ok, do you need a therapist to fix your issues? It seems to me like the main issue here is honesty. MC is usually pretty much a waste of time. Most MC don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage.

What did you think of Andrews suggestion to write the letter?

I agree with the letter but I dont feel the same about MC there's gotta be some benefits to seeing a counselor

Yes, there is a benefit....to his POCKET BOOK.

Marriage counseling has the HIGHEST FAILURE RATE of any of the counseling disciplines at 84% failure. They have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They are not pro-marriage and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages.

If you went to one with your wife right now, I have no doubt that he would try to get you used to the idea of a DIVORCE and strive to faciliate an amicable divorce, RATHER THAN figure out what the real problem is and work to fix it.

therapy is cute and all, but just not very effective in problem solving. It more often causes more problems than it cures.

So then how do you reconcile a marriage. The couple does it on their own? We tried that and we didnt get very far during those two years. She stayed bottled up thinking that was the answer and I let her. Williard Harley is a marriage counselor?

Most people DO recover their marriages without marriage counseling. MC is largely a FAILURE. But Dr. Harley's program is extremely successful. You can do it out of the books or you can pay for marriage coaching at MB. We on the forum have recovered our marriages and know the program and can help you too.

The reason you didn't get very far is because of your dishonesty. Your marriage is not recovered for the very reasons I gave you. I am not a counselor but people here figured it out. The reason is that it is impossible to recover a marriage when one member is dishonest. It is impossible to recover a marriage when one has no remorse for an affair.

We can help you recover your marriage using Dr. Harleys principles if it can even be saved. MB also has marriage coaching that goes for about $185 an hour and that is very effective.

But there is not much to do until you can attract your wife back.

So you dont believe that her keeping everything bottled up didnt play a small part in our lack communication. So after the letter what would be the next move

I disagree with Mel. There are some really good MCs. MC helped us with our communication and listening to each other and helped save our marriage. We had MC first and I found this site afterwards. My H liked the articles on this site and the questionnaires. We saw MC for about four months. The MC felt Dr. Phil's book Relationship Rescue was a good start for us because the first chapter focused on the individual. I like the first three chapters because it was about understanding yourself. You can get right with someone else until you're right with yourself. Some people don't believe it but I stronly believe this to be true.

What do you mean exactly by lack of communication? I think dishonesty probably played a huge part in that, don't you?

Yes I understand about the dishonesty, can we moved past the part and also look at the other issues in the marriage. Everytime I bring up another issue in the marriage you revert back to the dishonesty, and yes I am aware of the importance of that. Harley expresses alot about communication in the marriage, that went missing during those two years.

John - Mel keeps bringing it up because it is the single most important thing - it has caused you to get to the point where you are today.

First things first.

If you think you can weasel around being honest by deflecting onto other "issues" like communication you are mistaken. Nothing will improve until you take that first step.

Dr Harley's plan is pretty simple - he doesn't focus on "individual" counselling and digging into all your past because he believes that is a waste of time. Dr Harley focuses on modifying your BEHAVIOUR NOW.

His basic concepts are as follows:

1. 15 hours a week of undivided attention.
2. Being the source of your partners greatest happiness (meeting EN's)
3. Not being the source of your partners greatest unhappiness (avoiding LB's)
4. Openness and Honesty.

There's a lot of great material on this site about those things.

You won't find much about communication though.

NO. Why would we talk about the peeling paint in the girls bathroom when the Titantic is sinking? Your dishonesty has about destroyed your marriage, and until it is seriously addressed there is no other 'issue" to address.

Talking about "communication problems" when you have been ABUSING your wife for several years with adultery and then 2 years of LYING is a silly diversion. I don't think you GET what is going on here, John.

It is not your "communication issues" that has caused your wife to get sick and tired of your crap. So no, if you want to waste your time blabbing about completely irrelevent issues, be my guest. But I won't waste any time on someone who spinning his wheels with nonsense.

I agreed with her that I should write my wife a letter telling her everything about the affair that I didnt tell her. So we shouldnt discuss anything else until that happens?

So you're telling me that if I had been upfront with everything in the affair, she wouldnt of tried to resolve it herself over the last 2 yrs?

I'm not spinning my wheels, I'm trying understand the aspects of all of my mistakes. You can't tell me that was the only mistake I made. I understand it was the biggest but it cant be the only one.

I'm sure it isn't the only one - but it is the one that made the biggest impact.

WHEN are you going to act and tell her? What is your TIMEFRAME for writing and giving her that letter?

See I KNOW you - you're a lot like me - you want this FIXED right now dammit. I'm very sorry but it doesn't work like that. You can't see the end from the beginning here. You must take one step after another, one foot in front of the other.

You want to know all the steps - but the steps will be guided by what happens after you have taken the previous step.

See! Saying it like that makes so much sense to me,and your right I want to try to fix it right now. I try to tell myself that this is a marathon and not a sprint, but sometimes I feel that the window opportunity is closing and I do have to sprint. I'm scared that the longer she doesnt have much interaction with me as far as talking then she will forget about me and the good things we did have in our relationship. Then I tell myself that she cant forget 9 yrs that quickly and I have to calm myself down. I havent really established a time frame, andrew brought up the idea today. I want to make sure its the right time though, I dont want to screw this up again.

it IS the right time. Duh.

WHAT?? You mean there is MORE? There is something WORSE here than adultery and lying? What would that be?

Ok then. Melody and andrew would like me to post it so that they can proof it and make sure I dont mess this up.

I'm talking about the other things that she mentioned that made her leave, the lack of emotion, not meeting ther emotional needs, making her feel like she had to walk on egg shells around me.