ML,

Because it doesn’t always work.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t feel I am over-rotating.

I have always recommended people call the MB counseling center. I think perhaps 1/3 of my posts since I have been here recommend “call the MB counseling center,” or “call the Harleys.”

People needing help recovering from an A need to get it from the horse’s mouth. Not from these amateurs here.

I believe people showing up new and looking for help need to know the truth that MB does not always work as advertised. Results and specific approaches are so strongly dependent on the individual situation, the variety of A, the state of NC, on whatever, that the blind rules propounded by certain ignorant and self-centered posters are a terrible disservice. There is way too much conflicting and misinformation touted as “the only way”. Some of these posters statements are pure falsehoods.

Recovery is whatever the BS decides it is. Criticizing my FWW (or anyone’s WS) because she is not doing something according to MB Holy Scripture is, well, it pisses me off. Then of course by extension since I do not have the kind of recovery some other poster wants or needs it is insinuated there is something wrong with me.

That doesn’t just piss me off - I push back with the truth.

If a critical poster is not trying to recover from their own spouse's VLTA, I think they need to just shut up and listen. They might learn something if their fingers are still at least some of the time.

The lowest point in my recovery was a couple of years ago when I realized I was being consistently misled on MB. And mostly because of other posters egos. My wife’s highly entangled VLTA could not be handled in some cookie-cutter MB fashion. But man, whenever I tried to get info about trying something outside the box I was criticized and put down.

And now I see it happening again to new people here.

It isn’t right.

Oh, and to be fair, I admit I should have used “did not want to Plan A” instead of “repudiated.” I type too fast and start streaming.

I have to get back to work. I am digesting a technical report in the original Russian and I need to finish it today.

maybe if you had listened you wouldn't have what looks like a mess of a marriage(I don't know much about your situation, but from what you post, it doesn't sound pretty)...at least from an outside vantage point. Seems to me that you are taking out the failure to return your M to a healthy state on MB and the people here.

As far as the boards...if you don't like the format, why are you here?

While I might think it reasonable for someone coming here for feedback 2 "consider" what's said by the great unwashed masses (the rest of us) on here, it is entirely up 2 the reader whether 2 implement what's suggested here.

I was here during the time referred 2 by Appy, and I am familiar with his si2ation.

He speaks the truth.

And his2ry is repeating itself here. Reduntantly. Over and over again.

-ol' 2long

Aphelion,

I am sorry if I "pissed you off" but my comments to you were in direct response to your inflamatory remarks about BSs here who must have "too much testosterone," and THAT is why they actually have the nerve to have SF as a top EN. In addition you took a shot at others by stating that those BSs who have the courage to fight for the best M possible, are somehow lacking in ethics. If you don't want people to comment about your situation, then why don't you keep YOUR opinions to yourself? I have no "problem" with your personal or marital recovery...the only "problem" I had was your back-handed excuse for inaction on your part, which was aimed at some of the people I have the utmost respect for here.

And your statements about Dr. Harley and MB principles are clearly warped to fit the excuses you have made for not following them. Noone has ever said this stuff works all of the time, and Dr. Harley actually prefaces his entire infidelity section on this site by revealing that he would divorce Joyce if she cheated on him, and that Joyce has said she would KILL him, if he cheated on her! I could quote many statements throughout his articles to show that he by no means thinks his program is foolproof or that it works in every case. But, I agree with ML...if you are so bitter about MB, then why are you here? These forums are to discuss MARRIAGE Building, not personal growth or whatever.

And along the lines of MB no-no's...there is this gem...


So, not only are you discussing your intimate marital details with a female co-worker...now you are taking her to lunch...and I am the one who "doesn't know what I'm doing?" Interesting.

One last thing...


We are here to help and support each other to try to achieve the very best Ms possible. I DO believe that MB is amazing. I DO believe in its principles and teachings. It saved my M, that's for sure!! So, I am here to try and give back in some way to others who are mired in the misery of infidelity...and I will not (NOT EVER) tell a single one of them that it is OK TO SETTLE for crumbs. Because I do not believe it is healthy, I do not believe that it leads to happiness, and I do not believe it is what MOST people want...especially after being hurt in one of the worst ways possible. That includes you, Aphelion, because as long as you continue to post here, your stuff is out there for other MB posters to comment, take offense to, or critique. Like my mom always said "If you can't take the heat, then say out of the kitchen!"

Aphelion has always been one of my favorite posters, and so I was completely SHOCKED when I read your words last night, LaLa. You do so much good here, and maybe it came across wrong in writing.

But I certainly would not appreciate someone throwing my previous postings in my face, which is how it seemed to me.

Different people have different ethics, needs, etc. His life is a good one, and he is still with his family. Kudos to him.

And for all of the others who are still in such pain in recovery, my heart goes out. They deserve a good life too, in whatever way they define one.

I hope you were just as shocked Believer when you read Aphelions words!

"I see three themes imbedded in the evolution of this thread:

1. The people most vociferous, most strenuous in criticizing BH who stay in what they see as a less than perfect M after an affair seem to be BH who’s top EN is either SF or admiration. Must be testosterone related.
2. Some people appear to believe romantic love is more important than ethics and happiness is impossible without it.
3. Some BH self-respect hinges mostly on how their wife treats them. Or on what they think their wife thinks of them.

These are the saddest things, IMO. I know because I used to be the poster boy for all three. "

Nope, don't find them shocking at all............

But then, I've changed a lot since my ex's affair. I've learned to be happy within myself. It took a miserable 4 years to get to the place where I am.

I remember once posting to Bob Pure something along the lines of "just get over it". What a cold and stupid thing to say! Now days, I know that folks are different, and what would be a good life for one would be h*ll for another.

Anyway, didn't mean to interrupt this thread, I think it is an excellent one. We need to hear more about the recovery struggle, instead of just thinking everyone lived happily ever after.

Believer...Aphelion took shots at many of the BSs (and FWSs) here by questioning their ethics (among other things) simply because they want a good M. It was in very poor taste.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my words...

Not to worry LaLa. You are doing an outstanding job of paying it forward.

But I didn't see anything in poor taste in his postings. I guess different opinions is what makes for a good discussion.

You are absolutely right...and thank you! I shall try to behave!

You don't think that's a put down? Even Dr Harley says most men would have SF as one of their top 3 EN's.


I guess it depends on your definition of ethics or what you believe to be ethical but this is just another put down.


I don't see that at all - in fact I think he totally missed the point as did you.


Well I always like to finish on a point of agreement.

Except to say most new BH's would be horrified to think this was the best they can expect after 4 years of "recovery". Many would just cut and run if they thought that was the best they could expect. So you have other opinions countering that and you are shocked.

Well OK.

Oh, LaLa, you are doing just fine.

Actually (and this may be a DJ, so I will apologize in advance), the SF part never bothered me. And SF is something I enjoy, and always have. But it was kind of just out of sight, out of mind for me.

Never had movies in my mind like many do. It was the emotional stuff that tore my heart out - that my husband took her to a restaurant that I'd always wanted to go to, that she rode behind him on our new Harley.

What percentage of the couples on MB that you have seen would you say have achieved your levels of satisfaction with their recovered marriage, BK ?

Hey wow...

I just hit the "reset" button 2 refresh the page, and found myself in the twilight zone! ...page 18 of 12! No jive!

...

Anyway, Bob: I'm glad you asked that 2uestion. I was thinking something similar, perhaps. I think the his2ry of this website is testament 2 the likelihood that the vast majority of BSs, while appalled early on at the thought that they might still be "struggling" after 4 years, nonetheless find themselves dealing with the aftermath of infidelity at the 4 year mark.

But perhaps not struggling, as they feared they would be (because early on, that's all we knew).

Someone ought 2 compile statistics.

-ol' 2long

I have no idea Bob.

A lot of people stop posting as soon as the affair ends and you don't hear.
A lot consider themselves recovered and are never heard of again.
A lot don't recover their marriages.

I don't even know if it would be possible to guess at statistics.

Does Dr Harley consider marriages recovered where there is still immense marital disatisfaction? I don't think so yet he says that 85% (was it) of couples who follow his program recover.

Fully agree. I don't think many do fully follow the MB program together though.

Where you at Krazy? There has been lots of good information in here even with the TJs.

Personally, I didn't take offense at any of Aphelion's rants, simply because I can't take seriously the marital philosophies of anyone who admits to not having SF with their W in over 10 years.

From reading his posts, its obvious he is educated and intelligent, just completely CLUELESS about the interactions within human relationships. If he's content (I think "happy" would be a stretch) with his lot in life, good for him, but he should be intelligent enough to not get his "panties in a wad" when some testosterone driven BH challenges his pretzel logic.

Wow...another BH putting up with this??? I hope this isn't true.


that might be one of the funniest things I have read here.

Not that Aphelion needs me to defend him, but here goes:

LaLa: Aphelion was not intimating those who disagree with him lack ethics. He was explaining WHY he stays married. His ethics dictate he stays married, in part because of his children, but also because he made a vow and he takes that very seriously.

MyRev: I disagree. I find it noble that someone would care so much for their child they would sacrifice romantic love in order to provide for the child's well-being.

Now before we get into the back and forth arguments about children seeing the misery in the home with warring parents and how much better off they would be if they didn't and modeling self-respect to the child, etc., etc. I didn't see from Aphelion's description of a typical week that his child is being harmed. In fact, it sounds as if the child was benefitting from having both parents there parenting him together.