I'm sure it is.

I don't think waiting is that bad a thing. What I'm trying to help you do is set some boundaries around the level of respect and for you two to protect each other.

I'm completely speaking for myself here but I will not be manipulated by threats of suicide. That is not a game. If she's sincere, then do you really need to be there if she says you're the reason she feels that way?

If she's not sincere, do you really need to be there? Again, I think it's a bluff (and high-order abuse), but I sure as heck wouldn't stand for it. I would say that I need to leave for a breather if I was causing such feelings. My guess is that she would either recant or let you go.

If she lets you go, it WILL most likely be to continue the affair. I know this is not preferred, but neither is taking the blame for someone else's ill feelings.

If she is showing that it was bluff and is not continuing the threats, then do stay.

BTW, I have a different stance on exposure. Definitely expose to OM wife. Be careful with exposing to her family. There is no bigger love buster than recruiting her family to judge her, especially if they were abusive to her in her childhood. Notice I didn't say not to--just show discretion with it.

YIM

Are you sure? Enthusiastic agreement or reluctant agreement.


Are you sure? Why is she staying at her job?

She approached me and suggested that she felt it was time for me to go. She said God had put it on her heart for the past couple of weeks. From everything I could see, it was enthusiastic. I would have never gone to school if she hadn't been 100% on-board. Way too risky on the marriage. Although, as it turns out...


I can see all her text messages. They have stopped, and she has an accountability partner at work that ensures he's not in there for anything other than business. Apparently he has been avoiding her like the plague because she told him it was over (text messages seem to confirm this).

Yes, her mentioning suicide is a mind-job. I agree that it is more than likely a bluff. However, I will never call a bluff with that word ever again as I had a friend in the past that actually ended up seriously attempting when I thought it was a bluff.

I do like the advice about pacing myself. I can feel the sanity slip away slowly. About 3 times a day a wave of grief comes over me and I sob very very hard for about 10 seconds. Too much more of this and I think I'm gonna get some anti-depressants.

So far, I have been able to handle her insane rantings. I am just trying to get her through this week, then the counselor appointments start. Once the counselor has a good idea of what's going on, I'm sure she will be asked to leave her job by the counselor. At that point if she refuses, I think it would be time to implement Plan B.

Anyhow, she is now gone for the evening. I think I'm gonna spend a while with God now. One thing is for certain, at times like this, God becomes oh so very real.

Hey, burnout. This sounds like good news.

I hope you know that I'm not saying it certainly is her bluffing. Also, I most certainly do not advocate leaving someone alone in that condition (as I've been there, myself).

However, if she isn't bluffing and she says that you're the cause, she needs time away from you. I only have your words to go by, here. That's all I was getting at--the opposite of treating it as a bluff.

However, if she's not mentioning it anymore, then there is no point in worrying about it as evidence that she's suicidal. Yet, it probably does need to be worked out, with you setting down a boundary to say, "If you were serious about being suicidal, I am sorry. I don't ever want you to feel that way again. However, if you were trying to punish me with it, I cannot take that, anymore, and I won't. Next time, I will call your family to come stay with you and I will leave for a day or two." Or something like that.

This goes for anything manipulative that she says. It is no LB to say, "Please do not speak to me that way. If you continue, I will need to step out for 30 minutes or so."

If you are concerned with leaving I believe you are viewing this correctly. Feels like there is more to this from her side of things. Listen to yourself.

Why are you contemplating Plan B at this time?

It seems early to me. Typically, Plan B is for you to get to a better place and to insure your love for your WW after you have done a good Plan A. If she has taken the steps you state it would seem you should continue in Plan A. Would like to understand your thoughts.

If she has not had contact she is in withdrawal. People in affairs are like addicts. After a couple of weeks of no contact the effects of withdrawal drop significantly. Every time contact occurs withdrawal timeline starts over.

YIM has a very good point with caring for her. If she is suicidal that has to be the worst feeling ever for a person. If it is a bluff, you will find out in due time and you will be in a position of strength.

Where did she go for the evening?

Hey, burnout. Please read this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Focus here:


I hope you won't need to use this information, but if you do, please don't be shy about it.

YIM

Hi All,

Again, thanks for the postings. They're very helpful. I guess maybe I haven't made this situation totally clear. So let's try again.

We've been married 4 years no kids. Our marriage in general has been okay. We've had a couple of rough spots, but we seem to get through it fine.

About a year after we were married, I decided I wanted to pursue a different career. We didn't see eye to eye, and never seemed to be able to really agree. I knew that making big changes like that in life without 100% spouse's support is not smart, so I never really pursued the change. I eventually resigned myself to never actually getting to change.

However, out of the the blue one day, she came to me. She said that she felt God wanted her to support me in this career. And she pledged her full support behind it, on two conditions. That I would keep the business I had going, and that she stay home. It was NOT my desire that she stay, however I agreed.

Before we left, we went on a holiday, to spend some good quality time together. We enjoyed ourselves immensely. Two nights before I left, I took her out for dinner and asked straight, "Are you happy with this marriage? Can we do this without killing our marriage?" She looked at me straight in the eye and told me that she had never been happier or felt more loved.

So I went. About three weeks in, she started a new job. I noticed a distant tone start right around that time. I asked her about it, and she said that it was just because she was tired from work.

She had promised to visit me as often as possible, but once she started that job, she stopped visiting me, and stopped calling. 90% of the time I was the one calling her. I had a very uneasy feeling about all this, so I stepped up my pace at school to try to get this done as soon as possible. I also took trips home myself every 3 weeks (it's the best I could do), in an attempt to stem off this "distant" feeling I had. When I went home, things seemed okay for the most part. She seemed responsive and affectionate, and even though I expected zero sex (I had read that being away and then coming back and expecting sex comes across as unloving), she insisted that she wanted to be close physically (I was not about to argue).

The distance kept getting worse and worse. I finished the schooling and one night called her. I could tell that things weren't right. Sometime along the way, she had stopped telling me she loved me on the phone. I never asked her about it because I didn't want to love bust while I was away. I couldn't take it anymore and asked if she loved me. She said that she did. I asked her if she felt romantically in love with me. I'll never forget that silence.

I hopped on the next plane home, panicked because my fears were being realized. I got home, and it was ICE. She didn't want to cuddle, hug, kiss, talk...nothing. I couldn't figure out what was going on. I then decided that it must just be a natural distant feeling that came with being gone for as long as I had. I threw myself headlong into doing everything I could for her. Gifts, flowers, cleaning house, making meals, working with the finances, listening to every word she said, attempting to spend any quality time with her possible, non-sexual affection, you name it.

About 4 days after getting home, I got a cell phone bill. I saw there was a ridiculous number of text messages. I called the phone company, and found that there was one number in particular that seemed to be a favorite. I called the number and heard a man's voice. Adrenaline immediately shot through my veins. I knew that now there was no playing games. I was familiar with this site to an extent, and knew that gentle but firm confrontation was in order.

I went to her work and gently asked if she would come for a drive with me. She must've known what was about to come up, because she would not leave period. So I shut the door to her office and asked her if there was something she wanted to tell me.

At that point, I was told that she had been asking for God to take her home for the past year (this number has now changed to the day since we were married). That I have made her so unhappy. That I have neglected her and not loved her. That she tried time and time again to tell me. She admitted there was another guy. That she had "fond" feelings for. But she claims they had never slept together or had any physical sort of intimacy. She left for two nights and stayed at a friend's vacant apartment. This guy did come over while she was there. However, the text messages seem to suggest that he was there as a listening ear and that nothing physical took place.

She came back two days later and we sat down with a common friend who has a bit of training in counseling. She agreed that this relationship had to stop, and things actually seemed hopeful. She was ice cold to me still, but I worked my [censored] off at trying to meet any need I could (she has never been able to give me a solid description of her EN's, but I do know that quality time and showing interest in her and her feelings go a long way, and regardless, I just tried to excel in every single one of them, so that all bases were covered). I pledged that if this marriage fell apart, she wasn't going to have me as an excuse. The next weekend she went to stay with family. While gone, I noticed the text messages started again. I called the "common friend" who had helped us the one day, and we agreed that it was time to ask her to quit her job and to let her know that we should confront this guy. We gently confronted her and I got cold feet. I was scared to lose her so I compromised. I could see she was starting to feel attacked because there were two guys in the room with a common opinion. She shuts down at this point normally.

Anyhow, first thing the next day, she claims to have told him again that this was over and not happening. She said that her friend is her accountability partner on this, and that things had been good. However, I still felt I had compromised (now we get to the beginning of this entire thread).

She is completely checked out of this marriage. She doesn't seem like she wants to protect it. She is trying to figure out "who she is". This new group of friends she has from work have really pulled her into a different lifestyle. Case in point, last night. She wanted to go to a friend's place for a party alone. She came home drunk at 1:30 in the morning. I will not force my presence on her when she's alone, but she does seem like she's in a bad spot all around. I am just hoping that the counseling is going to help.

Anyhow, I hope I captured all the important details. I am more than willing to admit that I am no perfect husband. Have I been selfish at times? Yes. Have there been times where I could have listened better? Yes. Am I willing to make new patterns? Absolutely. Whatever she wants. Can she tell me what she wants? No. I have asked her countless times for a list of her most important needs. I have read marriage book after marriage book trying to figure out how to unlock her. I have tried every method of communication imaginable. Something in her past (I have mentioned that her childhood is messed up), keeps her from honestly sharing her feelings. Yesterday when she told me that essentially I'm the reason she wants to die, it hurt, like crazy. But I know deep down that this is a very hurt individual crying for help and love.

Also, for the record. I feel like there has been a misunderstanding with the whole mentioning of suicide. Probably my fault, so I'll clear that up too.

Yesterday, I asked her to leave her job, and told her that I would be telling the other guy's wife and pastor. She said that if she left the job, she would contemplate suicide, as it's the only piece of happiness she has in life. I told her to not quit her job at that point (even though it's likely a bluff) because when that word is mentioned, I don't screw around (for reasons mentioned above).

Sigh...anyhow. Like I said, I am just hoping that the counselor is going to be able to help her out. She wants to go to her alone the first time, because she thinks I'm some amazing manipulator who can pull anyone over to my side (she says this because person who has tried to help us with our marriage in the past ends up telling her that she has to deal with those childhood issues). As soon as tough love is dished out to her, she throws up a wall and runs in the other direction. She has done that to many friends.

Wow...so there it is. My story, and the longest post I've ever written on any forum ever.

Oh, and FYI, I have my own childhood issues that I've seen counselors for. Healthy people don't marry unhealthy people. I'm aware of that.

I hope you realize that it really sounds like she is in a full blown affair. I say this as a person whose wife had an affair and a person who has read countless posts on this forum for 2 years.

You need to collect more information as there is way more that you do not know.

You need to have an excellent Plan A. You need to be home.

Have you read up on exposure? What is your plan regarding exposure?

Be careful on Love Busting. Your comments relating to her past sound quite judgmental. I hope you aren't saying this to her. I'm sure the OM is not saying this.

These plans are likely your best chance at saving your marriage.

Also, what kind of counselor is she going to be seeing?

An Individual Counselor or a Marriage(Pro Marriage) counselor?

This will have an impact on you.

Yes, I realize the comments I make sound judgmental. I really don't mean them to. And that is something I need to improve on. However, I do not mention the issues much at all. A couple times in our marriage I have gently suggested she go see a counselor. That's really about it.

I don't think it's a full blown affair based on the text messages I've read. They speak as if they have been tempted to kiss, and have avoided it. And as far as I know, it's stayed that way. I do not rule it out though, and I continue to do my best to collect information.

As far as the counselor. I don't know specifically what kind she is. She has come highly recommended from three separate sources for marriage. I'm not sure how much she knows about personal counseling.

At this point, I will be exposing what I know to the OM's pastor and his wife. Other than that, I've printed off some resources from this site for her to read. Such as "Why Women Leave Men", "Policy of Joint Agreement", "4 rules". I've asked her to read them and agree to them. However, that stopped when I asked her to leave her job and have zero contact with the OM.

Other than that, I will listen very carefully and respond to her needs as best as I can. If I find any further evidence of the EA continuing or escalating, I will probably go Plan B.

I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. She stayed at a friend's vacant apartment (odd), and the OM came over and "nothing" happened????????

I'm trying to remember the last night I spent with a man where nothing happened....................

She is stalling to maintain contact.

Tell the OM's wife all about "nothing" happening. Don't warn your wife, or they will spin you as a nut case.

Hey, burnout.

I think it was a bad idea bringing the counselor friend with you and her alone. She needs someone there that she trusts.

I see her new friends as a problem, but she does need friends.

If her childhood was really bad, she needs abuse counseling, not just regular counseling. Regular counseling can handle abuse issues, but it really doesn't get to the heart of it.

It sounds like her world is spinning too fast, and she needs it to stop. You will not be able to help her with that. The good news is that neither will the OM.

I am assuming that you are a Christian. Please, please be very careful in how you use Christianity. Please, please do not use it to talk her into giving you another chance. (Manipulation and, new term, here, spiritual abuse.)

At this point, this would be a LB (DJ) and can drive her away, even from God, if she believes. If she's in a netherworld of ethical choices, she will flounder and your marriage will be shot.

It sounds like your Love Bank account with her was deep in the red. It could have been your choices that caused this, her inability to accept love, or both. Inability to accept love is an effect of abuse.

Yes, be open to the idea that she has had a PA, and decide what you're willing to do about it for yourself. I do not see that there is any reason you can't continue counseling or see your friend for some advice.

The fact that she thinks you are able to persuade anyone, coupled with her depression suggests some negative things regarding you. Plus, the suggestion that she see a counselor, no matter how nicely you stated it.

It sounds like there has been a judgment and/or perception of judgment problem between you. I could be wrong, but it may be worth discussing these things with your MC and if you have one (can't remember and can't refer back, yet), your IC. Ask for the straight truth.

Also, while I think it would be wise that your wife not be with anyone else right now, she may need space. Even with your explanation, I still see that she needs time to sort through the things in her head. If she feels judged, she won't be able to.

One more thing about the judgment: your niceness can feel like judgment to her too. Therefore, PlanA could work against you. Perhaps you could ask her how she feels when you are nice to her. Does it cause good feelings or bad ones? If bad, then your Plan A will probably need to be augmented--a lot! You want to evoke good feelings, not bad. So, if you doing a lot of housework or sending flowers makes her feel bad (beyond guilty, more specifically), don't do it. Your goal is to help her feel good about herself and her reality. Notice I'm not saying to feed her fog.

In fact, helping her to feel good about her reality (her interests and opinions) can help to lift the fog, because it can help her to realize that she's not the kind of person who revels in affairs.

Please feel free to disregard, but if she is truly a wounded soul, she's going to need a little bit different approach from the standard. A paper cut needs a band-aid and time to heal; a puncture needs packing, antibiotic, surgery or stitches...you get the idea.

YIM

Oh wow..a few things here. Appealing to a person from a moral Christian standpoint is NOT spiritual abuse.

And what? Helping her "feel good about her reality"????
That should certainly NOT be his goal. Why should she feel good about the reality that she is a cheater? And she needs to see that she absolutely HAS been reveling in an affair, and therein lies the problem.

And why would she need a different approach? She looks pretty standard wayward as far as I can see.

Am I missing something here, or is this a lot of fluffy feel-good new-agey advice?

Burnout,

As I read through this thread this morning I was struck by one very important thing. That is how precisely text-book from-the-script typical your situation is. I know it doesn't feel that way, but everything your WW is saying and doing is pretty much what every WS does and says.

The line she is feeding you about needing space..One more way to stall until she can figure out how to keep OM in her life.

The idea that the marriage is damaged beyond repair...This is so typical for a WS that if you read the banners that come up along the right side of the page, you will find a similar line (too much has happened) that cycles through along with the infamous "I love you but I'm not in love with you," (ILYBINILWY) "I need space," "I can't change my feelings," and "I just don't feel that way" (about you/about our marriage/about this house...gets applied to all sorts of stuff)...

What I am trying to tell you here is that what you are going through is not very much different than what a whole bunch of folks experienced. The things here can be of great help, but you really need to develop a plan in order to deal with the affair and your wifes reactions to it. You have to learn to recognize the fog-babble your wife is spouting to you and know how and when to react to it. If you go with your "gut" and respond in the "logical" (to you) way that comes naturally, you will end up shooting yourself in the foot every time.

You also need to realize that there are no magic bullets or anything that will simply snap her out of it and make this all go away. Also be forewarned that when you expose this affair to anyone, she will be so angry that you will not believe this could be the same woman you married.

OTOH, your situation is by no means hopeless. If you can afford it or find a way to afford it, contact the counseling center for an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. Either of them can do more in 45 minutes than many counselors can in weeks.

Don't know if you have read SAA yet. If not, do so. I would also read Fall In Love Stay In Love.

Do what you can to monopolize your wife's time so she cannot be with OM. Do not give her "space" to find herself without being able to discuss how her search is going.

Do all you can to meet her most important ENs and kill all love busters, but realize that you do not have to become a doormat for her and let her have her way to continue the affair.

I found proof on Friday, confronted my wife on Sunday; she asked for a divorce on Tuesday; I spent the night with her on Wednesday, was told she couldn't give him up on Thursday; spent Friday looking for her, Saturday meeting with my pastor, Sunday wondering where she went when she skipped church and spent the next 3 weeks living inside a glacier...But eventually my efforts began to pay off.

As you have already been told, the key here is NC with OM. That will be what will ultimately begin to turn things around. As long as she is having any contact with him, she is like an alcoholic who is only starting the day with one drink...

And assuming you guys are Christians, I will tell you the same thing my dear friend from Missouri told me one night when I felt hopeless...

Read Psalm 102:1 - 12. After you are done, read it again. Keep reading it till you get it, which you will know because it will change the way you feel inside. (won't make the pain go away I'm afraid, but will give you hope) When you are done with that, read Isaiah 57:14 - 19 (don't get hung up trying to relate to verse 17).

So critical right now is that you do not simply let her wander away all by herself...Try to keep engaged, but watch for love busters and try to kill them before they appear. But don't spend every moment of time together discussing the affair or your relationship. Make deposits into her LB$ rather than trying to fix everything at once. You can't fix over night what took years to break. And your goal needs to be to have her fall in love with you all over again. You might have to start with minutes of time together, take a break and return to it again, but don't just let her sit alone and compare your faults to her fantasy.

Mark

I didn't say he couldn't appeal to her, but he needs to be very careful with how he uses his Christianity. He can use it to be abusive. If she's in a fragile state of mind (ie. suicidal or wanting to "Go home and be with the Lord"), she is very susceptible to letting others making up her mind for her, and feeling completely incapable of making decisions. In spite of her role as a WS, she is still important as a person.

I know it sounds like he didn't intend to, but he "ganged up" on her with his counselor friend. He even admits that it might not have been the wisest thing. And he's right.


Go back and reread what I said. I'm not saying she should feel good about that. I said that she should feel good about her ideas and opinions.


Because she has, apparently, severe FOO issues--issues possibly involving moderate to severe abuse.

Only she can tell him if a standard Plan A will work. That is the only thing I'm telling him to differentiate on. Plan A is about showing what you have to offer. If what you offer makes your spouse feel bad, to keep doing it is the opposite of Plan A.

YIM

I second this, and add...more than anyone on this board could ever do.

YIM

So today brought some encouraging news. I went to OM's pastor to expose things. Turns out, the OM came by himself and did everything for me. He wants accountability from his pastors, elders, and church body. He is moving ahead with marriage-counseling. He too claims it wasn't physical. I will accept that as the truth for now, but I won't rule a PA out. The pastors asked me if it's possible for my wife to quit, as the OM is an owner of the company.

Unfortunately, my wife has yet to quit her job. She has been pretty open as of late. Cold, but open.

The advice about using my Christianity carefully was good advice. I did let an LB slip out on Sunday. It was coupled with some anger (a very rare thing for me to display at all).

I also had a bit of a revelation yesterday. I realized that I have had a recurring dream about this sort of incident intermittently through our marriage. I dream that she has been unfaithful and no matter how much I hurt, she doesn't care. That led to me realizing that I have always been PETRIFIED of losing her, which in turn points to a very real possibility that I have extremely low self esteem.

What I am trying to process is how my fear of losing her could've damaged our relationship. I've read (and believe) that women are very good at reading into the subtleties of situations. Could I have been controlling in a passive manner? Possibly I guess. I sure as heck have never purposely controlled or manipulated, but I suppose that us humans having that wonderful tendency to be blind to our own problems could sure play into this.

Anyhow, it's food for thought. I started a journal last night. Very therapeutic! Brings a lot of pain out. But I feel that's a good thing. I'd rather it come out when I'm alone then in front of her at this point.

I am well aware that this situation is by no means extraordinary. Personally, I can't believe that so many people have experienced this pain (sometimes worse). I can't imagine how bad it would get if kids were involved.

Anyhow, so there's a status update. I very much appreciate the honest input. Please keep it coming.

So it's been pretty uneventful. Marriage counseling started today. She wanted to go first as she feels that I'm so manipulative that I'll pull the counselor over to my side. I don't care. I know where I am at in my heart.

The day-to-day stuff hurts. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that it is pure torture to feel like your spouse is repulsed at your very presence.

We're still sleeping in the same bed. Well...she's sleeping. I toss and turn most of the night. My heart was pounding so hard last night that I thought I was going to have some bizarre broken heart issue. I guess it's just really difficult when you say, "I love you," and you get nothing back...day after day after day. You speak a kind word and it's met with silence. You put a ton of effort into writing a heart felt card describing very specific things that you love about her, and it's not even mentioned.

I've heard a saying: If you want to break a man, make him feel like he isn't needed. That's how I feel. I feel like I represent to her the greatest inconvenience in her life - a life-long relationship that she's forced to be in.

Anyhow, sorry for whining, but it had to get let out somewhere.

Have you read Surviving an Affair?

What is your plan?

I don't know what my plan is. I thought I had one, but it seems to not work out constantly.

I've asked for NC, but suicide is threatened when I asked her to quit her job. So I figured I'd work on Plan A and compete, but she won't even let me.

Her emotional needs are affirmation and quality time. Pretty hard to do when she leaves every weekend and does her best to avoid me every day.

She moved downstairs last week. It's like one more bullet ripped through my heart. Many close friends that have known both of us for our entire marriage are suggesting that I draw a line in the sand. Either she is committed to working on this marriage in at least some sort of tangible way, or I need to just check out emotionally and get on with my life and wait for her to make her way back.

I have Plan A'd my [censored] off for just over one month and there is NOTHING, ZERO. I've been chasing and chasing. I think it's time that I stop chasing and just wait with my arms open.

I have heard phrases like, "I really want kids, but not with you...You have never fulfilled your vows to love and cherish me...I want to die because of this marriage..." It's arsenic for my soul and my self esteem.

I made my vows and I will stick to them. The only thing that will bring about divorce is unrepentant sexual infidelity, and I have no evidence of that...yet...so far I can only prove an emotional affair.

Sorry for the scrambled post...my heart is in very poor condition today.