I agree with all of this and especially:


It's not possible.

James,

Honey I am sorry things are this way for you right now. The little ones expressing their pain hurts the worst, doesn't it? I always say a little prayer, asking God for them to not remember that particular moment of pain -- even though I know it will be something I'll never forget.

Guys, this really got me to thinking -


Makes me stop and pause in my own shoes.

It's not that I disagree with the above. Nor am I arguing with the logic. However, I do have to say that another perspective of this is when you meet anyone,,,,they have a PAST. It may or not rival what you build with that person in the future. You may or may not ever know every detail of that past.

Granted, this situation isn't the same due to the existing marital history and the infidelity issue. Yet, I think in the right sitch, it can be overcome.

Or perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part. BUT, then how do any marriages overcome LTAs? I have to believe there is a way beyond this under the right circumstances with 2 people who are dedicated to recovery.

James, I am sorry to say that at this point in time, your WW isn't meeting that description. It doesn't mean she won't someday - but it is the way it is today.

That means what to you? It means that you carry on under present circumstances. You continue to be the best Dad you can for your kids. You do what is necessary to protect them and get the best possible results in the process in which you now find yourself.

I hope I'm not rambling too much here,,,,

{{{JAMES}}}

GC and Chris.. I agree a lot with what you said about the intimacies of the relationships.

Looking at what Bugs said here though did get me to thinking.

I clearly remember saying to FIL one day towards the beginning of all of this when the pain was still very raw and my emotions and fears were pretty much still driving the ship.

I did have this piece of clarity though, which I still think is valid.

WW and I both had children before we came together.. we both had pasts.. and none of that mattered.

It's been said time and again here by some of the recovered folk, and even some that are still hopeful that part of a successful recovery is acknowledging that the prior relationship IS dead, destroyed, and gone.. nothing can get THAT relationship back.. and even if you could you wouldn't want it because THAT relationship was vulnerable to an A..

So in the context of building a new relationship with my W.. if the opportunity does come around, and W goes through the changes that will need to happen in her life to make her a suitable partner for me again, it will be a starting over.. this time with the blinders off.. our history together and the history of the A will need to be discussed in the same light that one might speak of past relationships and lessons learned with a new partner, and treated the same way.. But the key part of that is that the lessons are learned and applied to this 'new' relationship.

Is WW capable of doing that? I honestly think she is.. but she has yet to go through the changes, and yet to learn the lessons that would make her the RIGHT person to risk entering into that relationship with. It's her going through the changes and learning from them that I don't have a lot of confidence in.

Bugsy.. I -think- this is a little better articulated with what a lot of people are saying on your thread.. just examined from a bit of a different angle.

James...this is really just kidding oneself. A past relationship does not include the assault and rape of your family. It is a discussion of something that ended....with good reason. Your wife...no matter what changes she makes...will always be the person that has forever changed your child's life for the worse....and that bell can never be "un-rung." She will forever be the woman that shacked up with a boy toy for almost a year now.

Honestly, IMO, it is time to let this go. You should have enough self respect that even if she wanted to come back now, you would NEVER be in a relationship with someone that could have done that to her children.

She is a horrible mother...one of, if not the worst I have seen on these boards. Your story from the other day was heart wrenching and I feel for your son. She has been a bad mom for a lot of years...and not just with your child..but with her daughter as well.

That story of your boy just breaks the heart. Poor little thing.

I don't know what to say in regards to the conversation going on here right now. I think I see both sides of it.

This isn't a decision you need to come to right now. As she is, right this very moment, she is not worthy.

If/when she ever becomes worthy, you can THEN make a decision.

Don't wrap yourself up too much about what you would or wouldn't do when someone does or doesn't do something.

Live today and let the rest come as it will.

((((Jamesus and DS))))


Fox

I have to wonder if we aren't perhaps putting too much emphasis right now on the fact that I still love my wife.

GC makes a good point that I do need to think about and consider, but I think it.. along with Bugsy's sitch has kind of gotten us derailed a bit from where this thread and my focus needs to be going.

Not that I blame Bugsy one bit for adding what she did, it was important and necessary for me to think about in my reasonings and my own thoughts for doing things.. plus I'm sure it did her some good to articulate it there as well... so fair play to all concerned.

MEDC, I'll say this, otherwise you and I will probably go rounds on occasion with this for as long as I still have love and a desire for my wife. It's been made clear your feelings about my WW, and the weight you place on the value of vows, and spiritual covenant of marriage are divergent enough from my own that we're simply going to have to agree to disagree on this rather than putting another .22 slug into the dead horse here, and go another round with eachother. We're not going to agree on whether or not it's OK, or past time, or unthinkable for me to still love my wife despite her waywardness and selfishness.. it's not your choice to make either way my friend, and while I appreciate your views, please don't be offended if from here on out, on this particular subject and future rants on how my wife is the most horrible person you've ever heard of, that there is no reply. To put your Father's Rights bent at ease though, the side conversations about still carrying a torch for my wife aren't going to stop me in the slightest from going to the tac-nukes to get my son, who I am very aware has been in this situation for almost a year..

Foxy.. you're absolutely right, I don't have to come to a decision on this now. Honestly, it's going to take being in the same position Bugsy is in right now for this to even become an issue. If it gets there before I move on.. I'll deal with it then.. if I've already moved on.. I'll wave at that bridge as I pass by, but won't be going across.

James, I agree...it is a fruitless exercise for us. I will say though..it is NOT a Father's Right issue at all. I would be saying the same thing to you if you were a BW...it is about parental rights and responsibilities to protect their children against ALL harms...far and NEAR.

James,

I have to say I think MEDC gives you one really really important thing and because of the other items you haven't used his knowledge as well as you probably can.

He is probably the best resource here to help you get your son.

I'll be the first to agree with this.

However I think MEDC and I have come to an understanding that on issues concerning the best strategy to take to get my son.. I have, in the last several months at least.. been paying attention.

I'm taking the parts that work for me and using them, I'm discussing most if not all of these options with my lawyer who is very intimately familiar with the system and the judges in this district.. We're building our strategy from there using the best of local knowledge, and MEDC (and Mr. W's) wisdom to give us the best shot possible.. I'm trying to do the best I can for my little man here guys.. believe me.

Nothing.. and I mean NOTHING at this point is more important to me.

J...hope you're doing okay.

- Sushi

Good morning,

Looks like you and I will be doing the same thing this weekend.

Specifically Sunday?

James,

Just popped over to look for that update???

Hope you are doing well, my friend.

Let us know what's happening when you can.

Hey there Sushi.. thank you for checking in on me.

On a personal level I'm doing pretty good on most fronts. This month has probably been the easiest one in the last year, largely because I've spent the vast majority of it with DS at home with me. We've had the last 3 weekends together along with the entire week from the 11th to the 20th, and I've only had to go 2 days at a stretch without seeing him since the 9th.

There's also the fact that on the exchanges, I've barely even looked in WW's direction, much less engaged her.. and while it really pulls at the heart, and it's very sad for DS, I think that his protests at leaving my house every time she's picked him up this month are something that she NEEDS to hear. She probably thinks that I've put him up to it, in her twisted wayward thinking, but nothing could be further from the truth.. and it does on some level make me feel good to know that DS WANTS to be here with me.. I know he wants WW and DSD here too, and that's the real sad part, but I'm not dwelling on it too much, because that's not my choice to make.

This past weekend was another race weekend in the racing capital of the world.. and despite the tire fiasco most of you who follow that sort of thing have probably seen on the news, this past Saturday with the kids was an absolutely amazing one. We went to the practice sessions at the big track during the afternoon, and then went to the Nationwide race just down the road in the late afternoon/evening. The kids had a ball and our seats were nothing short of incredible for the race.. just down the front stretch about 30 yards from the start/finish line and 6 rows up off the track. DS was the 'darling' of our section and DD ate up some of the attention too.. it didn't hurt that the kids picked their favorite driver early in the day and he struggled early and went 4 laps down, but mounted a heroic challenge towards the end.. made the race just that much more enjoyable for the kids, even though their guy didn't win. Just another lesson for my kids that it ain't over till it's over, and if you give up too soon, you'll never get the chance to finish on the lead lap.

It's kinda ironic when you think about the fact that DS at 4, and DD at 13 can grasp this concept.. but a highly intelligent 28 year old woman is oblivious.

The great day wasn't entirely free of drama though.. WW called during the practice sessions at the big track and left a VM, and I texted her that we were at the NASCAR practice and that I'd have DS call her back between sessions. Yeah, probably a little more info than she needed, but what's done is done. I dialed the number and waited until she picked up while we were on our way to the short track for the evening race, and DS went on for a minute or so about all the fun he was having and the neat stuff he got to see. Then he said 'I'm busy having fun with my dad.. so I just want to say I love you, bye.' Typically at this point he just hangs up the phone but this time he handed it to me and said 'Mommy said bye, but she wants to talk to you.'

Ok... so I ask what's up and she starts in on this story about how the other day she and the kids were in the car.. blah blah blah blah.. I just let her go on.. but finally she got to the point she wanted to get to.. '.. and then I turned and saw DS giving DSD the middle finger. He says you taught him to do that.' Well.. I didn't even bother to hide the incredulousness I felt.. basically said 'I don't teach him those kinds of things and you know it.. nobody I have around DS would either. I'll talk to him about it.. is that all you wanted to say?.. Ok then, bye.'

Ugh.. so here I am.. having a WONDERFUL time with DS and DD.. nary a thought of the Ice Queen circulating in my head.. and bam.. I'm not triggered.. I'm not sad.. I'm PISSED.. first, I'm pissed because she'd even accuse me of that crap.. then I'm pissed because it's not the first time she's pulled this stunt about something DS does in her presence that she doesn't like.. and says to her that I taught him to do it.. if I had a dime for all the bad $hit that SHE is teaching our children I'd be out of debt for sure!.. Why can't she just deal with this kind of thing the way I do and explain to DS that regardless of what is OK at mommy's house, daddy won't stand for this kind of behavior and to cut it out.. DS is a GOOD KID.. and he listens and does what he's told.. knows his boundaries, and if Dad won't stand for it, it's not cool to do.. I don't call and nag her about it... UGH!!!! STUPID WAYWARDS!!... and then it hits me.. what I'm REALLY PISSED about.. is that if SHE hadn't made this stupid, selfish, narcisistic choice.. she'd KNOW what goes on when DS is with me because he'd be with her too and I wouldn't have to bother with this tripe..

God... waywards are stupid.. make the stupid stop.

Waywards are stupid and try to remember, hurt people, hurt people.

James,

Need I refer you to my sig line?

Momma always says, "You can't fix Stupid!"

And boy oh boy, waywards can be so darn stupid. Do you know that 'stupid' is not a word that is allowed in my house? Nope. I don't let the kids use it.

This is some of the stupidist stuff comes from the wayward mouth.(is that a 'real word? please promise not to tell my kids I used it )

AND

That is some of the hardest stuff to let go. Stupid stuff HURTS too. AND it makes us sooo MAD!!

Yet, you handled it so well. You didn't go on and on 'defending' yourself. You stated the truth and ended the stupid conversation.

She was likely just pi$$ed because DS was having (and has been having) such a great time with you. Do you think that was the FIRST time she's felt second best to you? Heck no. I'm sure DS talks all of the time about how great you are, how much fun you all have together. DS put her in her place by giving her the quick, "Hi Mom. Love you. Gotta go". I've heard Ladybug do it tons of times to Drac. She's also done it TO me at various times she's been with Drac. It hurts the parent on the receiving end.

Yet, she's too "Stoop-ID" to recognize it's her own fault and to see that she's set up the conditions for it all. Instead, she takes the opportunity to lash out at you. Do you find it ironic that this also comes after getting such a cold shoulder from you recently? Yep, she needed to poke you with that stick.

You took the jab and keep your feet moving. Perfect tactic.

You came here and vented it.

James, you are doing wonderful. You are taking great care of your kids and they adore you. She knows it. She sees it. She's jealous of it. But, you aren't doing it for her. You are doing it for them. That's the only thing that counts.

Now, what's in store for the week?

This reminds me of when my granddaughter was just a toddler. Her mom would bring her over to spend the night. When her mom would get ready to leave my GD would start throwing a fit, "I want my mommy!" Mommy would come back in the house and get her and take her to the car and GD would start throwing a fit, "I want my grandma!" Daughter would bring her back in and she'd do the same thing again. It was comical, but what she was really saying is that she wanted us all together. She wanted to spend the night with grandma but she wanted her mom here too. She just didn't know how to express it. I'm betting your son feels the same way at times. He wants his dad, he wants his mom, but he wants all of you together. That's really tough on a kid.


No telling where he learned this but you handled it perfectly. She KNEW you didn't teach him that but rather than calling her son on it, she accuses you. Sheesh.

Yep. Waywards are stooopid.

On DS's next weekend visit with ice queen:

James calls in the middle of the afternoon. He chats with DS for a moment about what he's doing. Then asks to speak to mommy for a moment.

James: Last weekend DD and DS were blah blah blah. And then DS told DD that it was OK to cheat on your husband. He said you taught him that. Is that true?

IceQueen: uuhhhhh.

LOL, ain't that the truth!

OMG, LMFAO!!!!

Carefull...

Were getting to close to the truth with that one.