?? I'm leaning towards no. i'm thinking 75% of the time the answer is no, i do not want to be married to him. at this very moment i don't have a good enough reason to justify kiscking him out and turning my kids' world upside-down.

The answer to your question is "Yes, of course you CAN." It is NOT a question of "ability," it is a question of CHOICE, of "Will," of not "having to" react instinctively but to exercise your "free will" to CHOOSE how you will respond and what you will do, sometimes "in spite of" how you are feeling.




Okay. And you have been lying to him at least for the past 2 years or so. You have NOT wanted to be married to him. You are USING him as a provider, a father, etc. but NOT because you love him and want him for your husband.

So how DOES one recover a marriage when both the husband and the wife have, perhaps still are, liars?

With truth and CHOICE that enables the necesary "hard work" to done that will result in goal of a recovered marriage and a shared mutual love for each other that is enduring for time and circumstances.

You want "one foot in the marriage and one foot out the door." How does THAT accomplish either one? Will wishful thinking or plain old "wishes" MAKE something happen, or does it actually take commitment and action?

Why SHOULD your husband "Try" when you won't let him in and you make it clear that not only don't you trust him, you choose to never trust him?

You two appear to be a "ship without a rudder." HOW do either of you expect to "get where you want the ship of marriage to go" if you won't get a rudder, put it in the water, and connect it to the steering wheel that you can then CHOOSE to hold straight or make course corrections when needed to avoid or weather the storms?

I have not talked about faith in God because I've heard none of that from you. So what will be your "navigation chart" to get you through the rough waters and into the safe harbor you'd both like to arrive at in time?

Will you use "MB concepts and principles" or will you continue to flounder around "wishing" but never "doing?"

With all due respect to FH here...there is NO reason for you to choose to trust a man that is actively lying to you. IMHO, there is also no reason to commit more of yourself to the relationship until such a time as he stops witholding the truth.


I will also restate that based on what you have said, i would not be surprised if your H is still cheating.

IMHO, it is not reasonable for you to forgive and attempt a recovery with someone that is still lying to you. Until he shows that he is willing to be truthful, there is no reason to expose yourself to further harm.

I agree that it would be foolish to trust a man who is still actively lying to you. You cannot trust a person like that.

Now, I do agree that if you don't trust him and you're only there for the kids, then you should be honest and tell him that. People choose to stay in loveless marriages all of the time for the kids sakes. Just be honest about it.

I feel the exact same way you do about my husband and it's making me fall out of love with him. "I love him, but I'm not in love with him". Sound familiar? I don't know if I want to still be married to him anymore. I don't and can't be intimate and loving with someone who can manipulate me.

I just CHOOSE to tell the truth. I don't know which path I'm going to take yet. I'm giving myself time to watch my husband's actions.

Nothing wrong with that imo.

What MEDC is saying is true. He may think that I am saying something different, but that's just a misunderstanding and perhaps a misapplication of the spectrum of trust. You CAN, and probably already DO, trust him in SOME areas. But you do not trust him in ALL areas. Or maybe another way to put it is that in some areas you do "trust" that he will behave in ways that can potentially bring you harm and anguish.

However, to perhaps frame it along the same "reasoning lines" that MEDC has offered here, let's rephrase what MEDC said a little to hopefully illustrate what I was saying.

"there is NO reason for your husband to choose to trust a woman that is actively lying to him. IMHO, there is also no reason to commit more of himself to the relationship until such a time as she stops witholding the truth."

"IMHO, it is not reasonable for you to forgive and attempt a recovery with someone that is still lying to you. Until he shows that he is willing to be truthful, there is no reason to expose yourself to further harm." It is likewise not reasonable for him to forgive those lies, take responsibility for his wrong actions, repent of them, seek your forgiveness of them, with someone that is still lying to him and insincere about wanting to actually recover the marriage. Until you show that you are willing to be truthful, there is no reason to expose himself to further manipulation and deceit.

You see, a successful marriage takes TWO. It is never "one sided." Throughout all of your posts you have always indicated that your husband was guilty of "Emotional Affairs." That he may interpret "adultery" as only Physical Sex with someone else is irrelevant to YOUR interpretation of what "adultery" is. You "expect" him to accept your definition, but you also connect to the concept of "unfaithfulness" the concept of Lying. IF it is "okay" for you to lie about your feelings and the reasons you want to remain married, WHY would it NOT also be "okay" for him to lie about something that he may not consider to BE "adultery?"

If you don't want Lying to be a part of your marriage, Lying must stop. You CANNOT make him stop lying, but you CAN make yourself stop lying and begin to address the underlying problems that Lying is merely a symptom of.

WHY do each of you want to be married to each other?
WHY did each of you date each other to begin with?
WHAT attracted each of you ot each other originally?
WHAT does "I love you" mean to each of you?

If you want to save your marriage AND be "in love" with each other, isn't it about time that you both laid down the weapons and made choices that foster marriage rather than detract from it?

I don't see her weapon. But I see his, and it's his lying.

I think I must have missed where she said she hasn't told him her feelings.

"I think I must have missed where she said she hasn't told him her feelings."

Perhaps, MEDC. I am basing my comments not just on this thread but on having gone back and read through her original series of thread back in '06.

Wow, you all gave me a lot to think about. To answer some of your questions, I am painfully honest. I have NEVER lied or tried to candy-coat how I'm feeling. I wear my heart on my sleeve and any given day, H hears how I'm feeling. At least I do say the words, but he filters what I say to him and takes from it what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. He thinks we can move on despite the fact that I don't trust him. He just wants to ignore and avoid all of the things I try to talk about.

When I approach things the way MB suggests, he only takes the positive out of the conversation, and ignores the problems, which I'm trying to get across in the most non-threatening way. He doesn't "get" that there's still a problem until he notices that we haven't been talking to eachother for a week.

I'm probably over-simplifying it, but my husband isn't capable of constructive communication. We've tried it, and he agrees and promises to try and immediately goes back to avoiding and lying.

My problem is trust. I know if I had something to hang on to, some sign that he could be honest, I could be more open to working on the marriage. I haven't had any signs. There has been no improvement in communication or honesty. I understand that I need to be more approachable, and do my part to improve things. I can't do that until I know everything, and he comes clean. (For example, I'm still not sure we're just talking about an EA- I just had no hard evidence of a PA) It's very simple really, and I've explained it to him in as many ways as I can creatively do it. It just isn't happening. And, I've decided to detach for a while, for some self-preservation. I've got other things in my life that need my attention, too, and I just can't obsess on this ALL the time. I NEED A BREAK!! Thanks for listening, all, I appreciate all of your advice.

I've been there for the last two and half years. My WW is very similar. With my WW, it does not appear to be a matter of demanding she be truthful. It does not a appear to be a "switch" she can just turn on or off. I know many people don't buy that and just recomend telling them if they don't stop lying you will leave them for good. Maybe they are right, I don't know.

However, what I observe implies that it is not always that simple. IMHO, this can be a pretty normal coping/defense mechanism that gets "over developed" in some people. Its a learned behavior that got reinforced by parents, friends, co-workers and spouses over a period of years. They learned it over years and it takes years to unlearn it. Generally it gets over developed to the point that rather than fix the problem, they will leave a relationship. They will concede that they shouldn't be that way, agree to stop doing it, but fail. Deep down they have concluded that they can not change themselves or should not change themselves.

To me, the thorny part is determining whether they really have a problem or are just lying to continue an A. I would look at your BH's other relationships. (and not just the A). Is he close to his parents/family? Does he have any long time friends that he is in regular contact with? Has he changed jobs a lot? When he doesn't want to do something for someone or go to a party, does he always suggest making up an excuse. Does he seldom say no to people, but rather lie his way out of it.

My point is, if he really is lying for the sole purpose of avoiding conflict, he will have done this with everyone. If he has, I would demand he get counseling rather than demanding he stop lying. And note, if he has done IC and nothing changed, he probably lied to the IC. I've talked to several IC and they have said it can take years for an IC to catch this, without someone tipping them off.

There are some things you can do. Notably, consistently making avoiding conflict less pleasant and making addressing conflicts more rewarding, but I wouldn't try it alone. Nothing really change with my WW until she started IC and even then it has been a very slow process.

Hope this helps.