Laws change by challenge. Thankfully. Some of them are pitiful and archaic.

Road,

I saw this written in one of the comments blogs off OM's website where someone said:

It's like OM was playing in BH's backyard, struck gold and now wants to call the "find" his.

Thought that was apropos.

Another difference.

I think you and I both look at OM's website and are disturbed by the overriding evil context of the items whereas Mary seemingly can ignore the fact that all those pictures and videos comprised only HOURS of bonding with OM and took place within the context of an adulterous sick hotel room. She can, as she said, read the letters and buy into the "feelings" that OM HOPES to pull on the unknowing public at large in order to win his case.

I was really trying to find the right analogy. All I could come up with is.

To me, OM's website is akin to a man putting videos of himself having sex with prostitutes on the internet and attempting to utilize such videos to convince the public that he's a kind and gentle lover.

You see...those videos, pictures, letters, emails are all EXHIBIT A to what I believe to be the WORST behavior this man, hopefully, has ever done in his life. They are not appropriate to put out there as EXAMPLES of his worthiness as any other than a man deserving of condemnation and judgement.

This man has absolutely NO SHAME.

Road..you see it. Others don't, and that's disturbing to me.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Mary, I'm working on a response to you.

mkevery

Laws change and they should. Is your position that the OM gets to choose and pick which laws he gets to have inforced?

Your response to me implies so.

actually my reply speaks to challenging unjust laws. There are A LOT of them on the books. My reply to you did not imply what you took from it.

Mary,

It's interesting when people use "bias" to attempt to undermine someones opinion as not only is "bias" a weak argument (as every perspective adds to the conversation...not that every perspective is always valid) but you'll typically find that the person pointing the "bias" finger has three "bias" fingers pointing back at them.

Your last post finally made that clear to me. You fear my argument places more emphasis on the marriage (and argument inconceivable to you whereupon your MM and his BW could potentially try to use a "married [trump] card" against you to take your OC away from you) than on any "best interests test" which you feel you would certainly win considering your MM has abandoned your child.

Such "fear" isn't misplaced. IF I were a judge (I could run for judge any day now), given your words in this thread and the facts as presented herein, I very likely would give much preference to your former MARRIED man and his BW if they petitioned for primary custody of your child in my hypothetical courtroom TODAY. His marriage comes before your child in God's eyes. He is demonstrating repentence every day that he honors his wife and original family and cuts you out of his life. It is not more than 50% HIS actions that have denied his bio-child a father. You could have and should have adopted your baby out to a loving married family that could have raised that child in a traditional nuclear family ABSENT of this mess where your child began. Children THRIVE best in married families.

I am not saying that to hurt you. It's just my opinion, like I said. There are certainly more things than just what I read here to be considered. I, like most judges, would PROPERLY have some bias towards the mother. But comparitively (to the judges in most courts today) it would be very little. I merely consider the 10 months of gestation to be counted towards the mother's developement of a bond with the child thus, most newborn's should be with and stay with the mother (beside the fact they breast feed anyway). However, I wouldn't hold your MM's lack of involvement with your child as a negative necessarily. He IS stepping up and doing right by his wife...which is his FIRST priority and then for him AND his BW to both step up to seek custody of your child would be huge. I would seriously judge the BW's motives, words, actions to determine her reasoning but SHE (as YOUR and MM's victim) would be the most trusted person of the THREE of you in court. On the other hand, one big reason I may rule for a mother in such position is that I would want to protect the BW from the obligation and responsibility of raising your OC and continued contact with her abuser. It would take a HUGE heart for some woman to do that AND maintain her marriage.

Such potential custody award to your MM would include strict visitation guidelines which insure NO CONTACT between you and MM. BW would be the only avenue of visitations and I wouldn't obligate her to EVERY wednesday evening and EVERY other weekend. I'd likely limit it to every other weekend and lots of holidays and a longer than typical summer visitation such that exchanges and contact with you by BW would be as limited as possible to keep you away from their marriage.

Enough of that. It's all just speculation anyway. I have no idea what kind of mother you are or what kind of parents they are. I do sense you have hostility towards the BW. I sense you feel SHE is the reason your childs father isn't involved. I sense you feel entitled to forgiveness and are frustrated that she won't accept your apology. I sense you still buy and value the "love" you and MM shared as real and likewise you still buy the bullcrap he likely fed you about his evil, manipulative, neglectful wife (he was lying by the way). What I don't know is what that apology looked like and whether you are truly repentent to your victim and God...THAT would be VERY important to me as a judge and since you are actually here listening to me it's important to me as a MB poster and compassionate person.

Thus, lets move to address what I think you should do rather than hypothetically ripping on you. You are a friend of Kimmy's and any friend of hers is a friend of ours. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you. I am truly sorry if my opinion offends.

I think you should TRY again to apologize to your MM's wife only do it better. I presume what you want more than anything is a father for your child...ANY father is better than what you have today. The only proper way for you to get that for your child is via the BW. However, this time draft an email and post it here for input. Such email should be an act of contrition. You need to lay yourself at her feet in total surrender to her, begging for her forgiveness and in the alternative begging for her to allow her husband to be a father to your child for the childs sake only. It should express that you will allow her and her only to determine the visitation schedule and arrangements. That you will not seek nor speak to her husband ever again...EVERYTHING will go through her and her only. Offer her a week or two every summer, offer her holidays, offer her WHATEVER reasonable time she wants and YOU will be more than willing to accomodate HER. In fact, if she herself never wants to see YOU, you offer to accomodate that too and have an independent third party facilitate the transfers of custody. You also tell her you aren't worthy of her forgiveness and aren't entitled to it. That this email or letter isn't about you at all...but you apologize once again nonetheless.

We can help you write this. You MAY just get your childs father back in his life. THAT would be wonderful, wouldn't it???

Respectfully,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I almost forgot. You MUST offer the BW to remove the MM's last name from your child. I don't know what you were thinking but if she wants HER last name removed from your child than so be it. (I don't know why but I suspect you did this as a slap towards HER and/or MM either way...that's how BW feels about it).

p.p.s. - I considered telling you to offer to forego the child support as that is money that is rightfully the BW's families money; however, perhaps that's your MM's consequences and rightful responsibility. mmmmm.

p.p.p.s. - Still worried about my double standard???

***CRUD...I was logged in as Mr. W, but this is Mrs. W!


Understood MEDC, but what about the sanity of this?

From pg. 50 of the sworn deposition of Julia N. Ricketts...April 6, 2007...

Full Deposition HERE.


That sounds extremely creepy to me...

Mrs. W

Greepy is an understatement. That is perverted. I have never heard of a man whether the farther or not try to do something as that.

I do not think that any one will be made whole from this problem.
There is no judge smart enough for this challenge.

The COM will be hurt when they learn their B is an OC because their mom cheated on their dad.

The OC will be hurt because people tried to keep him from his DNA D.

The marriage will never heal fully with the OM involved with joint custody.

Joint custody will only serve to rub the affair in the BH's face for the rest of his marriage.

The OC will financially take away from the COM.

Did the OM pay for the prenatal care, delivery? Any of the material or doctor visits associated with a pregnancy? Did the OM take care of the maternity wardrobe?

Has the OM offered to pay or put money into an escrow account for the OC's upbringing?

As low as the OM is he will always mourn the lose of his OC.

But was the OM's intent to ride the WW bareback and get WW pregnant his underhanded way to force the WW to divorce the BH. Let WW risk loosing custody of her COM. Only for the OM to win sole possession of the WW. That is my take on the OM's motives.

Then my position would be if the OM was willing for WW to risk losing her COM only so WW gets a divorce from the BH does not deserve to have his feelings considered that he is losing the OC.

MR W

I agree with your position that mary's motives are biased.

All the more confusing because she said she was a BW twice. You'd think someone who *knows* would have no desire to visit that on anyone else.

Mr W: You said a mouth full and I did not even finish reading it. Let me start off by saying to you that when MM and I went to court we had one of the most conservative judges in this town. In fact due to the circumstances of Mm and I, I asked my attorney to change judges but she talked me into giving him a chance that the law was he law and then see what happens. When MM's attorney told the Judge he wanted no legal rights to his child, the judge shook his head at him in shame for abondanding his child and told him that if he later changed his mind it would only be under the mother's supervision and strick guidelines would be forced on him.

As for his wife. You could not be further from the truth. If she chooses not to forgive me that is her choice. I had to forgive MM and I did. I left them alone completly. I accepted what he wanted and even if he did it for his wife who cares? The bottom line is it is what it is correct? It's his actions not anybody else's. She is not my child's father it is him. I don't care if she took a gun to his privates and threatened him the fact is it was him not her or anyone else that has to answer for his own actions. Just as it's ONLY me who can answer for my actions. No one else.

Maybe I sound calus because I'm too far out from it. A better word would be "indifferent". You don't know me and you don't how I felt. For you to presume what you are presuming is wrong and judgamental and IMHO you should repent for that as that is a sin too. Am I right? I don't blame his wife for anything other than what she personally did to my child or towards my child. She really does not play a role in how I feel about xmm with all that happened. I blame xmm for everything he did and again I have forgiven him. I took ALL the blame for what happened. He blamed his wife for the affair and blamed me for the child. He "was innocent" in the whole darn thing. I did not make any effort to change his story or make sure she knew "my truth". I left them alone. See you don't know me at all. Anyone that knows me knows I'm as strong as a person can be and I will take care of anything that comes my way that I have to take care. I don't claim nor have I ever claimed I was a victum to the affair with xmm. I know full well my end of it. I PAID my dues for that. Just as I'm sure your wife did.

As far as my defending this OM in the KY case again it goes with everything I feel about "parents" rights and knowing too many men that are great fathers who have gotten custody of there kids for various reasons and to those who should have. It also goes with the fact that this OM dd not act alone. He had a culprit the WW. The wondering wife went off birth control 3 weeks before they had sex that got her pregnant. They are both equally to blame for this little boys exsistants. I also see it as just because the WW is married does not give her a ticket to choose who her kids father is when she feels like it. Her husband is a victum. I agree. Her COM are also. But unlike this little boy he chose to work it out with her. Knowing full well that the child would be in this Om's life. I could totally understand if he could not handle that. It would be diffucult but I've seen a few BH that wanted there marriage and shared custody with the OM. Pops is a prime example. I tipped my hat off to that man.

Now as far as me being a single mother statement. OMG! Please Please don't tell me that you are so shallow towards single parents. It is not always best to keep children in a toxic "intact" home for the sake of them. Again you know nothing about my xh or what happened in my marriage.

I work my butt off for my family and also provide a stable and happy home for them. I have made sacarices with my own career and needs and wants to esure the stabilty of my children. Even my COM only have ME to rely on and know that they will be taken care of. My xh is a disney land dad even when we lived under the same roof.

I have straight A students who excel in there eduction, and they are both well balanced, well behaved, respectful to all people no matter what. I have taught them to forgive people as no one is perfect but you work on doing what the wrong was to correct it, and not to judge someone because it might not fit with what our lives are like because you never know what has happened to someone to put them where they are at. Including there father as he has hurt them more times than I can count on my hands and feet.

I had a choice to make when I divorced my xh. A stabilty home for my kids, or an extra income. I choice the stabilty for my kids well being.

Through this entire debate with you I have not judge you but have tried to understand you and why you feel the way you do. I have been around enough bw's to know why they feel the way they do. You can probaly say I have met and become friends with more bw's than ow's.

One more thing than I am going to let this post go.......as far as giving up my child to a two parent home. When I became pregnant I considered it. I even went and talked to a counseler at a adoption agency not to mention the counseler I was already in therapy with and my minister. Again you don't know my past. You don't know what I've been through that made me make the decissions I did regarding my oc.

I know there are going to be challenges and to be honest they have already started, but I take them one at a time and handle them. At some point she will know the entire truth through the guide of a counsler. I won't lie to her. My older children already know thanks to my xh's girlfriend....so I had to explain to them before I felt they were actually ready but that is done. As luck would have it, my kids know me and know that I typically don't make the same mistake twice.

I can not imagine our life without my oc. When she looks at me and smiles and tells me how much she loves me I know I made the right decission. Just as MM had a choice to abandon her, I had the choice not to kill her or give her up. In the end we both have to pay for our decissions in life.

Mr. W: My xmm's marriage may or maynot be all that you just said. It's non of my business. Everyone has there reasons for staying and leaving a marraige. It's not my place to judge those reasons, only accept it.

I agree, but I do so hoping that that is the reason she came her (or was referred here).

That is why I spent the time to offer her A PLAN OF ACTION to help clear the fog.

I wouldn't have wasted my time otherwise.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I believe it's very difficult to clear fog in these situations as, IMO, OW mothers with OC's seemingly have a difficult time conceiving of the notion they have to regret the entire circumstances within which they conceived and bore this beautiful and innocent child. Not only are they strongly invested in the notion their child was born of LOVE, to them, to regret it, they perhaps feel is to spit in the face of God whom has provided them this wonderful baby. Maybe they just feel to do so would be like saying "I regret having this baby" which seems like something only a bad mother would say. Maybe it's the burden of seemingly unmitigatable constant unbearable guilt. There is no escaping it when a infant/toddler is around you all the time...so denial and blame shifting is the order of the day. However, I believe you CAN regret your affair AND the OC completely. You CAN own it, offer and make amends and still love your child and appreciate separately all that is wonderful about such child. Unfortunately, when you add in entitlement for child (typical parental instinct to stand up for their children magnified by the perceived stigma of a adulterous pregnancy/child) to entitlement for wayward self and you've got quite a foggy mixture....IMO. BUT...I am ever hopeful. Nothing God can't handle.

Awh i missed that one.......Luckily for me It won't. Unless I am a criminal or a drugie I am in a great standing. I have had full custody since the day my child was born. As my attorney stated even if I die this man won't get custody of my daughter unless comes forward and starts being a father to his daughter. I have already appointed gaurdianship with an attorney to stop the probate her father is willing to put her in because he does not like the way it looks on paper (eye rolling). She is all mine.

NOW if he were to ever step up to the plate and want to be in her lif ON THE UP AND UP including his wife I'll be more than happy to incorporate her in that. She deserves her dad just as much as the next kid out there.

Now that is funny. You really don't know me. Kimmy would you like to elaborate on this? Mr. W I came out of the fog the NIGHT I found out I was pregnant before I EVEN told xmm the next day. IT opened my eyes wide up in that short one second of looking at that pregnancy test!

Mary...respectfully,

Fog clearing is a process no one, not even BS's, accomplish in one night or many people, a lifetime.

Perhaps you considered yourself "fog-free" to soon and just stopped processing??

Regardless...I presume you are here to grow. I acknowledge again I don't know all your circumstances. You are new here and merely revealled some of your situation and I have compared such information to what I've seen in other similiar situations. Perhaps such was unjustified.

I apologize.

Perhaps, if you are trusting enough (I mean you no harm - ask Kimmy), you could explain the way you went about apologizing to the BW the two times you attempted it so we can glean the reason why she won't accept it. Of course, she doesn't have to but my assumption was your apology was likely wholly inadequate...I am more than willing to be wrong.

I guess asking you if you even value her forgiveness is more the starting point. If it's not something you care about, why should I/we bother.

Mr. Wondering

Nope...not right...It is NOT wrong for Christians to JUDGE, it's wrong to CONDEMN...BIG DIFFERENCE...

If we don't "judge", then how are we to tell the difference between right and wrong, Mary?

Anyone that JUDGED my actions to be to wrong as a WW, were EXACTLY RIGHT...Was I supposed to say to them, "You can't judge me!"? Ummmm, noooooooooo...People with an intact moral compass most certainly should be able to tell right from wrong...ie JUDGE...

You do realize that you are not meeting your very own standard, right? You calling Mr. W judgemental IS a judgement...You can't have it both ways Mary...

Mrs. W

P.S. I do find it funny that Mr. W TOLD you in his post that he was being a HYPOTHETICAL JUDGE...So, of COURSE, he was JUDGING...Was he supposed to be a judge that didn't judge???

P.P.S. And Mary, you admitted that you didn't even read his entire post...It was a good post, and you should read it...I promise you that Mr. W is one of the kindest men and posters around here...His intent was pure...

Mr W: I don't want to quote again and have this long post again, but yes I do see it as a double standard. Very much so...on one hand you are still saying if a WW gets pregnant the om has no rights as a bio parent, but if the MM gets someone pregnant he is in his right to go in and out of the life of this child on what suits him and/or his family. Big time.

Nope won't forgo the child support. He helped concieve her and therefore we both get to pay that price. Trust me I was very gentle with him on the Cs end. I was very kind! My daughter has a right to that child support and every dime is used on her not to mention what I spend out of my own pocket as well which is the way it should be.

As far as her last name.......that would be a NO too. She has a right to both of our names. When she turns 18 she can choose to drop it or use one or the other or both. She may not have the right to see her father........but she is entilted to some rights. I won't take it all away from her. I know you will never see the logic of that and I'm sorry but you are not walking in he shoe either.

It has nothing to do with "fog", but the rights of my child. Do you really think I enjoy her having his last name as well as mine? OH NO.

Let me ask you in order to prove I'm "repentful" I should give up cs and drop his last name? I have proven I'm repentful and remorseful. That does not mean however that I would put my child's need behind his or mine. I could have kept the affair going if I would have aborted........I chose my daughter xmm.

Mrs. W you abosolutly right....I judged. And after I hit submit I thought of that. But did not have the time to go in and edit. So for that I have it coming.....

As far as the Judging end......Mrs. W you are speaking to the choir. I was raised in a very strict So. Baptist home. One of the biggest problems I have is judging. not judging but seeing people judge. No I don't agree with that statement. You can be a very good christain and NOT judge. I will admit it is a natural thing to do in our society though. I work very hard at not judging. I know right from wrong. How I try to handle my judging is this way........I don't agree with what I see or hear and I have the right to say how I feel, but I have no idea what that person has gone through. I don't know if that person is or is not of my belief's. How that person was raised. I am not perfect myself and in God's eyes my sin is no less or better than the next. It's up to me to rectify my actions.

My dad has a saying that I try and use daily. Love the person, hate the sin. At least in my christain faith church my minister teaches us not to judge. Although i don't know you I am to love you.

Maybe my defination of Judging is different than yours? I will read the entire post to me, but I will be honest, the parts I saw were give up child, single parent bad, loose the last name......(and paraphrasing here) your daughter has no rights. Then a few other things. Even if I were not a FOW w/oc and just a single mother for whatever reason, to say that about single parents is absurb. It's an insult to parents who have successfully raised upstanding successful children. There is no gaurntee intact family or not that your doing what is always best for your kids. Most single parents sacrafice a lot to protect there kids and give them as much as if they were married.

It's not always possible to keep the marriage and sometimes (sad but true) it's best to disolve the marraige when it's very toxic.

Mr. W: Actually I am not new here. I regristered under the same screen name but had not been here in awhile.

You are right the process takes longer than a night. It took me about 2 years to get past it. My wake up call was that positive line. Does that make more sense?

I will come back later after I feed my daughter and post how I apoligized both times. I will also give some background.

Kinda off the current topic but I'd like to come back to an issue troubling me about the Ky case.

Not only do I think James should have to repent and seek any potential visitation in the manner I suggested to Mary above (through contrite repentence to his victim Jon. basically laying himself at Jon's feet and accepting whatever Jon deems in Anthony's best interest); James is going to have to one day repent and seek his own biological son, Anthony's forgiveness.

I can envision the following letter;

Dear Anthony;

Please forgive me for I have sinned and failed you and your parents, particularly your father, on so many levels. I never should have brought such shame and disgrace upon your family. I never should have posted the sick, sad and twisted pictures, emails and videos of you all over the internet for the world to see and judge.

I never meant to hurt you but I was blinded by my own sin and my pursuit of what I thought was the "truth" and what I thought was right. I was deeply mistaken. My selfishness blinded me to my own misguided sense of entitlement.

The truth is, that although I am your biological father (as you are aware because your loving parents told you long ago about me) I was no where near the capable man you needed to raise, guide, instruct and support you properly. The Ky Supreme Court, through their infinite wisdom saw fit to protect you from me and they were right.

I am trying to be a better man today and pray that we can soon or one day establish a friendship. Now that you are an adult you have the right to make that decision. I will forever be grateful to your father for raising, from what I've been told, a kind, thoughtful, and intelligent son. I so wanted to try or at least be involved; but, I now know I would not have done such a masterful job as I was gripped with evil at the time of your childhood. I behaved selfishly and failed to see that you too had rights, the right to privacy and the right to be raised in a stable home without the interference of a truly evil outsider such as myself.

I have done much soul searching and regretfully it took me years to develope a repentent heart. As you are likely aware, I have finally properly apologized to your father, Jon and he has graciously accepted my apology upon the rightful condition that I remove myself from further disturbing your childhood. I have dutifully fulfilled and respected such promise to him and hold no animosity towards your mother nor father. They did what they had to do to protect you from me. Above and beyond that I have repaid your father, Jon, over $30,000 over the last few years as further attempt to compensate him for the pain, suffering and legal costs I selfishly bestowed upon him and your grandfather, Charles.

I hope you will forgive me too. I had no business interferring in your parents marriage and have recently finally owned my mistakes. I'd love to move forward with establishing a relationship with you as your biological father, not as a replacement to your real father, Jon. You are under no compulsion to accept this apology. I don't deserve it but I have suffered and endured many consequences and awaited this opportunity for many years. Nothing would please me more than to get to know you.

With humility,

James