I'm not at all concerned with WS. IMHO, they are not deserving of consideration. So, how do I classify them...as I classify all WS...no good.

Hmmm....makes me wonder if I am still a WS.

I am assuming you're refering to a WS that's out and about screwing around.

That's not been me for several years. I think I lost my "F" when reacting to the thought of taking a polygraph.

At this point, I believe it's not been reassigned due to perceptions regarding my remorsefulness and thoughtless answers about past events (aka "lies").

Well...you said a WS. So, that is what I answered. But to me, one does not need to be out screwing around to be wayward. Telling a BS any lies continues with the WS label. Not doing the things needed for recovery also continue the label in my eyes.

I don't mean to offend you and really don't know your story..or if you are a WS or FWS...but in my eyes a WS is not worthy of the air they breathe.

No offense taken. I grasp your perception. Perhaps one day my wife and I will do the MB plan. I've certainly made plenty of poor choices during recovery.

Post deleted by me. It wasn't helpful.

Post deleted by me. It wasn't helpful.

Hm... Explains a good bit of the anger, then.

This is a forum for survivors of infidelity. Now, infidelity must involve at least 3 people for it 2 be an A, right? Like a BS, WS, and OP, right? more than 3 people if the OP is married or in a committed relationship themselves.

I submit that this board is for people trying 2 recover from infidelity, at least a third of which are WSs.

Labeling such folk as worthless doesn't serve the purpose of this board, or even the BSs who comprise the majority of members of this forum and love their WSs and would like 2 see them encouraged 2 end their As.

I submit that such a viewpoint would be much better served elsewhere.

-ol' 2long

Chai,





Didn't that make you angry?.....lol.....

And honey, if your sitch was anything like mine, I truly do feel for you and understand. If you lived in my town, we could share til the cows came home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

{{{{Chai}}}}}

You know what Mulan & Chai,

I am starting to not feel the rage anymore because I realize I'm feeler stronger about my boundaries now.

Even Windstopped's absence doesn't make me that angry anymore. I feel more.....well I'm not sure....lol....maybe safer? Safer because I am not allowing hurtful actions or inactions touch me. And if it does, I shut down the communication.

And my castle walls go up.

Hey Mulan & Pep.....if my castle walls go up, can I be a princess just for a day?

How one of my boundaries helped me with my anger today.....

My H sent me a very condescending e-mail, in a passive-aggressive way that he disguised as "transparency".
Trust me, it WAS executed with the intent to hurt.

My reply to him was "that is something a condescending a-hole would write". ( I still have trouble with respecting him when it comes to him abusing me, even if the shoe fits.....)

Immediately afterwards, I sent another e-mail asking for a do over and appropriately expressed how his e-mail hurt me.

After several digs at me for the whole a-hole thing, I finally told him I wouldn't discuss it anymore until he apologized for being so hurtful to me in the first place.

He half heartedly apologized and demanded one from me as well. Basically, what I told him was that I honestly felt it was an a-holish thing to do, and if the shoe fits....

I also told him a ho is a ho
a liar is a liar
an abuser is an abuser
an a-hole is an a-hole

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (should I be 2x4'd for that?)

Back to H....

It was passive-agressive abuse. I feel he did it because he was ANGRY with me.

I probably shouldn't have indirectly referred to him as an a-hole......but I was ready to shut down the hurtful communication and put my wall up. That made me feel safer.

Now, if I can just get to the point of not talking disprectfully, indirectly, to someone who has lost a lot of my respect while they're abusing me BEFORE I SHUT DOWN, I'll have made HUGE strides.

O.k., I e-mailed H back and said I was sorry for telling him what he did to me was assholish.

MEDC - before I get to posting about what motivated me to read through your entire thread and decide to post anything I wanted to ask you question for you to consider regarding your passion for Jamesus' situation, because it obviously continues to "bother" you.

Since you have made your opinions and observations crystal clear to him, many times, isn't it about time you simply chose to stop commenting about his situation completely?

He understands your position. You have offered up your opinions and he has agreed with some of them and disagreed with some of them. He is doing things the way he chooses to them and is doing what he is doing now for the same reason we all choose actions or "plans". None of us can change or "undo" the past. All we can do is try to learn from the past and make changes that may alter the future. This is not about "making" someone do things the way "we" would do them. It is simply about giving advice, and the reasons why we think that advice might be good or have application for their given situation, but it is up to each individual to chart their own course. The GOAL is a recovered marriage. A secondary goal is to help those who wind up divorced to recover individually from the consequences of adultery and/or their own actions that may have been detrimental to a good loving marriage. The path to that goal, a recovered marriage or a recovered self following a divorce, has "many roads that lead to Rome." Perhaps it would be time to consider that "beating a horse" is not the same thing as leading a horse. Nor is leading a horse to water the same thing as making a horse drink your water when it might choose the water from someone else, or to not drink at all.

mopey - the "issue" is not to be or not be angry. All emotions, including anger, have been given to us by God. But God has also given us, unlike the animals, the ability to CHOOSE, to exercise our "free will" in how we respond to our emotions and the actions we allow or don't allow ourselves to do in response to those feelings.

The way the Scripture puts it is "be angry, but in your anger do not also sin."

The question of response to that anger has a LOT to with what it is we really are angry about, and why it angers us.

The answer, from my perspective, is that we SHOULD get angry about sin against God. God gets angry about sin against Himself too.

But the "perspective" we tend to see most often and wind up dealing with most often is that the sin (offense) is against "ME" first, foremost, and in many cases sin against God doesn't even "enter our minds" for consideration.

When Jesus cleared the temple, it was because of sin against God, not sin against Jesus the Man.

When Jesus confronted the Pharisees, it was because of sin against God, not sin against Jesus the Man.

When Jesus washed Judas' feet, along with all of the apostles, He KNEW that in mere moments Judas would betray Him and be the the "catalyst" of His suffering, pain, and death. Why would He wash Judas' feet rather than lash out in "justifiable anger" over what Judas was about to do and the events that Judas would set in motion that WOULD have a direct and terrible impact on HIS life?

Why does the Scripture admonish us all to "not let the sun go down while you are stil angry?"

Where does repentance and forgiveness and restoration of relationships fit in with "justifiable anger, wrath, and even rage" against sin?

God bless.

Boundaries - are set by the individual and the "consequences," the actions that the individual chooses to "impose" for a violation of those boundaries, are set by the individual.

One person can have a boundary of "If you cheat on me I will leave and divorce you immediately."

Another person can have a boundary of "If you cheat on me, I will consider staying with you in marriage if the adultery ends and we work at necessary changes in our marriage to achieve a good and loving marriage based in fidelity "from this day forward."

One person can say "If there is ANY contact during recovery, I am 'out of here!' and will procede directly to divorce.

Another person can say "If there is ANY contact during recovery, I will confront the fact of contact, restate that "contact" is non-negotiable, and depending upon your response I will either "start again" or will leave the marriage.

Boundaries and consequences are the sole right of the individual, regardless of anyone else's opinion in the matter.

I would further submit that those boundaries and our responses to a violation of those boundaries have a LOT to do with our own position with God and our "husband" Jesus Christ.

Forever Hers,

I am taking in what you are saying, but unless you've walked a mile in my shoes, you have no idea how confused and angry I have been. It is my belief that God did give us the emotion of anger for a reason. I had poor boundaries and have had to learn them.

I will always feel anger when someone is abusing me. My husband has abused me in probably more ways that I've ever mentioned on this board.

You have mentioned to me MANY times about forgiveness. I give forgiveness when I can. At least I have taken myself out of the abuse, so I'll have nothing else piling up to forgive.






And FH....if you EVER refer, indirectly or otherwise, to me again in this manner, I will never want to speak to you again.

I honestly feel that was a passive-agressive cut on your part because you have always gotten on to me for not forgiving my continually abusive husband.

In fact, please stop posting to me period.

Thank you.

MEDC - maybe it would be helpful to consider that we are all created in the image of God and are, therefore, "worthy" of consideration. That is not the same thing as "agreeing with" sinful behavior, but it IS consistent with "hate the sin but love the sinner."

For the record, we are ALL "no good" because of sin. God still considers us worthy of consideration, so much so that God the Son died for us to provide a "way back" to God. It is up to each of us to choose to accept or reject and actually receive forgiveness and restoration, but our response does not change God's love for each of us. On the one hand there are children of God who have responded and are "welcomed back into the family, forgiven and restored." On the other hand, there are children who do not repent and are sent to the electric chair as a consequence of their actions and choices. But God loves them nonetheless. His "consideration" of them endures until death, at which point He can no longer "consider them" worthy of consideration, they are blotted out of the Book of Life and entered into the book of eternal separation (death). We have until the time of our death to be "worthy of consideration."

And you know what else FH, I have admitted to making mistakes with my anger after I've been abused. I'M HUMAN.

I've also been successful at not being angry when I was hurting.

I didn't come with a book on how to react to a serial cheating, lying, selfish, entire time I've known him husband.

I don't need you to tell me AGAIN that expressing my anger is hurting my husband and our marriage.

And as I have also repeatedly said, abuse IS marital unfaithfulness and grounds for divorce, for "removing yourself" from repeated abuse.

You have a lot of anger, that is evident, and it is spilling over into your responses, such as this one you made to me.




Speak or don't speak, that is your choice. But KNOW this, mopey, I was NOT speaking TO you or saying that you were some sort of "animal." I was speaking a FACT that God HAS given us our emotions, including anger, AND the ability to reason and to choose (free will), which He did NOT give to the animals. That's because HUMANS, not animals, are created in the image of God.




Label it any way you feel like doing. How you feel about something, however, does NOT change FACTS.

Let me restate my "advice," since you have obviously twisted it so that you "hear" differently, perhaps even to "justify" in your mind what your choices are of how to respond to things.

There can be NO forgiveness without repentance. Period.

THAT is my position regarding forgiveness. Take it or leave it as you see fit. My purpose in posting was NOT to get sucked into an argument of your making, therefore:



I shall not post to you any longer. Good luck, as always, with finding your way through the mess you are dealing with.

Bull. You wrote my name on the post. Your "advice" was directed directly to me.

And I don't care what your "facts" are you could have left out the animal part like you did here.




And this.....



And THIS was your passive-aggressive fact that you could have left out.

Why not just compare me to an apple? They weren't made in the image of god either.

So why refer to animals?

And you know what else? I sense anger in YOUR post too....




And this....






Thank you.

You're welcome. I am not responsible for your perceptions, you are. That, too, is a fact.

Shalom.