It's gotten so that, lately, whenever my W tries to start a major fight over a minor issue (something like eating more than my share of the pizza in the fridge, for example), I shift it onto the subject of her affair. The reason I do this is because, frankly, it seems to shut her up. Nothing I've done (or haven't done) that she wants to criticize me for can hold a candle to this. However, this didn't work the other night, maybe because I went a little too far.<P>Usually, I just repeat the story of seeing her in the OM's car with him and let it go at that. No blaming, no accusations, just what I saw. However, the other night I did start in about how she'd broken our marriage vows, etc., etc. - quite a ways beyond just what I saw. She was really ripped this time and it became the sort of simmering anger that she sometimes holds onto. Then she let it all out last night while we were in the kitchen making dinner together. She even yelled and screamed at me and called me bad names for having said what I said about her breaking our marriage vows. She also called me "delusional." (Great psychiatric term if you want to define someone as crazy, huh?) Now she's making noises about leaving again, though she did come to bed with me and I held her a long time as we were going to sleep and then again when we woke up this morning.<P>I was wondering if anyone else has had this kind of experience with a betrayer that they've confronted? Not only denials from the betrayer, but ANGRY, indignant denials? To me this suggests guilt. I know if she started telling me she suspected me of an affair, I'd just laugh. I wouldn't feel affronted, because I know I'm not having one. And if you really DO think the person is crazy - if you know they really couldn't have seen you with an OP - why get so upset?<P>I'm also wondering if anyone out there, M or F, is at pretty much the same stage I am. You've confronted your cheating spouse with your knowledge of their affair and they've reacted the way my W did, with anger and denials. And I'm wondering who all have gone THROUGH this stage and come out on the other side with a spouse who's finally owned up to their affair? Does this crap never END!!??<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Wexwill,<P>My wife admitted to "having feelings" for OM. <P>When I asked probing questions I was met with angry, indignant denials (along with evasions, half-truths, and bold-faced lies)<P>When I discovered her chat file which revealed the true nature of their relationship I was met with anger and bitterness at her lack of privacy.<P>When I emailed the OM and asked him to leave my wife alone I was met with angry accusations that I was trying to control her whole life.<P>The angry denials are just a red herring to throw us off the trail and raise the stakes for asking the questions.

I, too, had ANGRY denials from H. I was a crazy f****** B**** who didn't have anything else to do but make s*** up. There were some physical blows once when we had both been drinking and the next week he asked where they came from. Asked him if he remembered, and he "couldn't believe I would make something like that up". I think she's hiding something. He was.<P>

Just like you, I was and am still faced with angry denials (6 weeks after confrontation) . One night we had a dish throwing, war of the roses kind of thing, where he became unontrollable. Tried to choke me (but decided to let go, that's why I am writing here today...he decided not to kill me and then go to jail for it)...it was soooooh crazy. I too believe that his continued denials and lies are because he is guilty and I am making him feel more guilty each day...I am driving him to the edge......why should I be the only one who is slowly becoming insane because of all this. Its also unbelievable to me how they can deny things right to your face when there is evidence (even if circumstantial ...in my case.., in your case you saw with your own eyes and she still denies,I just can't believe it)...I just don't know how much longer I can take his lies...I hate liars...<BR>Have a good evening and a good weekend.

Read my thread and I can tell you all about denials. I got local phone records that showed my wife had spoken with her male friend for an average of 2 hours a day for 7 months. At least on days that I was not home. She says they are just friends even though everything in my logical minds tells me BS.<P>I told her that if I spent that much time on the phone that I was sleeping with that person. Hands down. So what have I done over the last three months since I have found this out? I too have come after her hard on these issues along with challanging her to prove that I am wrong. I have also spoken to OM and told him the samething. Both either are very good liars or are telling the truth. Therein lies the confussion for us.<P>So let's put ourselves in their shoes. Why would you tell? What value is in it for you? Why give your spouse that power to have this hanging over your head forever. Man that is really big. So over the last couple of months I have began to back off. Be nice try to get her to trust you. Has not worked for me yet but I am trying. I go back and forth between being nice and just pissed off becasue something is not right. I don't know what to say other then it is a long dark road. Read all this stuff on here and you will see a very common trend and that is in most cases there always is someone else.

Wex,<BR> The King of Denials went into major temper tantrums whenever I brought up the subject of his cheating.<BR> I have been told:<P>"You must have gotten the disease from whoever else you've been screwing."<P>"You're f***ing crazy."<P>"Well, now I've been accused of doing something I didn't do; I may as well do it."<P>"By G__, I'm tired of this s***!"<P>"I haven't done a G__d___ thing, and I'm sick of being accused of it!"<P>There was plenty more that he's said, but that's all I can think of right now. And, oh yeah, he would also hug up to me in bed afterwards.<P>Now, Wex, you need to stop lovebusting over stuff. If you eat the last piece of pizza, sweetly apologize and offer to go get another pizza. Better yet, before you eat the last piece of pizza, ask her if she wants it or wants to share it with you.<P>Don't bring up the affair when she's already angry. The last incident we had, not long before I "ran away from home," he had gotten mad because I was crying (I thought quietly) after we went to bed. We had a big fight, and I was crying and hollering (lovebusting big-time). Anyway, I told him that even if nothing sexual happened, if he was spending time with another woman, talking, having drinks, etc., it was still an affair. He snapped back, even more defensively, "No, it isn't!" At that point, I thought to myself, "BINGO!" I immediately calmed down, and stayed calm while I told him, "Yes, it is. Any relationship you have with another woman which doesn't include me or is kept secret from me is an affair. I <B>know</B> that you've cheated on me sexually, because you <B>did</B> give me that STD, and the only way <B>you</B> could get it is by screwing another woman. You may or may not have actually screwed "Cafe Woman," but I'm quite sure that something happened between you because you pay entirely too much inappropriate attention to her. I do not want you to go to her restaurant when she is there or be anywhere around her unless I'm with you. I do not want you to talk to her unless I can hear you. I do not mind your going to her restaurant and having breakfast or coffee with your friends, as long as she is not there." The guilt on his face was so obvious, and he did not say another word. I then went to bed. I woke up the next morning with his arms around me.<P>So, Wex, don't get into screaming matches with her. Bite your tongue and be totally reasonable and cooperative about whatever she's ticked off about. Don't bring up her affair unless you can deal with it fairly calmly. It took me over a year to be able to do that. Of course, when I "ran away," H thought I had gone around the bend, but actually, I did exactly what I had planned on doing if he stepped over the boundaries that I had set up. That I threw a hissy fit beforehand was not a bad thing either, because he <B>needed</B> to see how angry I was. He needed to see that I had reached the limit of my tolerance.<P>Cool it, Wex. Distance yourself a bit from your wife. OK to hold her and be affectionate with her when she's willing, but treat her as politely as you would treat a guest in your home. Heck! Disappear for a few hours every now and then! Let <B>her</B> wonder! <BR>

Ok, Wex,<BR>I have had enough of this [censored] footin around. If it is true, let the truth be told!<BR>Gimme your phone number.<BR>I'm gonna call her!<BR>If it is not true she needs to know what to do to appease you and in no uncertain terms she should know that this IS HER MAJOR PRIORITY in LIFE.<BR>I mean it.<BR>She obviously needs some outside imput!<P>Ok,<BR>so you won't let me call her.<BR>But, why not?<BR>What could it hurt?<P>Well, ok.<BR>If that is your final decision, then I quess I will just have to live with it and keep my opinions to myself!<P>Hope you really know where I am coming from!<P>I really will talk to her, if you think it would make a difference.....Don't know why you would think I could make a difference, but what could it hurt!!!!!<P>Anyway, know that I feel for you...<P>Beth

Wex,<P>The best defense is a good offense! She jumps angrily all over you to get you to back down. Ever see someone get caught shoplifting? First thing they do is start yelling and carrying on. It sometimes works.<P>You need to be very calm about it around her and it'll really get to her. She'll probably get pissed off at you 'cause you don't get upset back and maybe she'll slip & say someting.<P>Just an idea<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

I think you had better quit bringing that up right soon, or you are going to be single before you can say "oops". If you want to talk to her about the affair then say what you have to say in that context and drop it. She will respond if and when she is ready and you can't force her to be ready any quicker.<P>This bringing up the affair when the discussion is "pizza" is ungentlemanly. It's rude, passive-aggressive, and abusive. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject she is talking about. It looks like a dirty underhanded way to get power over her every time there is an argument. If she is upset about the pizza, you had better listen to what it is she is trying to talk about. Dumping on her about unrelated issues is going to make you a statistic. I don't care if she did cheat on you, if you want to rebuild your marriage you had better start respecting her right to have an opinion, even if you don't like it. The affair doesn't have anything to do with supper.<P>To phrase it generally now: the fact that he/she had an affair does not give you free license to be cruel until they have "paid" for it in your mind.<P>Whew. That was harsh. Please accept my apologies. I hope I wasn't too cruel. <BR>

Thanks everyone - Many of your responses are at least somewhat comforting in that they've convinced me I'm not crazy, and that the kind of angry response my W is giving me is fairly typical of betrayers when confronted with their affairs. Big whew!<P>Zip - Our situations are very similar. I read your thread from start to finish and was amazed by this (I'll reply to it later tonight, after I get home). The only differences are that you know OM's identity and my W and I do not have small children. Yes, it was exactly her distancing that first tipped me off and made me suspicious. And it took a lot more before I actually started snooping on her. I was very, very reluctant and waited months after I saw her in OM's car before confronting her with this. Agree with you that betrayers have no real motive to tell us the truth, especially if they want to stay in their affairs AND the marriage (like my W seems to do). Also, one reason I was so reluctant to confront was that I KNEW she's deny it and I knew it would make her angry as hell. But after all, I'm glad I did. At least it got the issue out into the open.<P>Beth - Thanks for the offer. I mean it. I actually considered taking you up on it, but then (you're right) did think better of it. If I thought it would help, I would. I mean, anything at this point. But knowing my W, I think it would just make things worse to be talked to like this. She is not the type to take advice from strangers kindly. I know because a while back, I actually sent her a couple of fake emails purporting to be from a woman who knew her but whom she didn't know (W is fairly well known in her field) telling her she knew about her affair and advising her to give it up. My W WAS tweaked by this but never admitted anything. I DO wish our counselor would say some of the things to her that you're suggesting though.<P>nonplused - Actually the pizza argument wasn't the one that led into me telling her she'd broken her vows. I forget what started that one. The pizza argument was last night and it was what STARTED the fight, even though I did apologize for that. I think you're right in a sense that it's not fair to bring up her affair when she's expressing other concerns, which I should listen to. But last night, SHE was the one who brought it up when she was standing there in the kitchen screaming and yelling at me.<P>Chris - Yeah, I've tried to stay calm. And,usually, like I say, have managed just to stick to the fact that I saw her in OM's car. That's pretty effective, because I did actually see her and now she knows that. But sometimes I DO get a little carried away by the sheer craziness of it all!<P>sweetpea - The kinds of things your H said are EXACTLY the kinds of things my W says. Now I KNOW I'm not crazy and there's a very strong probability that her reaction is an indication of the truth that she is having an affair. I will try and chill and remain calm.<P>Janie - Ditto. It's good to have this kind of confirmation. Your H sounds like a world-class denier, just like my W. Sometimes, she ALMOST manages to convince me that I'm wrong, but then I think about what I know and what I've seen....<P>sadforever - Double ditto. And yeah, that's the crazy-making thing about it. To have her call me delusional when I KNOW what I saw. It was in the middle of the day and I was not hallucinating. It was HER with HIM and none other. I know what I saw.<P>2sad - Thanks for your story too. It's also very similar to mine in terms of your W's reaction to being confronted, and that does help.<P>R & B,<P>--Wex<P>

Hey Wex - <P>Never a dull moment in your house is there?<P>I got lies when I would ask where she had been. When I finally confronted concerning the affair I got truth. I'm getting deceit now that she is reinitiating contact with OM to be "just friends". <P>I think a greater number of betrayers confess when confronted because guilt and shame are all ready doing a number on their mind. Confessing relieves the hurt for them. <P>Wex, i take you to the bottom of page 58 in "The Monogamy Myth" (I hope I can quote this without getting in trouble). "When the denial includes an attack on the person asking the questions, especially when it includes trying to make them think they're crazy for being suspicious, it's more likley that the suspicions are true. A harsh respons may be an attempt to bring any additional questioning to a halt. When someone isn't trying to hide something, they are more likely to respond in a calm (pehaps even comforting and reassuring ) way." Hmmmmmm, sounds like your situation to the last detail. <P>Have you tried asking her in a way that would reassure her that eventhough you know about the affair that you believe you both can work this out? Maybe she's afraid of saying yes?<P>Hang in there and share your pizza.<P>SHA

Sha,<BR>Your quote from the monogomy myth - ha.... cracked me up. <BR>In my case, they said it very mildly!<BR>My H is plotting to put me in a mental institution! How's that for a good defense!<BR>LOL

Hi Wex,<P>Now ya KNOW that the name of the betraying game is denial... that's the way it's done. And it makes sense too that it's angry, because, after all, she's been "caught" red-handed in it. (I wonder where that saying originated??)<P>Remember, this was her choice, and she's gonna pull out the big guns to make you feel crazy and nutso. <P>BTW, it does suggest guilt. I KNOW, unfortunately. Both my H and I used all the same tactics and it is truly embarrassing to think about now. How stupid do we think we are? <P>God...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

SHA - Wow, buddy. That quote from "The Monogamy Myth" made my day, man. I don't know how to thank you for that. That is so perfectly on target. That is EXACTLY it, exactly what she's doing. I've got that book somewhere in my mess of a basement library, I think. If I can't find it, I'll order it from Amazon.com. That is the first thing I've read that really describes my situation to a T.<P>And you know what ? I think my W is trying to do exactly that, "bring any additional questioning to a halt." Well, she ain't gunna. I do mean to keep zinging her with the fact that I saw her with OM. It's hard to resist her trying to lay this "you're crazy" trip on me, because she's an extremely forceful woman, let me tell you. Hard to resist not believing her denials, especially when our couples counselor sides with her and thinks I'm making this up. But I'm not. I saw what I saw and I know what I saw!<P>I've been following your posts too, and know you're really going through hell now. Hope things are looking up a little. Keep us posted. Regards, blessings and, again, many, many thanks!<P>--Wex

M4B & Sheryl - Your support is SO great! I think by now I WOULD be institutionalized if not for this forum and responses like yours!<P>M4B - I am off and on tapping my W's office phones. One call I recorded was with her personal therapist. She told him about the original email I sent her describing how I'd seen her in OM's car with him. He asked her, "Is this true?' She replied, "No. Absolutely not." HE said, "Then he's psychotic." Wbat can I say? This made it clear to me that she's using her personal therapy only to validate her viewpoint, that I'm what's wrong with our relatiosnhip because, basically, I'm crazy. And the shmuck is buying into this crap on her part. I thought therapists were supposed to be trained to spot this and avoid playing into patient's game like this! She's also trying to use our couples counseling only to validate her viewpoint, with a fair amount of success. What hope is there? I'll tell you. We CANNOT let them DEFINE us as crazy, otherwise we'll start believing it ourselves. I just refuse to do this. Sounds like you've been there, done that too. Let's not any more.<P>Sheryl - What a beautiful response. You are so great! Yeah, I think "big guns" is the word. She's haulin' 'em out, definitely. Last night was major major for this. Blast away. Scream and yell. Intimidate the poor [censored] into shutting up about her affair. But I ain't gunna. Maybe I'll retreat for a couple of weeks, make her think I've bought into her "you're crazy" routine. Then come back. And you kno? The problem with having someone lay this kind of thing on you (as we used to say) is just that we start believing it ourselves. If somebody like a couple counselor chimes in his agreement, well.... But I DO refuse to accept that I'm crazy. This is what I'm working on now. I saw her with him and I know what I saw. Ever and always this refrain until they believe me.<P>--Wex

Hi, Wex: Geez, if I had a dollar for every time my H threatened to have me committed last year, I'd be sitting here now, dictating this response to my personal secretary! Let's not forget how many times he offered to take me to a psychiatrist, so that when they told me that I was crazy, he could leave me, without feeling any guilt.<BR>The saddest thing about all of that, was at times, I really did question myself. Again, just another tactic on his part!<P>The really big one, was ehen he told me to call our daughters-in-law (not our sons, mind you) and tell them that he had not had an affair. So, with H sitting beside me, I called the two of them, and repeated the same spiel to the both of them. "Hi, it's Mom. Dad told me to call you to say that he didn't have an affair. Bye!" DUH!! That seemed to make him happy, but within the hour, both of the DILs called me back, to ask me what the hell was all that about? They had pictured in their minds, my H sitting beside me, with his gun to my head! The whole context of my conversation had gone right over his head. <P>One more thing I forgot to mention about the "crazy" thing. I told my H that he had better be careful when he took me to the psychiatrist, as, if he had read anything at all about mental illness, he would know that the first sign of someone being "crazy" is when they deny that they are "crazy." I pointed out to him that my mental health must be in great shape, as I had wondered for many months previously, when he was being such an [censored], if I was crazy for suspecting him of having an affair. After that, he never mentioned again about my trip to the "funny farm."<P>The worst one he ever pulled, was telling my DIL with tears in his eyes, that he knew that I had brain tumors (not one mind you, but multiple) and that was what causing my suspicions. So, DIL asked him if he had cheated on me. He turned to her, asked heer to look into his eyes, and tell him what she saw. Her answer? "I see a liar, and if I were Mom, I'd kick your sorry [censored] out the front door!" "Nuff said!<P>Geez! Just checked my typing. Guess I shouldn't have had that last beer. <P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

M4B - I think we should start a "crazies" club, huh? Yeah, my friend, do not let them do that to you. In most states, you CAN'T be institutionalized without your consent unless you're completely disfunctional (and if we were we wouldn't be writing these posts now, would we?) And calling a spouse crazy when they accuse you of cheating is one more twist of the knife. But I am firmly committed to not being committed & hope you are too. And don't worry. My typing suffers too after a few rounds with the Comrade.<P>R & B,<P>--Wex<P>why me - Reading posts like yours and M4B's (and others who have similar stories too) reassures me a lot. Thank you for that. Until I got responses like yours on this thread, I WAS starting to wonder about myself. Hmmmm, maybe I DID hallucinate seeing W with OM.... NOT! I do not have a history of hallucinations. On the subject of your H, I can only say he richly deserved the put-downs from your DIL. I sometimes wish something like that would happen to my W. After what she's put me through, she deserves to have her affair exposed in the most embarassing possible way, I think, like the Annette Bening character in "American Beauty."<P> <P>

Wex<P>I've followed your posts for some time and I'm glad you're listening to SHA, but don't forget the second part of his advice.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you tried asking her in a way that would reassure her that eventhough you know about the affair that you believe you both can work this out? Maybe she's afraid of saying yes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think because of the pressure you've put on her she may be afraid to tell you the truth.<P>On another point with the counselor i think you need to give the C examples of your W's irrational behavior, consistent with someone having an affair, specific lies etc. As Mrs M4B implies if your C doesn't have the same understanding of infidel's as we do here you're beating a dead horse. Patience, the truth will come out.

My ex used to accuse me of stuff for years when I was totally faithful. I'd never even thought of another man, much less had an affair. Still, this BS went on and on because of his insecurities. When I met the OM and actually did start having feelings, it meant that there was no way I could tell my H (cause then he'd be "vindicated" for all those years of harassment). The OM was nice to me, didn't yell and scream at me like my H. My H's screaming fits started long, long before I met the OM and I had many times told him how afraid I was of him and how much it hurt me. After awhile, I figured my H was never going to trust me anyway, and he'd always said that if I ever had feelings for another man, we should get a divorce. Soooo the next line in my reasoning was "heck, might as well just do what I want cause if I tell him I have feelings for someone else, then we're getting a divorce anyway". I don't think your accusations are going to get you anywhere. It will only drive her farther away. If you really think she is having an affair, you have proof, she won't confess and you can't trust her then your choice is to either let it go or get a divorce. <P>When I was totally faithful, I'd get very angry too. I got sick of his accusations. His screaming was louder than mine, and I got sick of screaming,so I'd just shut up or start crying. Then he'd stop. FINALLY! Don't do this to your wife. You can't force her to confess, and if she is being faithful you are totally ruining whatever feelings she has left for you.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 17, 1999).]

TS - I'm not making up imaginary accusations like your H. I really did see my W in car with OM, and then saw her get out of it and into her car. I will say that, until then, it didn't really hit home to me that she really IS having an affair. I'd been suspicious before, even to the point of virtual certainty, but this was something else. I have tried to restrain myself and not make accusations. And, in fact, I still don't do it this most of the time. I've also told her that I'm still here for her and even if she is having an affair I want to stay married and make our marriage work. So although on the surface I may sound a bit like your H, the fact is that my W is having an affair and that makes all the difference. I think our couples counselor thinks I'm like your H, but the guys a.... well, I won't say what he is because it will just be ***** out!<P>awoken - Actually, I have tried to reassure my W that, even if she is having an affair (this is how I put it after one of her denials) I'm still there for her, as I told TS. When she starts making "this isn't working" noises, I tell that I certainly don't want to split and want to make our marriage work. My sincere hope is that, yes, eventually the truth WILL come out. Also, part of the reason she's reluctant to confess, I think, is that in a previous relationship, when she did confess to a one-ngiht stand, her partner never let her forget it. I do try in various ways to let her know that her having an affair is not the end of the world and not the end of our marriage. I love her anyway, hell, I'm still completely nuts about her (which I told her over dinner at a favorite restaurant tonight) despite her affair. That's what's so crazy-making about it. I can't talk myself out of being in love with her though Lord knows I've tried!<P>--Wex<BR>