It is said that children model their parents behavior in regard to relationships.

MIM,

Do you really want your children to be in a relationship like the one you have? What they see at home they will consider the norm. You are teaching your children it is OK to bust your butt to make things work, accept less than they deserve and that it is OK for your spouse not respect you or your feelings. (JMO)

LC

MIM, do you think your unnatural fear of "bramble-bushes" has contributed to this sad state of non-recovery?

I have taken care of many bramble bushes on our property. Only I did not dance with any of them. I cut them out at the root and pulled them into a big pile. I probably should not say what I did next. But I would never recommend dancing with bramble bushes.

IMO, what Mel said above is the key. I suspect Docp was much like Mel when it came to conditions. He made it VERY clear I had used my one and only chance. He told me he was not going to sit back and allow me to walk all over him nor was he going to police and monitor me. He drew the line very clearly in the sand and it was and still is up to me to not cross it. I know the consequences, they are plain and simple. He was not going to "babysit" me and my actions, period. It is 100% up to me to follow the path or not.

I still remember he was very calm and very matter-of-fact. It was not told to me in a mean way at all. I knew without a doubt he was serious.

I know had I thought for a second Docp wasn't really serious about his conditions I would have "forgotten" to tell him things that I knew would be upsetting to him.

I also believe a big difference is a person's perception of "following the rules". When I first read My Rev's post on your W's thread about what FogFree does to ease his worries when she travels I thought that whole thing could have been taken the wrong way.

Early after my A I would have jumped on and posted to him, "Holy Cow, how short is that leash you have her on?" Now that I "get it" I know it is FF doing this stuff to ease his mind so they can recover. My guess is she is keeping tabs on herself.

MIM, It makes me wonder which way your W viewed MyRev's post? You might want to ask her.

I also suspect this is a sticky point for many in recovery. A BS doesn't want to push the (F)WS away so they just settle for things they shouldn't, IMO anyway.

BS should not be afraid to make their boundaries very clear and expect they be honored. What I have seen here a few times is it sure seems the BS's who are afraid to set the boundaries are the ones to really get walked all over. (JMO)

LC

Beats me. If she's trying to get me to buy it, I'm certainly not taking her up on that offer. The amount of deviousness that she got up to during that time indicates that there was quite a lot of intent involved. It was also quite clear the OM was a lot more interested in his fiancee and she was only something on the side (and only one of those somethings on the side) while his fiancee was away. She was basically one of his [censored]-buddies. this was no "true-love" romance. After D-Day, she referred to it as a "distraction". Yet even then she schemed and schemed and did what she could to ensure that I was never aware of what was going on. No incriminating e-mail. Use of other chat programs. Nothing that could point back to a possible A. Someone does not do all of that unless they want to make absolutely sure that they're not discovered.

To be honest, I'm tired of talking about that period. I can't remember when last we actually talked about her A, in fact. If she doesn't want to come to terms with what she did and what she became during that time, I can't force her to do so.

That is exactly right. This is how you have chosen to live and apparently it works for you.

Yep, I definitely qualify as a "poster-child" for that scenario at the moment, even though I really would prefer that wasn't the case. In fact, I am actually one of those who recommends to new unmarried posters here to walk away instead of sticking it out and eventually marrying a cheating partner. Perhaps I needed someone to tell me that back then. Unfortunately, the only person I confided in at the time didn't step up to the plate and give me the 2x4 that I probably required at the time.

Unfortunately, that is then, and this is now, and I have to make the best of my given situation. At the moment, hard as it may be, I prefer to be M'd to her, rather than D'd from her, if only to ensure that our children have someone that I can trust (ME) giving them proper guidance in their lives.



I've set my boundaries. My FWW is aware of them. And when she crosses them, I let her know.



That's an option that I'm not considering as of this moment.



Quite possibly. Running away from this situation though is not going to improve it. There's more than just my FWW and I involved.



If we separate, it's likely that they will take on the worse characteristics of my FWW and her family (my MIL is a real piece of work in the morality dept.). Have a read of the stats with respect to children of D's?

Our M was in trouble, but just before the A, she actually indicated that she thought it was getting better. I was trying the only ways I knew back then to make things better. No, I wasn't involved in any illegal activity or heavy porn use at any time. I think my biggest "fix" at any time in our M might have been online gaming, which I used to spend hours doing at one point, but for me it was an escape from my reality. I'd actually stopped spending so much hours gaming at least a year or so before her A.

Our problems started from early on, according to her. We're both quite headstrong, and differed quite a bit on quite a few things, including important ones like how to bring up the children, etc. She had a "my way or the highway" approach, and quite a few times after we argued and argued, I gave up in frustration and let her do what she wanted to do, without taking part. She saw that as abdicating my responsibility, which I guess it was. I believe that played a good part in her losing respect for me.

I also tend to be a long-term planner/visionary, while she is the type to only cross bridges when she comes to them, sometimes at the very, very last moment. For example, she says that she didn't think about her vows or the effect on me when she started the A. I think it's more likely she simply shelved those thoughts until such time that she really had to face them, i.e. if I ever found out.

We were also brought up very, very differently. I was brought up in the traditional dad-is-the-provider, mum-takes-care-of-the-household family, and it showed up in how I approached our marriage. I think her background was similar too. However, in my case my father had a large role in instilling concepts of right and wrong in me, to the point of me being very unwilling to do anything that I know to be wrong, even if it's assured that I can get away with it. In her case however, I don't believe her dad played such a role in her life, and her mum, the real piece of work I referred to earlier, is not only very controlling, but has a sense of right and wrong that seems to be only measured by what she has to gain personally from any decision made. I can't help but feel that a lot of that rubbed off on her children (e.g. my FWW and her sisters) - only recently my MIL asked them to do something very wrong, and their response was along the lines of no, they wouldn't do it, because they would not get away with it. I would have responded, no, I wouldn't do it, because it is wrong - period.

MiM,

Forgive me for not remembering - but did you two do telephone counseling with the Harley's? Go to one of the weekends?

If not, would you consider one or both?

You two sound like you need professional help. Reading the books without having a neutral sounding board to tell you you're full of chit (thinking of Tangled here) will get you nowhere.

No, it's not. I believe she does not consider me "immediate family". I believe that for her, "immediate family" consists of her father and mother, her siblings and her children.

I got a good dose of that when she informed me one day a few years ago (pre-A) that she'd added her parents as signatories on her accounts, just in case something might happen to her - she wanted to ensure that a close relative could get access to those finances if necessary. I asked if she'd considered me when she was thinking about that, and she answered along the lines of "not really, it was a family thing".

I was flabbergasted.

And she has done nothing to correct the situation.

I'm sorry you've resigned yourself to a life of pain and misery with the misguided notion that it's 'for the children'.

Your children would have been better off with at least one good role model. Namely, a strong man to look up to. Regardless of where he lived.

Don't fool yourself. You're not in recovery, you're in Limbo.

I'm truly sorry for your situation. How can you read and post here so long and not 'get it'?

They are 11 and 8. Wonderful girls, except when they're poking each others' buttons . They're great at poking FWW's buttons too, but they're not experienced enough yet for that to work on me .

No - I'd like them to find a relationship with someone who's as committed to them as they are to that person, through thick and thin. Someone who sticks around through the good times AND the bad times.



I think that's preferable to giving them the impression that it's better to simply break up and walk away when things are no going so great. When I took my vows, I didn't attach any such conditions to them.

Mel, if I was afraid of the bramble-bush, I wouldn't have so many scars to show, now would I? In fact, I think I'm a lot more willing to engage it now than before - perhaps that's one of those things that "Tangled" is unhappy about. Where I used to remain silent before - that's no longer the modus operandi.

Dodging the thorns is still a technique that I'm learning to master. But I do know that running headlong into them doesn't work... .

LOL - but I *like* this particular bush. I'd prefer to have it around. I just have to find a way to coexist peacefully with it...

You're not teaching them this. You're teaching them that it's OK to abuse and/or be abused by your spouse.




Actually, it's waaaaaay worse. My kids see parents who attend MC every week. They've learned that instead of walking away you WORK. It doesn't happen without the WORKWORKWORK!!!

Where we are, counseling is not an option. The MB weekends are not held in this part of the world, and the type of counseling we'd likely need will probably bankrupt us, even if we do it over the phone.



I'm hoping that "Tangled" continues to take part here, even with all the 2x4s she's collecting in her thread. Maybe something will sink through. Maybe she'll realize that the reason things are so difficult is because she's NOT putting her M at the top of her priorities. Maybe she'll realize that doing something, even if it involves leaving the M, is better than just reacting. Just be prepared for the bramble-bush to strike back - it doesn't like to be attacked.

I haven't "resigned" myself to anything. I'm still here fighting to make our M better.



Certainly. And it would be even better if I do live with them, which is still my goal.

How am I doing that? I don't think they're even aware of their mother's "history". And I certainly don't allow my FWW to "abuse" me, particularly in front of them. Well, not usually. There have been cases where they've witnessed some emotional abuse (shouting, etc.). But I try to keep that to a minimum.

What I think I do need to do is find some way to talk to them about what we're going through, so they're not confused. That I'm not sure how to do (though I am sure that if I make any such attempt on my own, I will be accused by my FWW of "biasing them against her", etc.)



MC is NOT an option where we are. We have to use different tools to "work" on our M.

I have just replied to her about this. I believe it's the single biggest factor contributing to both her affairs and her lack of judgement as to where your boundaries are. You, as her husband, are her next of kin. You are the closest relative she has. This is recognized by all religions as well as the state - it is not something up for religious or philisophical debate. Her failure to see you as her immediate family essential means she's not seeing you as a husband. She's seeing you as a roommate who provided sperm donations to produce your children and now works to provide for them - as if you do this out of duty rather than love. So of course it's easy to cross boundaries and even to cheat. She doesn't see the boundaries because she doesn't even consider you guys to be "married" in the true sense of the word.

Marriage isn't simply a license to have SF and produce children, it's the formation of a new family - YOUR family, at the center of which is you and your wife!

I don't mean to hurt you with these words MIM, because I highly respect you and truly hope you can work this out. I just see this as extremely serious and I hope you can find a way to discuss this with her so she can understand. I'm not sure if she's still reading her thread or not.