I agree with this, my kids and myself and our well being are a much higher priority than than saving the marriage. But after those two things are taken care of then I believe diplomacy will go much further than anger in an attempt to save the marriage. I think the key thing in the definition that silent posted was "diplomacy is the employment of tact to gain strategic advantage", I'm not sure I would categorize what James was doing as that.

James: not judging or ripping you at all, we all do what we think is best at the time during a difficult situation.

I have experience, so everybody better just listen 2 what I have 2 say:


It's been misplaced. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

James, perhaps if you displayed that fire with your wife, your boy would be home. The things you have posted in this reply are so far out there, I don't even think they warrant a response. You would not have been playing keep away James...you would have had your son in his home...rather than rolling over on your back and watching him be taken from his home to go live with the other man. So....that is done...okay...I accept that. BUT, I still see you displaying the same attitude "dude."

James, I suggest if you don't like what I am posting, that you not read this thread.

I agree 100%.

edit:

I know you don't agree with his past choices, but can you at least give him the benefit of acknowledging the lessons he learned from them and the choices he's making now?

That'd be great.

-ol' 2long

Yup, kids, finances first (anyway, that's what I did), then Plan A, with the above in mind.

Also, I am not referencing any ONE poster on these boards when talking of employing diplomacy in Plan A. I am using a broad stroke to encompass all people entering the abyss that is dealing with infidelity and WS's.

EVERYONE,

Let's TRY to keep this decent, civil and RESPECTFUL!!

And stick to the TOPIC!

Thanks!!!!

Thanks for the question 2Long. I would ask that you re-read my posts as they have everything to do with the choices he is making now. I see them as being consistent with what he has done in the past. The choices he is making now and the things he has said recently are part of the reason this thread was started in the first place. To me, this has been the trend throughout his ordeal...again, I would ask that you read the first 10-15 pages of his thread...and then read the recent pages...has he improved..or is he doing the same thing. Perhaps we see it differently....and I am ok with that.

That's what I thought.

And that's okay 2.

medc,

Earlier you mentioned that you and I wouldn't see eye to eye on this issue...but really....I don't see where we're disagreeing much at all. I do think anger is a much healthier INTITIAL reaction than fear. I do think the justifiable anger that a BS exhibits after d-day shows a greater degree of self respect and is a healthier response to betrayal. I do agree with firm boundaries and self respect.

So that's where we agree. Where we have some disagreements is how useful anger is "long term" as a stategy to fight infidelity. Not only does research support the fact that long term anger is not beneficial, but Harley CLEARLY steers BSs AWAY from anger, demands, love busters etc. It's one of the hallmarks of his program.

Aside from that.....hindsight is 20/20. Jamesus may wish he made other choices now. You might have prefered to see him angry instead of enabling during some critical times....me too! I would have prefered to see him assertive though (boundaries and respect) WITHOUT anger and love busters.

You can't honestly begin a thread that is obviously about another poster and then tell that poster that if it bothers him....he shouldn't read it! Well you can....but it seems disingenous. Everyone knows....including Jamesus, that this thread was at least inspired by your criticisms of him. If there was a thread on the board about and critical of you....what would you think if you were told not to read it if it upset you?

And here's the thing....is there really anyone here who reponded perfectly to infidelity? Good grief! I didn't. You didn't. It's absolutely bone crushing. It's makes you crazy. It makes you fearful...depressed...lost....suicidal! You actually said you felt "homicidal". The important thing is not whether we did things perfectly....but whether we can survive long enough to try better strategies when something doesn't work. Long term....anger isn't the answer. Knowledge, confidence self respect, assertiveness....those are good long term strategies.

We all come to this board with our own biases. None of us are exempt from that. I've always had a less aggressive/angry approach than you have...and we each respond from our own perspective. Doesn't make me better. Doesn't make you worse. Just makes each of us who we are.

I've read all your posts....and when you came here....you were in an absolute rage. It didn't help you either. You yourself said you had an "anger problem". It persisted for quite some time too....maybe it still does. Maybe anger was the way you learned to assert your self esteem. Survival brings out different traits in people. I had a hard life....I think you did too. We learned different ways of adapting and surviving. Anger just got me bloody....so I learned different things. I wasn't as physically powerful or intimidating as you are probably. I think you're still angry, and it's confusing for you when people are not angry enough to recognize when they are being "played". But whether you still have an anger problem or not....it seems clear that you consider anger to be the way.... perhaps the right/only/best way....to exhibit self respect and strength.

How long does anger benefit a betrayed spouse? Are you willing to see that there may be other ways to express self respect long term besides anger? For instance.....isn't Plan B supposed to achieve that? Loving detachment (passive resistance) without anger?

You see the word "passive" and you ignore "resistance". Passive resistance may not be aggressive or angry....but it takes great strength and sometimes even greater respect for both self and marriage than angry demands and reactions.

One of the things that is UNIQUE....truly unique....about Dr. Harley's program is the LACK of anger....replaced by logical strategies/compassion/boundaries. It is one of the huge reasons that so many waywards are willing to embrace it (and turn back to their marriages)....because it is about healing instead of punishment. It is about prevention and respect instead of anger. He certainly DOES encourage BS to have good boundaries, to expose, to assert themselves....but NONE of it is about anger.

This is why....it's so important for folks to express differing perspectives. Anger is only <one side> of self respect....self respect is a very complex construct and it's impacted by every single thing that has happened in a person's life....not just infidelity in their marriage. You see enough abuse survivors to know how poor their self esteem is even if their spouse never cheated. So people don't react the same....and that's okay.

Great post, Star*fish.

It would be even better if it were entirely accurate.

SF...MB may be a plan that does not include anger...BUT, since we are talking about something a lot more important that marriage when it comes to Jame's situation...I would say that your take really doesn't apply here. His child was snatched from his home and Jame's enabled that bad behavior for months...and his child has been hurt as a result of his actions.

In addition, I am not talking about hindsight. Read my posts again. I spoke to Jame's on the phone and spent a lot of time in his thread early on...I saw what his weakness was doing to him allowing his wife to get away with. I see the same thing from him today. That's my opinion and I feel it is based on fact.

As far as my anger....it served me very well...I have my son..he is safe and ten feet from me...not living with a mother that would do him harm.

As far as my suggesting that Jame's not read the thread, that was in response to a post that he later edited.

Give me the link to the old posts of mine you are referencing. I can't seem to get to them.

Lastly, I will post in manner that is consistent with the terms of service. Any posts that are outside of that it is the mods responsibility to bring that to my attention.

Good stuff, SF...

It is also about love.

MEDC, I've read your posts with a combination of admiration and frustration since I've been here. This thread finally nudged me to go back and look at your own humble beginnings here on MB back in the fall of '05 to try and understand where you're coming from.

Your story was painful.

Like so many of us BSs, you were lost and confused.

I saw the hurt, the pain, the love...but what stood out most, however, was the anger.

You did use it to your advantage where custody was concerned...good on you.

I am in NO position to judge how it has left you in relation to having a loving relationship with another woman.

I am a military man. I have come across more than my fair share of situations in my life that could be handled in a "black and white" way. In a "win or lose" way. I'm sure that in your former line of work you have too.

It's hard not to extend those lessons into your personal life.

I have over the years, and it clearly didn't work out so well for me.

One of the hardest things I've had to do over the last couple of years was come to terms with my own self, my own way of looking at the world, my family, my WW.

I came to realize that my tendency to be so black and white, right or wrong about everything was one of the primary reasons I "drove" WW from me.

Standard caveat--driving your spouse away is one thing, their choice to have an A is something entirely different.

None of my fine military training (or my upbringing as a child of divorce) prepared me to be a good H...certainly not in the MB way.

I've read all of the articles, books and many, many posts here and would have to agree that anger, in and of itself, is damaging, unproductive, and largely toxic.

Some of the worst decisions I've made since DDay have been a result of indignant, self-righteous anger...not MB principles.

The smartest thing I've done is focus on ME and my children and not on A, OM, etc., as doing so works me into a RAGE...a rage that does NOT result in anything other than eventual depression and obsession...and then more anger.

That is not how I want to go through life.

Perhaps you speak of a different anger.

I will never lose my children...not ever...and it is love that will ensure that it is so.

This is my unique experience.

...and it's also my .02

L2F

Agree 100%.

OBTW, to find your old posts, I typed in your username and then the "older than" option...making sure to choose the blank field in the "date range" drop down menu.

Mopey:
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

Make sense?

Hang in there - and yeah, like Tabby said, some of us are not recovered but we can sure give you cautionary tales about what NOT to do and why!
Mulan

Mulan,

I just want to tell you that your description of boundaries and how to enforce them is the best I've ever read. In fact, your whole post is EXCELLENT.

Mulan,

I agree. That was a great post. It's funny too, because it has only been this last week since posting on both of the anger threads that I have come to the same conclusion as what is in your post.

My H lied to me for way too long. He slacked in my recovery needs way too long. I let it happen, way too long. He left to go take care of himself during my biggest time of need. He's not who I thought he was and it has all made me furious. Of course, I never really knew him, but I didn't expect this.

However, he is working to become a better man, someone I could respect, except when it comes to my recovery needs. He has done some stuff, but I still have so much anger and resentment towards him that I can't even talk to him on the phone or in person without feeling angry. I don't want the timeline of the affairs that he finally did a week or so ago because I don't want to have to deal with the triggers on my own. I feel at a complete standstill where we are concerned.

I did just send him a list of what I need to do to recover for myself, and recover our marriage. I also sent him a revised list of what I need him to do to help me heal. I'm not sure how all of that will play out, on his part. All I know is that each and everyday that goes by, with him gone and ignoring my needs, that I lose more and more love for him. He seems to want to work on recovery a little more in the last week, but I just don't know, I need him to move mountains at this point.

I am getting more use to being on my own now. The pain is still there of course, but each day gets a little easier.

I would really like our marriage to work, even still, but he'd have to fight for me at this point. I don't know if he wants the marriage enough to bend over backwards to make this right. There's only so much forgiving I can do without his help. I know I made mistakes with my anger, and I wish he would have just let me vent over the d-days and lies. Instead, he was defensive, foggy, and I was never able to release my anger. His defensiveness and lack of recovery efforts just made me even more angry. Not to mention the freakin lies.

I know I've had a lot of anger. And justified anger in my opinion, but healing never came and it did turn into rage sometimes. I was literally frauded into marrying him. He stretched my d-days out for a year, after 14 yrs of lying, and then being lied to countless times in between the d-days, and then some. And he was so full of himself through most of it. He has shown remorse, but I don't know how you could possibly be remorseful and lie at the same time. I never know what he's thinking or his motivations behind anything.

Just this past week he said he wasn't sure what he wanted to do, as far as we were concerned. He's not committed to the marriage "unless I change". At that point, I pretty much just shut down. I'd had enough. If he wants "to do whatever it takes, as long as it takes" and show consisentcy over time, I could probably give my heart back to him, and lose the anger. But even then, it will take some time.

But for now, I am shut off from him with the exception of a few e-mail exchanges which have very little in them other than some transparency. He has asked to see me numerous times but I still resent him so much that I don't even want to do "fun" stuff with him. He is willing to just get together and talk at this point, but I don't trust the anger I still feel for him.

I guess in your equation of anger + fear = rage, that I have lost some of the fear. I no longer fear ever being without him again. It's been a little over a month since he's been gone and I can finally go to sleep without begging God to stop the hurt so I can. I'm not crying everyday like I did the first 2 weeks he was gone.
I'm not even that scared of losing my home anymore. It's too much for me to keep up on my own anyway.

It's so sad even typing this. During our "honeymoon phase" after finding MB, I had such high hopes.....then the year of constant lying and anger put that to a stop quick.

Heck, if he reads this post it may tick him off to the point where he decides to give up all together. It doesn't take much these days.

Anyway, I realize that I can't be with him until he starts caring for me like I need him to, because it'll just continue to hurt me and make me angry after all the damage that's been done. So the only thing I can do is continue to work on myself and whatever happens, happens. I cannot make him love me or care for me, but I can take myself out of the situation.

Thank you so much for the post Mulan.

Mopey,

Wow, I could have written that thread myself. Exact same sitch for me. Almost a whole year of lying etc. and I finally got angry too. Only difference for me is that my WH decided to Plan B me as I decided to Plan B him. He has made it clear that he wants nothing to do with me.

My anger was the excuse that he needed to take off....

So MEDC...how do you classify a WS gaining a backbone after experiencing, and witnessing towards others, 15 years of abusive anger and deciding not to be subjected to it anymore?

There comes a point where justifications for anger turn into excuses to continue destructive behavior in order to gain power over another.

Mulan - Thanks for the good description of boundaries.

I have been abusive to our relationship through infidelity, lies, critisizing and withdrawal. All of which have been or are being eliminated through my own boundaries, values, and counseling. The best thing I feel to do, is remove these from my life.