I haven't been here for a month or so due to an exhausting work load and just other various reasons. Some of you may remember me, if not oh well. Anyway, things were going well, as good as I could have hoped for them to be for a little while. Over the last 2 weeks or so things have all gone back down hill. I am not sure why but here are the little parts that I do know.

I have not brought up the A one single time in the last 2 months or so. I have however thought about it at least once a day and when I say thought about it, I mean I dwell on it and the pain is still just about as overwhelming as it was when I first found out about it. My solution is to close my eyes and repeat to my self the words "get out of my head" over and over and over until I either fall asleep or forget about it.

Therapy has been good and bad. We have been seeing a good therapist once a week for almost 2 months now. I try not to talk but he backs me into a corner and forces it out of me. We refer to the A as the "big elephant in the room" as if to say the A is a big mess that we try to avoid dwelling on or something. I'm not really sure what I think about that. I kind of wish the therapist would force her to call it an A so we could all be on the same page but I guess ultimately, it is what it is and a title doesn't really matter. Everything else being so eff'd up makes it matter more than it should.

My WW has made attempts to be intimate with me but for every time that she tries there are 3 or 4 times that she avoids it. I am to the point where I think it is less painful to just go without than it is to have to deal with the rejection.

I can't live up to the OM, at least not in my head. WW still probably sees him as a nice guy who just went too far too quickly and sees me as a nice guy buried underneath a monster. To be completely honest, that may be more the way I see it than the way she does.

I mentioned that I haven't brought up the A in several months. That is true but when I get into those times when I can't make myself stop thinking about it I become very irritable. We get into fights almost everyday now about nothing. It's always a misunderstanding. She thinks I am pissed off for no reason or vice versa. It turns into a screaming match and everyone loses.

I just wish for a day I could have a relationship with her like what she had with the OM. I want to be her best friend and I want her to long to be with me and look forward to making love to me and just be happy to be in my company. Instead I feel like everyday, we fight just a little bit more and everyday we drift just a bit farther apart.

I wish I had no sexual needs at all. I do enjoy giving her affection but when she is not even coming close to fulfilling my needs I feel empty inside. When I feel empty inside I find it hard to do anything at all much less give her affection 24 hours a day.

I am pretty much convinced that she is going to end up leaving me again. She always talks about how she has no control over her life now. The way I see it she had no control when we were separated.

So yeah, things are all falling apart again. It's just like it was before we got separated only now, on top of everything else, I have a highlight real playing in the back of my mind of her doing nasty things with OM. Everything seems completely hopeless right now.

p.s. things are not always bad, we do have lots of good times in between the bad ones but this last 2 weeks have been hell and the A has been bothering me more than it usually does for some reason.

Your WW did not have a great relationship with OM. It was a relationship built in fantasyland where there are no real pressures of life. When reality hit, is when the A ended. So quit comparing yourself to that. What you have with your W may be tough, but it is REAL.

It sounds like you need to still be talking about the A. That is not LB if you are careful not to dwell or DJ. You can talk about YOUR feelings. "I statements" work well. "I am feeling..." "I feel...when you..." Your WW may not like to hear you talk about it, but it is part of being open and honest.

You are SO EARLY in recovery. I think you are expecting too much of yourself (and of your W). An A is a MAJOR TRAUMA. You cannot expect to feel ok about it in just a few months. You also cannot expect your W to be completely through withdrawals or to be reconnected with you at this point. It may not seem fair, but she has to get through her emotions too.

It is not called a roller coaster ride for nothing. You're just in one of the low spots. Keep holding on.

HTM

Lefty,

Good to see you posting, but you shouldn't wait a month to do it. Get your frustrations and irritability out here. Not at your wife.

""I try not to talk but he backs me into a corner and forces it out of me""

This is what a good therapist should do. This is when you SHOULD talk about the A. That is what you both are there for, correct?

Do the 180 and don't talk about the A in your day to day, but when you are at therapy, that is what the guy is there for, to help you and your wife to communicate with EACH OTHER hopefully.

Maybe the reason he is not confronting your W is that YOU are the one that needs to talk it out. Maybe get a dialog going with your W while you are there. The therapist should be controlling the conversation and directing it to get the most from you both.

I would suggest letting it all out in the sessions. This way your W will get the full meaning of what she has done and how deeply it is affected you.

Does the therapist give you both "projects" to practice during the week and then report back at the next meeting?

""when I say thought about it, I mean I dwell on it and the pain is still just about as overwhelming as it was when I first found out about it.""

THE PA WAS 4 MONTHS AGO!!! NC WAS 3 MONTHS AGO!! This is a very short time span. Your wounds have not started to heal yet. You are just now coming out of shock and more feelings are being felt. The anger and resentment are now taking hold. All perfectly normal.

""I can't make myself stop thinking about it I become very irritable. We get into fights almost everyday now about nothing""

BRING THIS UP AT THERAPY!!

You are in the stage which is b!*ched about more by the BSs than any other. The early plan A recovery - be as nice as you can, even though you are dying inside, while the WS is in withdrawal from OM and immersed in guilt and depressed and not seeming to work at recovery and YOU/WE must put up the happy front and keep it going and not give in to LBs and fill that love bank to overflowing!!...all with a smile on our face and a song in our heart.

That's the way it is!!! You will just have to SUCK IT UP! As your WW completes withdrawal and comes back to her senses she will see you as the strong rock that kept this thing together and love you more than ever.

THIS ROLLER COASTER IS A MARATHON NOT A SPRINT!! Grit your teeth and take it day by day.

Use that therapist to get it all out in the therapy sessions. Maybe go see him once or twice by yourself and lay it out to him. If he is good, he will strive to help you.

Take care of yourself. Work out, eat right, lay off the sauce, try to get enough sleep. Smile all the time and put a spring in your step. Even though you don't feel that way, your wife will notice, and at least wonder what you are up to.

Watch out for that work load. The additional stress from that will not help the relationship at all.

If possible you should post here more to vent and get it off your chest. There are many good people here who want to help you. Let them.

That's all I got.

kirk

Thanks,

I do have a tendency to carry the weight of the world on my shoulder.

There are times when out of nowhere she tells me she is sorry she hurt me so badly and she sometimes talks about how she did "really dumb" things.

It helps a lot but sometimes I just want to let it all out. How could you do this to me, to us? Was I such a bad husband that only a month after I was gone you were f**king some other dude.

Problem is that I can't find a tactful, non-insulting way to say all of that. Other times I just want to start crying. But for some reason when I am around her it feels like there are no tears left to cry. I have never been one to let people see me cry but it sure would feel good to let her see what she has done to me.

I do still need to talk about the affair but I have learned that no matter what I try I can't talk to her about it without her getting pissed off.

I feel like if I could just talk to her about how I am still hurting so deeply I wouldn't be so irritable and we might not fight nearly as much.

I am not sure what you mean by projects so i guess he hasn't been giving them to us. What kind of projects?

Our MC would say, like, OK for the next week I want you to both sit down and list your 5 biggest emotional needs, discuss them and then bring them in next week to discuss. (this is a fictional account because I really don't remember exactly)

OR I want you both to agree right now that:

When you start fighting and arguing and either one of you sees it getting out of control either one can say "lets terminate this discussion right now" and the other must agree to not say another word, separate, go to your separate corners and cool off and not bring it up again.

OR During the next week, when discussing a topic always use "I feel that..."

Things like that. Things that you both could do to stimulate communication.

This therapist is pro-marriage? You both like him?

Again, in your second post you had these things that you wanted to say. Isn't in therapy the best place to say them? Isn't that why the therapist is "backing you into the corner"? to get them out of you. What better place to get them out.

Then he turns to your wife and says "now how does that make you feel"? or something like that.

The therapist also acts like a referee and controls the tone and emotion of the dialog.

kirk

Your WW may not enjoy talking about the A, but that is part of the recovery process for you. Your biggest job with regard to talking about the A is that you make sure you are stating YOUR feelings and not attacking her (even though it's normal to want to).

A conversation about the A might go like this:

H: I feel like I still need to talk about the hurt I'm feeling from your A.

W: Don't bring THAT up again. I know I did something wrong, but how many times can I say I'm sorry (just guessing)?

H: I don't need you to apologize, but I do need to talk about MY feelings. I am trying to process this. You are my best friend and I need to talk. I am not asking for anything but an ear to listen and understand.

Keep reminding her that you are not trying to make her feel bad, but that you need to talk about it still. If she tries to instigate a fight...use "I statements" to defuse it. She cannot argue with how YOU feel...only when you project something on to her.

She may not like it, but this is part of the cost SHE has incurred with her A (although that's probably not the best thing to bring up with her).

HTM

The other thing I wonder is if you are REALLY getting 15+ hours in of fun time together. That is PARAMOUNT to helping you reconnect with your WW. Conversations about the A should be somewhat limited...but an overwhelming amount of your time together should be POSITIVE (meeting each other's top 5 ENs).

HTM

The therapist is definitely pro marriage. He has given us suggestions similar to what you mentioned. I think we both like him, he is way better than the one we had before who just made excuses for my wife over and over again.

15 hours is hard to come by. We do spend that much time together but all my wife ever wants to do is watch movies so we end up starring at the TV for 2 hours every night not really talking much at all. I have suggested playing board games and some other things but it seems like we always end up watching movies. She will go on walks with me but it has been nearly 100 degrees outside for the last month. One problem is that I work 8-5 and she works 11-8 so by the time she gets home it is late and after we eat dinner and watch a movie I am ready for bed. She usually stays up watching TV for a few hours after I am asleep.

I do try very hard to spend all of my time meeting her needs but I often fail miserably due to the pain I feel inside.

L2W,

If recovery is what you want, be prepared for it to be mostly 1 sided for awhile. This seems to be universal with the wayward spouse. They had to totally reprogram their minds to justify their A, so they are totally worthless in the cognitive and selfless areas for awhile. It takes time but under the right circumstances it does get better.

You need to be strong during recovery. You need to have a large inner reserve to tap into because you could go for long periods of time between contributions to your Love Bank.

As for your feelings, you will have them whether you talk to her about them or not. I found a safe confidant and used that person to dump my feelings on instead of my W. Instead I spent our time focusing on good, positive things. I never brought up the A. If I had any questions, I saved them until she brought it up. She would bring it up in some fashion about every 2-3 days in the first weeks. I made it a point never to ask any questions about the PA part of things. I don't need to know that. I don't need my mind filled with that.

You need to ask yourself what your recovery will be. Is it a relationship where you have the moral high ground and she is always the unfaithful one? I have seen some here like that and it makes me sick. Or are you going to have a relationship of equals? Gear your actions and words towards her based on that.

you should have just continued your other thread.

Your wife has manipulated you so badly that I fear there is little hope for your recovery until you stop falling for her stuff.

You were married for 13 months before she asked you to leave. Trust me...her affair was most likely going on for a while before this. Consider that with no kids and a short marriage that you might be better off throwing this fish back.

If you decide to remain married, the job situation will need to change. Your marriage comes before anything else.

this is flat out manipulation and control on her part. Reach into your panst and fish around....those two things down there are your key to handling this properly. Right now she is pushing you around and she will not respect you one bit if you let her do that.

Stand up and be counted.

update....


Things have gone from bad to worse. Here is what I have done to make things better or worse.

I have angry outbursts, lots of them. I didn't even realize it was happening until 2 weeks ago when I threw my chair across the room when I thought my wife was sleeping. I was pissed off because my mother who was on the other side of the planet for vacation called me at 5 in the morning to have me go pay her rent for her. It was just a bad day after that. We bickered all day long and I was acting a fool because I was so upset about every little thing that was not going my way. I was cursing up a storm and throwing out judgments all day. The end was when we were in the car and I was pissed off about another random stupid thing and I inadvertently shook the wheel. I was not paying attention to my driving and my hand slipped. We veared off into the next lane on the highway. It scarred the [censored] out of my wife. She thought I had done it on purpose. She cried for the next 20 minutes.

As I was driving the rest of the way to our destination it hit me what an [censored] I was being. I realized how my anger had almost killed us. It really wasn't that bad but it could have been much worse if there had been cars around. So I went and read about anger management. I screwed up a few more times over the next 2 days but after that I have been calm and peaceful. I think I had an actual epiphany.

So over the last 7 days or so I have been very calm and we actually have not bickered much at all. I think the damage is done though. I tried several times to take her someplace fun but everywhere we go she just looks like she is going to cry. When I asked her about it she just says that she is scarred of me. That's understandable and I have apologized over and over again. I start my own individual counseling tomorrow. I made the decision to not be like that anymore and I am willing to control my anger and not take it out on her. I want to provide a safe haven for her and it kills me inside to know that she is afraid in her own home because of my angry outbursts. She definitely has her issues but I can't take control of them. I can only be responsible for my own actions.

She now is saying that it is just like it was before we got separated. She is scarred all of the time and she does not feel close to me at all. I don't really blame her for that but she has blocked me out of her life again. I keep trying to show her that I can change and I realize it has only been 7 days with out an outburst but I feel like I can't prove to her that I get it now if she won't let me in.

I'm not necessarily looking for advice or guidance or anything. I just need to vent as I am worried that she is going to leave again and all of the hardship I have been through since she left the first time will have been for nothing. I don't particularly want to start over twice in one year.

Hi LTW,

That's wonderful that you had this epiphany! It sounds like it was really life-changing, and that you are now doing all the right things.

I had a thought about how your W might be feeling now, how I would feel if I were her, that might explain why your recent changes don't seem to be helping right away. She may be saying that she's scared of you, but... it strikes me that she must feel somewhat safe, to be able to tell you that. It may be that you are now providing a safe enough atmosphere that she can now be honest about how bad she feels. If that's the case, things may seem to get worse before they get better.

It's all good though, your efforts ARE making improvements. Her confiding in you could actually be a good experience for her, bonding even, especially if you continue to respond in a safe manner no matter what she says.

Thanks Jayne,

Any encouragement is helpful. In some ways I think you may be right in that she is telling me how she feels. I have done surprisingly well at remaining cool and just trying to reassure her that I mean what I am saying. But on the other side of the coin, she has now been sneaking around behind my back on the internet. She is staying up late and every time I get tied up in another room she runs to the PC to chat with this friend of hers. She hasn't told him of our problems other than that she is not doing so well and the rest of the conversations seem innocent enough but she was not doing this before. It has only been a few very short conversations but it really is killing me that she is hiding it from me as this was how her internet affair started with the OM. Granted, she has been internet chat buddies with this guy for quite some time and he has never done anything inappropriate, I am still getting very paranoid about this behavior. If she would do it in clear sight and not just when I leave the house to pick up a pizza she asked me to order it would not bother me nearly as much.

It is so hard to know that I have to at all costs keep my cool and act like nothing is wrong but to know that this is going on. I feel as though I am bracing myself for the major hurdle in my life. She promised me that she would never turn to anyone outside of our relationship for emotional needs again and at this point the conversations are very generic in nature but I feel betrayed by this. I have gone without my EN's for over a month now through all of this yet I must find the strength carry on.

Left,

Let me get this straight, you say you love your W yet...

1. You continually have angry outbursts.

2. You will NOT talk about the A in counseling nor how you feel.

3. You somehow expect your W to be a mindreader.

4. Some of this behavior was a carry over from before her A.

5. You and she argue all of the time.

6. Even a call from your mother to pay something for you sets you off.

Do I have this right?

Look at this list and explain to me why your W would want to be married to you. Explain to me who else would put up with this behavior. Would you put up with this sort of behavior from your children ( I know you don't have any), friends, or simply strangers? I doubt it.

You are NOT justified in this behavior and frankly you should not be married.

I know you are going to say "But, JL she cheated on me." Yup, that is right. So YOU have decisions to make. You can leave the marriage (there is a strong case for that), you can stay in the marriage (there is a strong case for that), or you can pee in the chilli and ruin the whole darned thing. You seem to have selected door number 3.

As you sit there sipping from your Hemlock, how do you feel?

Left, it is time you made decision; abuse, almost causing a traffic accident, arguing, not engaging in counseling are not decisions nor are they useful for anything.

Decide if you want to really remain in this marriage. If not, get out while you retain some of the high ground. Once you become a full time abuser, and you seem to be going that way (no matter the cause) you will be lableled as an abuser and then SHE may in fact leave you.

You have choices address the anger (anger management classes sound good to me), then make YOUR decision. If it is to leave, most here will support that. If it is to stay you will also obtain support. But what ever you do, stop the AO's, stop the abuse, start talking and being honest.

Frankly, your inability or unwillingness to express what you want and feel to your W and the counselor, leaves you just as dishonest as your W. She thinks you want to save this marriage, the data would suggest you do not.

Figure it out, make a plan, and execute the plan. There are NO painless ways out of this mess.

God Bless,

JL

JL, harsh words but none that I cannot agree with. Everything you said is true and makes perfect sense.

We both have anger management problems and for so long we have fueled each others fires. I said before I can't fix her but I can work on myself. I start IC tonight and will stick with it at all costs whether or not she decides to leave or not. It is something I should have done long ago.

I do talk about it in counseling. I am just not sure what else I can say about it. She is the one who won't talk about it. I have brought it up and she walked out. She can't bare the guilt of it all I think so I try not to push the subject anymore.

I don't expect her to read my mind. There are times when I have not shown that but overall I have tried to keep her in the know as far as my feelings go. She is the one who changes her opinions and feelings on almost an hourly basis.

Yes, all of this behavior is carry over from before the A but the thing is that for the last 3 months before she asked me to leave, before the EA had even began she had blocked me out of her life. She is doing it again and I have largely contributed to her doing this. I know that and I am taking it very seriously and doing what I need to do to protect her and everyone else from me.

We do argue a lot and it is stupid because at the end of the day she is what matters most to me.

My mother is an angel and she did not deserve that any more than my wife deserved to hear it.

I have taken just as much abuse from her as she has from me. The difference is that I am a big strong scary man while she is a defenseless delicate woman. I accept that one of us has to take the initiative and I will take it even if it means that I have to accept any abuse she throws at me until she realizes that I am not doing it anymore.

Actually no, I am not going to say "but JL she cheated on me" I do not blame anything for my actions but myself and my inability to take control of myself. I have tried for so long to take control of everything else in the world that hurt me and I realize after a long talk with mum that these other things can't hurt me nearly as bad if I am in control of myself. I won't be a victim anymore and I won't treat anyone the way I have in the past.

Your judgments on me are justified to an extent but I already have made the decisions you are telling me to make. I can pour my guts out to her and all it does is infuriate her. Screaming and crying about how she can't take the guilt anymore. I am just trying to be heard by the person I call my best friend. What else can I say that I haven't already said to her about the pain she has caused. She knows I am hurting but she chooses not to lend me a comforting hand. I want to and have tried to talk peacefully about my feelings, she does not hear it. I am not always a monster as I think you believe that I am. She turns everything I say into "you hate me, and want to punish me" Would you have me continue to tell her about it under these conditions. My wife is manic and bipolar. You can judge my actions but please do not belittle my efforts as they are the only things holding us together sometimes.



edit: Maybe I should mention that my wife does not see what she did as an affair or at least she tells me that so she can somehow justify that I have no reason to be upset. She reminds me that I was not the first person she was with but it didn't bother me when we first met so why should this bother me. She is still clouded with fog about the reality of what happened. She will not accept that there was ever an EA because she will not accept that an EA even exists. It is so backwards because she gets upset if I so much as look at another woman. I don't check other women out, I don't flirt with other women and I certainly don't forge meaningful relationships with other women. I never have and never will so long as I am in a serious relationship.