Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. We've agreed on something today !! Quick...someone call someone !!!! lol j/k


edit: There may be some underlying issues concerning children...from my POV. I will hit on it a bit in my "recovery" thread as to not dwell on it here. Maybe you can help me out over there?

Quick alert the media we agreed...LOL

lol...Larry King here we come.


I've updated my recovery thread...maybe you can have a look and lend your insight. Between this thread, and nosing around the "resentment" thread.....I had a revelation about something and could use some advice over there.

Anyone else with some insight I'd love to hear from you as well.

Thanks.

Are you gonna make me read another 18 page thread !

lol. Sumthin' tells me I ain't gunna make you do anythin' iam....lol.

I know this is long overdue (I have read this thread for the first time this morning) but I need to say this:

The above quote was very shocking and sad for me to read… I can’t imagine how a person can view a precious child on the same level (or same category) as a pet, house or finances…as an “outside attachment” or “third party”… unbelievable… I child is a GIFT and MIRACLE from God and if the child is biological, it’s the spouses own FLESH and BLOOD and a God-given “product” of the marital union. It’s a gift to both the parents and to the marriage and therefore an integral part of the parents and the marriage. It’s what parent do or fail to do after they have received this precious gift, that will determine how things will develop.

Introvert, I’m not yet a parent myself but a will be in 7 month’s time (after almost 12 years of infertility in our marriage). This is the MOST precious gift we’ve ever received, but with it will also come huge responsibility (and I’m thoroughly aware of that). A child need to be taken care of in so many ways…physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally etc…and it will NEVER be on the same level as responsibilities for a house, pet or whatever. Therefore the decision to divorce or not (as ANY other big decisions for that matter) must be taken in a much more serious light because those decisions will have a direct and life-altering impact on the child/children as well…and God will always keep us responsible for those children and the effect our choices/behavior have on them.

IMO divorce must be the last option e.g. after everything has been done to try and reconcile the parents and recover the M. Decisions must always be taken with the best interest of the children at heart and not for any other self-serving reasons. Obviously it’s in children’s best interest if the parents can reconcile/recover and grow up in a happy/recovered M with parents who love and respect each other, but if it’s not possible for whatever reason, a divorce might be the last resort in the children's best interest (depending on the situation). Sometimes one parent is totally dysfunctional and unwilling to change/seek help, and then separation/divorce might be the last resort in the children’s best interest. However, this is a decision that should always be the last resort and never taken lightly.

JMHO

This is a topic best explored on surviving divorce board as there are many people here thrust in to a divorce situation with children that they do not desire at this time....

and it's very painful here

I am no advocate for saving every marriage...

but I am also no advocate for dishonesty about the effects of divorce....

your line about knowing plenty of people who have divorced and remarried with children are just fine...is all part of the package that the divorce advocates want us to believe....

just google the effects of divorce on children...

and see the clinical studies that statistically show differently...
children of a divorce are much much statistically higher for lots of not so good things...

and if you wonder why the divorce rate is so hight...is because generationally divorce begets divorce begets divorce...it is a legacy being passed on and on...


fatal errors that are made is lots of support DURING the divorce...then nothing post divorce...

fatal errors we make are applying adult thought processes to children completely denying the natural stages of human developement....

fatal errors.... that happy parents make happy children...

also imagine telling an adult who is attempting to date/marry a divorced person that to have a relationship with their new found 'love'...they can only see them every wednesday night and every other weekend...oh yeah every other holiday

see how acceptable those restrictions would be to a grown up to establish and maintain a deep relationship with a partner...

yet we do it to children alllll the time..
go figure we just tie it up with a pretty bow and call them resilient....

my most favorite judgement in a divorce settlement from a wise judge..

children got the home...
parents got to split living there....
pretty good for the kids in maintaining all their known surroundings...

for the factual statistic effects of divorce ..just hit the google button...

ark

I am not comparing a child to a dog or house. I admit that the post sems that way, and I am guilty of wording it wrong, and probably leading people to believe that is what I meant, but as I have repeatedly stated...that was not my intention. Why do people here ignore the fact that I have repeatedly stated that my intention was not to make a comparison in the way you are claiming? I have stated it over and over...but nobody reads those posts...just the one in question. Why is that? It's like people have this uncanny ability to ignore my posts that repeatedly state this.....why?

To sum up what my intent in the original post...

It was meant to mean that I don't believe children should be the reason for wanting to stay in a marriage, because of the fact that a marriage is a bond between 2 people. And, IMO, ANY "thing" or "person" outside of those very 2 people should not be used (for the lack of a better word) in aiding those 2 people love each other and be happy again. This is exactly why people in an unhappy marriage shoud NOT have children...because it doesn't fix the problem. If saying "I'm just staying for the kids" was the be all end all of fixing marriages, then childless couples everywhere could just have kids to create a "bond", then presto....problem solved. Doesn't work that way.

If staying in it for the children eventually aides in solving your marriage problems, then kudos to you for making that work...and, I now know of some examples of that happening from people here. But, those seem like people that have their plans in action and goals of reconciling in mind. I think it's likely that the couples with children who made the decision to work on their marital problems...and succeeded, most likely would have succeeded even if they had not had children. I think it is just as likely that someone who says "I'm in it for the kids" is probably someone who does not have a plan of action to solve the marital problems, other than the "bond" that they feel the child has created with their spouse for them, and is most likely not going to succeed. JMO.

funny you say this. <y experience has been the complete opposite. The fact that my dad stayed with such a horrible person and did NOT divorce her has certainly contributed to the divorce plague touching 100% of their children. Nothing in my life would have meant more than to have my dad send that woman packing...BUT...he stayed for the kids sake.

Obviously children do best in a HAPPY home with both parents. Absent a happy home, they would be better off dealing with the divorce.

As for the statistics, there are an equal number of studies that say for the most part, divorced kids fare almost as well as not. And I strongly believe (and there is really no way to prove or disprove this) that it isn't the divorce that causes these kids problems...it is the carnage they had to witness BEFORE the proper decision to divorce was made. See, even if my dad had divorced my "mother"...the years of poor treatment by her still would have left their mark. And blindly any problems we had later on in life could be twisted/manipulated to have arisen as a result of the divorce...when it would have been the divorce that saved us from FURTHER problems.

In most cases, the people in the marriage ARE happy when they decide to have children. It's when they become unhappy later, like when one is having an affair, that the M falls apart.

There is a better word than "use". Nobody uses their children to recover their marriage. However, the existance of these children is a HUGE factor in the decision to attempt recovery. Responsibility and love for your children are motivation enough to die for. Many parents will choose to stay in a situation that is toxic to them but beneficial to their children - for their children's sake.

Once you have made the decision to stay, then it only makes sense to make the best of it. Perhaps it's the first step of "fake it til you make it". Or perhaps it's just a coping mechanism when you realize how many years you need to stay for your children's benefit. Either way, even if you absolutely HATE your WS, you will do everything you can to create a loving environment for your children. And since it's rarely that clear, chances are you do have an underlying desire to truly reconcile.

I have never said that divorces aren't hard on children. Why are you insinuating that I'm saying that? I have done research on divorce effects on children...I have "hit the google button" (thanks for the sincere advice...lol). Divorce sucks for everyone involved...you think I'm saying otherwise?

You've stated that you're not advocating saving every marriage...well so am I. That's one thing we can agree on, and why this thread was sarted. At no time did I ever say that divorce is the best option for all marriages...but it is for some...children or not. You just said it yourself.

Thanks for the google hint.

I would like to give my take on this statement. I don't think that it is as simple as "divorce begets divorce begets divorce etc...

Divorce is the "product" of an unhealthy marriage. The consideration of divorce is something that in essence people contimplate when they find themselves married to someone who they deem to be unhealthy for them. Divorce does not beget divorce.....making unwise choices to marry people that are wrong for you is something that happens inherently...that is what gets passed on. Children from all over from every generation will see there mother's married to a drunken, abusive father...but, then 10 years later marry a drunken abusive husband (just an example). That, I believe, is the legacy that needs to be broken. And, in that situation...and many, many others, "staying for the kids" is just doing all you can do to ensure that the kid will follow the same path of destruction.

yes, yes, yes...and frequently this is because of what is modeled at home...when the parents stay together for the kids.

I am ll for parents WORKING THROUGH their problems and staying together. BUT, if they find themselves unable to have a happy home...I say give the kids a break and get a divorce. BUT...put forth a BEST effort first.

medc that's definitely sad...

most likely if your dad had left....he would not have gotten custody of you so sending her packing back in those days..usually meant legally that the kids went with her as well...

his leaving may have put you guys on the front line of her

who knows...certainly not me...

lets face it there are those that take the effects of divorce on children lightly...

those most likely are not "here' on this site...

there are those that treat children like adults....
especially active WS who just believe the whole world revolves around them and their happiness....


I believe if you choose to stay till the kids are eighteen....ie staying for the kids.....
then you better not be staying with a crappy spouse...and better come up with a plan to make it a 'good' as it can be...
Or
realize you are staying because the alternative of exposing the kids one on one to a crappy spouse is much more dangerous than that of divorce.....

I don't see those things as copouts but as great acts of sacrifice....not to be taken a second longer once the kids are adults....

Also I am not sure that happiness in the most important factor...
it might be but I'm not sure about that..

I have know some happy drug addict raising kids...and the kids don't want them happy they want an adult in the home to guide them

I think the happiness issue....some of that's societial....

look at this fact ameirican women will state on surveys that they ....
married love like admire whatever the word you want to use in the survey....that they
value their spouses ability to make them laugh....

to some countries....
the ability to make one laugh is a very very foreign thought to be applied to a trait in a spouse.....
and is valueless......

that's a very American value....

so children being raised in a happy home...may not be as valueable as being raised in a stable consistant home...

with concrete rules, expectations, and consequences....children use boundaries to learn.....
and when those boundaries are not present or cloudy based on which parent they are with at the time..it does effect them..

chaos is the biggest detriment to children..

and you being in law have seen chaos in homes I am sure that make you want to weep.....

if you can minimize the chaos more importantly than inserting happy people ....
the outcome for the children is more favorable....perhaps...

I don't have the answers...,

I wish the laws were more favorable for what right for the children..........
stabiltiy wise.

ark

This is true but only partially. It is also a product of breaking your vows - for better or for worse and til death do us part. In cultures where divorce isn't allowed, couples are forced to figure out a solution to their problems. I'm not saying this is right either - there are circumstances where divorce IS the best solution - but I believe people do divorce more now because they have learned that this is how to solve marital problems. In essence, divorce does beget divorce.

Ark...I can say without any doubt...if he had divorced, we would have been with him. My mom would certainly have given up the custody for her freedom. That is why, after my dad passed four years ago that 3 out her 4 children no longer speak to her.

I agree with much of the rest of your post. I just thinkt hat along with every other "statistic" out there...both sides of this debate can make it appear any way they choose. I KNOW for me and mine, that we would have been better off being raised by a single dad than living in an unhealthy and unhappy enviroment. Divorce would have helped by removing the cancer at an earlier stage.


Me too!

No, they're not. While divorce may not be permitted...working together and finding solutions is not mandated. People live in fear, anguish, unhappiness year after year in these cases. There is no way to force a couple to find a resolution to their problems....even while you are forcing them to remain together. It would be great if they were forced to do this...but it just isn't possible.

Agree 100%

medc..

the studies that I do have faith in are the objective longitudal ones...\


most come from the bigger medical universities/children hospitals....
that have the resources and the laws of governing to do objective studies....

I have worked inpatient acute pscyh care for peds and adolescents.....
and have no doubt that their information gathering techniques are done to figure out how to best meet the needs of children and decrease the need for acute care....in the present and future

and best meet the needs of children in all settings....

it's my experience....

and you and I both know that while it is without a doubt a significant factor as to why this site exists...
people do very very bad choices in spouses in the first place...
ands then compound it by having children.....


but that horse is way way out of the barn by the time they get here.....

ark

This is EXACTLY why I was motivated to try to work things out with WW. THIS was my reason to be willing to forgive her and save our marriage.

I'm living the aftermath of not working it out and exactly what Mindshare is describing.

I spend a fraction of the time with my kids that I could spend if I had been able to make things work with exww. The kids themselves strongly desire and express their desire to have mom and dad together at their big events. My daughter last night wanted mom to join us at dad's birthday party for her brothers. Her 6 year old mind doesn't understand that there have been serious consequences to the divorce and that not all is well with the people she loves the deepest.

Seeing this is heartbreaking because her innocense is showing. Her mind says, "Why can't mommy come to my party at daddy's house? Why can't daddy hang out at mommy's house with grandma and grandpa?"

Kids are innocent and don't understand the reality grown ups live in. It's sad to see that innocense smack face first into the reality. Seeing those broken hearts in the people you love most in this world is motivation enough to endure any personal unhappiness for their sake.