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Is catperson not understanding? I think this is a HUGE mistake on her part.
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[quote=introvert]I would like to ask anyone with a child, who is in the situation of "I'm doing it for the kid(s)" (don't take my quote out of context, please)...do you consider your child to be part of your marital union, of sorts?... /quote]
To quote one of my children "well duh!"
Yes I see my children is part of my marriage, without the marriage there would have been no children. Without the children I would no longer be married. Then, to yourself and others that answer yes to my question. If the children are part of the marital union, and are part of your recovery process...I would assume that you have already told them that THEY are the reason that you are still mariied to their mom/dad?...using the MB priniple of honesty and openess? If you have disclosed this to them, then kudos...if you haven't disclosed this to the child...why not? (obviously the child being an infant is a reason) I said that I view children as part of the marriage, I didn't say they were part of the marital union. AS Dr. Harley explains Radical Honesty is a concept to be used between spouses. My wife knows why I stayed. She stayed too for the same reason. If you asked her now, I'm sure she would say there is more to our marriage than the children. At one time that was all there was, but it was enough. And we survived. So, it's a bad idea to practice Radical Honesty with your children? I'm happy things worked out for you and your wife, btw. Nice to see that.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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you lost me on this one Introvert. CHILDREN are not due radical honesty. That is between the husband and wife. And there is NO WAY a child should be burdened with that guilt. medc, in most cases you are right. In my situation, it was my D17 wanting to move out, and me choosing, for her, that we would stay and I would use MB to see how I can improve my half of our M, because the alternative would be worse. With younger children, they should not be privy to marital discussions. But with a 16 year old who was totally conflicted and confused, I felt it was appropriate. And as it turns out, she is learning from me that you have to work on a M to get good results, so I feel she's benefiting from knowing. I stand by my assessment
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I guess, because I don't have kids, I don't really see how trying to love and/or forgive a spouse by using an outside reason to try to fall back in love, is a good thing. I fell in love with my W when we had nothing. I don't really look at it any differently than owning a home together, or finances or owning the dog together. My decision to try to recover had absolutely nothing to do with the house, finances or the dog...and everything to do with the fact that I love my W...and, if we had children I would not use them as a reason any more than I would use the other examples of things that we are attached by...because we never had any of those things either when we fell in love...they are outside attachments...not a reason to love or forgive. JMO, but to each his own. I'm pretty sure that if you have kids some day, you will understand how silly the comparison to 'money, house and dog' really is.
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So, it's a bad idea to practice Radical Honesty with your children? yes, IMHO...it is. And again, the POLICY of radical honesty was developed for H & W... not parents and children.
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I do not see the point in discussing that stuff any longer...we will agree to disagree. I hope you see my next question, and can answer it though. The point being that just because someone disagrees with you does not give you the right to call them name and shift the blame and ignore. I did answer your question. But it appears to me that you really do not want to hear what I am saying and are just looking for a way to prove that staying together for the kids is a copout. Ignore
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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I would like to ask anyone with a child, who is in the situation of "I'm doing it for the kid(s)" (don't take my quote out of context, please)...do you consider your child to be part of your marital union, of sorts? When me and H were on the verge of Divorce I never once thought about staying together for the children. Some have just for the childrens sake but in the long run why? Besides not having kids come from "broken" homes? My H and I were from broken homes. WE stayed together not because of the kids but because we worked and are working on our M. I personally will not stay together just for the children. I believe you have to look at everything as a whole and what will benfit everyone. I came back to the marriage because of the children. They are a large part of the reason that I am still in the marriage. But they are not the only reason of course. I'm there now because I want a stable family . . . and I love my wife. I don't know if I could stay married for another 15 years just for the kids . . . if I felt no love for my spouse I don't think I could stay that long. Dont get me wrong I love my kids and they are a part of the marrage. Without them I would be lost. But if the marriage has failed that bad then why stay for ONLY the kids? Does make me wonder when ppl say they are still married only for the children
Married 1996 4 wonderful children 16, 13 *OC*, 10, 7 FWW 30's FWH 30's My dday 1-2007 he came clean to me My story New beginings
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So, it's a bad idea to practice Radical Honesty with your children? yes, IMHO...it is. And again, the POLICY of radical honesty was developed for H & W... not parents and children. Can you explain why you feel this way? I thought honesty was the best policy? Who would you be hurting by telling the child...the child...or yourself?
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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I would like to ask anyone with a child, who is in the situation of "I'm doing it for the kid(s)" (don't take my quote out of context, please)...do you consider your child to be part of your marital union, of sorts? When me and H were on the verge of Divorce I never once thought about staying together for the children. Some have just for the childrens sake but in the long run why? Besides not having kids come from "broken" homes? My H and I were from broken homes. WE stayed together not because of the kids but because we worked and are working on our M. I personally will not stay together just for the children. I believe you have to look at everything as a whole and what will benfit everyone. I came back to the marriage because of the children. They are a large part of the reason that I am still in the marriage. But they are not the only reason of course. I'm there now because I want a stable family . . . and I love my wife. I don't know if I could stay married for another 15 years just for the kids . . . if I felt no love for my spouse I don't think I could stay that long. Dont get me wrong I love my kids and they are a part of the marrage. Without them I would be lost. But if the marriage has failed that bad then why stay for ONLY the kids? Does make me wonder when ppl say they are still married only for the children Because it's easier justification...in some cases. (not saying all...just to clarify...before the twisting starts)
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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The CHILD. Clearly the child would feel burdened to know that absent their existence, a parent would be free to find happiness and not remain in a difficult marriage.
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I would like to ask anyone with a child, who is in the situation of "I'm doing it for the kid(s)" (don't take my quote out of context, please)...do you consider your child to be part of your marital union, of sorts?... edit : and, the child is part of your recovery process with your spouse? yes, introvert, imho, children are a part of the recovery process because adultery also affects them, as does repentence, forgiveness, and reconciliation. Children are not "immune" to the self-centeredness that is inherent in adultery. The "problem" is the the adults, not with the children. However, forgiveness and reconciliation, of "regrowing" love between husband and wife also teaches children a LOT about handling even the severest of marital problems. For the record, I had/have 4 children and they have been affected both by the affair and by our recovery.
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Dont get me wrong I love my kids and they are a part of the marrage. Without them I would be lost. But if the marriage has failed that bad then why stay for ONLY the kids? Does make me wonder when ppl say they are still married only for the children Because I can't think of a BETTER reason to try to fix a broken marriage than to provide a stable intact-household from which to raise children. Without the kids I think that many here would have just quit . . . because this stuff sucks and it no fun at all. And trying to put a broken marriage back together is one of the most emotionally draining things one can do. I think that trying to fix a marriage because there are children involved is just as valid as staying because you love your spouse. They are both fantastic reasons to try to repair your marriage.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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The CHILD. Clearly the child would feel burdened to know that absent their existence, a parent would be free to find happiness and not remain in a difficult marriage. But, this is under the assumption that the child is completely clueless to what is happening in the household. I think people need to start giving children a little more credit than that. My folks were pretty normal ,and I'd consider my childhood and upbringing pretty normal as well...and, I could see tension in my home a mile away, even when the folks thought they were hiding their problems from me. The kids know.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Children have an uncanny ability to blame themselves for their parents failures. Add to this additional burdens and the child will surely suffer.
Respectfully Introvert...and I have understood you on this thread...you really don't know what you don't know about raising children yet. That is not a criticism...it is an observation based on personal experience. You can't be expected to have this set of knowledge yet. Hopefully one day you will. Until then, I think it is fine to ask about parenting issues...but I am not sure you are in a position to speak with authority as to how things should be handled.
Thanks for starting this thread though. It is an interesting topic that I actually feel mostly aligned with your position.
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Poor attempts to hide problems and actively telloing a child that THEY are the reason for mom or dad not seeking out their own happiness are apples and oranges.
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Would you share with your child a sexual dysfunction between you and your wife?
With radical honesty in mind?
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I'm with Catperson regarding older children. My DS just turned 19 when we separated. He was not living at home (at college) but the news that we were splitting up upset him terribly. And yes, he immediately blamed himself. Just like me, a BS, he NEEDED the truth in order to remove some of the guilt he was feeling. I say "some" because I still believe there is a bit of guilt there though he knows everything that happened. Later-teens know enough about the world to understand adultery, and it's in their nature to attempt to be 'adult-like' and actively participate in repairing the damage. But they are still naive and haven't learned that real life is not Disney or Hollywood and happy endings don't always happen. How are they supposed to deal with all this if they don't know the truth?
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Dont get me wrong I love my kids and they are a part of the marrage. Without them I would be lost. But if the marriage has failed that bad then why stay for ONLY the kids? Does make me wonder when ppl say they are still married only for the children Without the kids I think that many here would have just quit . . . because this stuff sucks and it no fun at all. And trying to put a broken marriage back together is one of the most emotionally draining things one can do. I think that trying to fix a marriage because there are children involved is just as valid is staying because you love your spouse. They are both fantastic reasons to try to repair your marriage. This is the exact response I was looking for. How is a third party going to help aide in fixing a broken marriage when only 2 people caused the problems in the marriage?
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Children have an uncanny ability to blame themselves for their parents failures. Add to this additional burdens and the child will surely suffer.
Respectfully Introvert...and I have understood you on this thread...you really don't know what you don't know about raising children yet. That is not a criticism...it is an observation based on personal experience. You can't be expected to have this set of knowledge yet. Hopefully one day you will. Until then, I think it is fine to ask about parenting issues...but I am not sure you are in a position to speak with authority as to how things should be handled.
Thanks for starting this thread though. It is an interesting topic that I actually feel mostly aligned with your position.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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My decision to try to recover had absolutely nothing to do with the house, finances or the dog...and everything to do with the fact that I love my W...and, if we had children I would not use them as a reason any more than I would use the other examples of things that we are attached by...because we never had any of those things either when we fell in love...they are outside attachments...not a reason to love or forgive. JMO, but to each his own. And many Betrayed Spouses who are trying to recover their marriages also said at one point that their "position" was, "if you ever cheat on me, I am out of here and will divorce." But then reality hit. Just like it does when you have children who are far more important than all the "tangible THINGS" you cited. You might be surprised to find that children, unlike houses, money, or even animals, ARE affected by adultery and how the "adults" handle it, and the message that is sent to them about how much THEY are "valued" by the adults.
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