Divorce

We owe all the wonderful aspects of modern marriage to one thing: divorce.

You will hear just the opposite, of course. Religious fundamentalists and politicians will tell you that divorce is crumbling our society, ruining children's lives, and weakening the moral character of the nation. Don't listen to them. They know perfectly well why divorce is a good thing, they just don't want you to ever find out.

Divorce means choice. Divorce means that two people do not have to remain bound to each other until the grave, as society dictated until the 20th century. Divorce means that human beings can determine the path their life will take. And at its very root, divorce provides for that most crucial, most valuable of human experiences: happiness.

[b][/b]Divorce is also the great equalizer, and the hallmark of a truly advanced society in terms of women's rights. No woman can ever claim to feel "like property" or "subjugated by men" where are there are equitable divorce laws in place. When we look back at ancient civilizations, the ones that stand out are the ones like ancient Egypt which provided equitable treatment for women and the accessibility of divorce as a way to end a legal marriage. Even in the modern world, the best countries for women are those that allow them to divorce freely and without social stigma.

But the freedom to live your life how you please, without affecting how others live theirs, is something that a great number of people don't want you to have. Religions in particular seem devoted to making sure that you don't live how you please, that your every action is analysed and criticized and ultimately judged. Whether it's a stern and moralistic God or a harsh and judgmental society you claim as your higher power, be aware that both of them have one central belief at their core: personal happiness is bad, and personal choice is worse.


Well, what do you think? This GARBAGE comes from some sorry excuse for a website called, believe it or not "And they lived happily ever after"

www.andtheylivedhappilyeverafter.com

You know, I know everyone here doesn't look at divorce as something disgusting. And if I know someone looks at divorce as just another choice in life, I simply don't read or become involved. But to me, barring one of us smacking the tar out of the other, or having a "special friend" on the side that you or she won't give up, divorce is simply a no no. How do I know? Because we BOTH promised it to each other. I guess someones word means nothing anymore.

Am I the only one who finds this site nauseating? I wrote her a quick email, but I don't know enough vulgarities really let him or her know how I feel. And to think I used to wonder how we got ourselves in such a mess.

gg, man, what's been going on with you? How are things? It sounds like not too good. I've been worried about you. Did you make it into school?

All I can say is that if I hadn't been able to divorce my ex, my life would have been ruined. I probably would have been depressed and suicidal for the rest of my life, and who knows how long that would have been.

Is divorce "good"? No, but sometimes it's the only option that will make life decent. Notice, I'm not talking about "happiness," just the absence of misery.

But if I ask the question "Is divorce good," I find I have to ask myself if Marriage is good. Based on what I see today in the United States, I'd probably say yes. Based on what I hear about marriage in fundamentalist muslim countries and some African countries, I'd probably be much more torn. There is no way out for a woman whose husband is beating her and abusing her. In the fundamentalist muslim countries a woman cannot travel without her husband's permission. Such gross inequity of power corrupts, and the marriages are much more likely to become corrupted.

So, while I don't think divorce is good, I think the ability to divorce is good, and good for marriages. I wonder how many of us would be on the divorce section if we and our ex's had approached marriage with "He could leave me. He's only here because he choses to be here now," and the similar "He could fall out of love with me at any time." If both spouses went into marriage with that atttitude, LBs would be fewer and more care would be shown. I also think that the first time your spouse said "Honey, something doesn't feel right in our marriage. We should get some help," you'd be on it like white on rice.

GG - I also have been very worried about you. You know...when you left here without a trace, I was so concerned that I'd said something to scare you off.

I'd also like an update, if you feel up to it.

Hi Cat, Soolee

I'm sorry about just taking off like I did. I never really though it would cause any concern. I just saw me as taking up all your time just spouting off. I didn't want to use you guys as a sounding board.

I had tried plan A for 6 months only to be told the nice gestures were only making her more angry at me. I WANTED to do ANYTHING she needed so that our marriage could heal, but she would have nothing to do with it. This became really frustrating because of all the posters on this board, wives whos husbands are in affairs and treating them like dirt, but YET, the wives wrote over and over how much they still love these guys, will never give up, will try to make the marriage work.............. I don't know, it just bummed me out. I was thinking of my own comfort and simply withdrew, I apoligize.

I don't know why I came back, maybe I'm entering another phase of this thing. Most things are the same. I still haven't found any evidence of an affair. My wifes BF is STILL what I consider a toxic friend. I think what I am involved with is a classic case of "walk away wife".

As far as the rest of my life is concerned, well I sent my oldest off to college, after some tussles. I am taking two classes in MFT graduate program. Believe it or not, I'm in negotiations with some money people to expand my biz. This is tough because I CANT confide in my wife, basically because I cannot TRUST her to give me advice that will help ME in the future. At this point, she cares little or nothing about me. So it seems, I have to plan my future on my own. One thing though, the amount of money that will exchange hands if this transaction goes though will be big time. My wifes retirement will be taken care of. She'll become a bit comfortable and I can put my conscience at ease. I just can't talk to her about it. I tried to talk to her about going to school and she bummed out about it saying that I shouldn't be taking classes that didn't help my business. She said normal people take classes for what they are doing for a living. She said that I was taking these classes because she just finished her masters degree. I just don't want to hear it anymore.

I hope you guys are doing ok. I am thankful that you guys actually thought about what was going on in my lives. I really don't think too many days ever went by that I didn't think about one piece of advice or another that you guys told me in the past.
I adore my wife, that will never change, and I will never give up until she walks out of my life. It just gets so confusing and frustrating at times. Its like I have to get ready to erase the last 30 years of my life and I have no say in it.

Hope to be talking to you guys again. Please don't let me monopolize your time with my problems, it just makes me feel selfish. I'll talk to you later.

Cat- I hope things are at least INCHING towards better with your husband.

Soolee- Is ita coincidence that your posters name is the same as the person who runs SMART MARRIAGE?

Bye now.

I'm so glad you're in school! And great news about the business. Have you ever read Rich Dad, Poor Dad? It's an amazing little book about making money work for you, instead of working for money. When you mentioned money guys, the first thing I thought of was a business that you own, but no longer run, kwim? In other words, arrange it so that each location has its own manager, and all you do is cash checks. That way, that money will allow you to finish school and start your new career. That's the smart way to do it. I know you have quality concerns, but you can probably get by on 4 hours a day overseeing the biz for the first bit, and then hand it off to them. Think Pizza Hut or something. Picture yourself at the top of it, trusting in the people below you to carry on your tradition. Go for it!

This is a horrible misrepresentation and twisting of facts. The claims made by fundies and politicians are true. All those things are happening. But I don't think anyone has said that divorce should be illegal or that no one should ever get a divorce.

What's bothersome is that society is much more accepting of behavior that ruins marriages, like infidelity and selfishness. As well, society has pushed that if you aren't in love and happy right now, you never will be happy in your marriage. So just get out now. Divorce will solve your problems. Simply not true.

I guess I see the high rate of divorce as both a symptom of problems and a problem in and of itself.

Check out the website.

The site manager is out to lunch. She sees divorce as a TOOL for happiness, a strategy to use.

I swear, if this is the COMMON attitude pertaining to divorce, its time for me to get the heelll otta here.

I agree with this 100%:


It's a shame it has come to this.

I checked out the site real quick. It's just one person spouting a bunch of opinions and views with absolutley no facts to support their claims.

I find this claim hilarious:

GG - Total coincidence. This is the only marriage-type website I visit, actually.

Thank you for the update. I appreciate it. I'm glad to hear you decided to begin classes. I think that's wonderful. As far as your wife's comments - you can always tell her that yes - the fact that she reached her goal was an inspiration to you, and it has always bothered you that you didn't get your masters. As far as her worrying that it isn't business related - I wouldn't worry about it. I think it's a very good idea to have something else that you know you can do if your original plan gets old and unsatisfactory.

If it's the money she's worried about - I think you deserve to put some of your earnings towards something that will make you feel good about yourself. You're worth it, and your children will be proud of you for finishing.

As you know, you were prepared for the anger and resentment that initially comes with plan A. The question is just how long a person can handle doing plan A. I guess it's a subjective thing.

I got some sad news this week. Two couples I know are heading for divorce, both situations involving younger children, both situations the husbands rewriting history, drinking too much, and spending lots of time outside the home doing heaven-only-knows with whoever.

I guess because I'm a woman, your situation has always perplexed me. I feel like telling your wife she's crazy - she has someone who is nuts about her and wants to try, yet she chooses to stay in withdrawal. If I didn't know better, it seems like some sort of punishment. Do you feel this way? It's like there's a missing piece of a puzzle lost somewhere, and if you could just find that missing piece, maybe things would fall into place.

Have you had any success with radical honesty with your wife?

Soolee

Sorry to hear about those couples. Its weird, because, in the past, whenever I heard of a couple getting divorced, subconsciencly I always assumed that the "couple" got a divorce. You know, the divorce was mutual. It only after being on here for close to a year that I see the real hideousness of it. That the vast majority of the time ONE spouse is left swinging in the breeze, a victim of the OTHER SPOUSES desire to change a promise. I now realize that there is a lot more pain involved than I had realized.

You know soolee, I share your puzzlement about my marriage, BUT, when someone says that I ALWAYS seem to have need to restate how wonderful my wife can be and how, while I never did, what I and most others consider, anything horrible, I still dropped the ball in so so many cases. I believed in agape love. I truly believed that our love would never die. Argue? Fine, its not great, but after the agruement is over, I still love you. Our arguement does not define us. You like different things, you have different political beliefs, you like things neater, you like saving money more.....FINE! I may not agree with you,or especially like the things that you do, but I KNOW the IMPORTANT THINGS, like humility, responsibleness, mothering, fidelity, intelligence, etc are all there for me, so these every day things, big deal.

But I made a BIG mistake. I thought that the way I think is the way SHE thought. To her agrueing sucked. The fact that we didn't see eye to eye for money was a deal breaker (It wasn't enough that I didn't spend, it was important to here that I understood WHY not spending was the way to be) Even if I cut the grass like she wanted me too, it absolutely drove her crazy that I wouldn't cut it if she didn't want me to......... She not only wants my ACTIONS to be in line with her thinking, she wants my THOUGHTS to be inline with her.

I remember one time, a finacial analyst asked us, in turn, to describe what we would do if our spouse passed away. I listened to her tell her story. She was level headed, saying she would do everything that I thought she would do. Nothing crazy, just perfect. When I went to tell MY story, she interrupted me so many times with exclaimations of "you can't be serious" or " no you wouldn't" that the financial planner asked her to please be quiet and let me continue. Needless to say, she was TICKED OFF.

I've just been a dissapointment to her. All the things that she liked about me when we were dating became annoying ONCE she had responsibilites with me. She just slowly accepted our differences less and less as time went on. And ME, instead of handling like a man, like a good husband, I became more and more insecure and unsure of myself (not a turnon) Things were getting bad, and as the man in this marriage, I SHOULD HAVE taken the bull by the horns, researched, and solved the problem. It was MY responsiblity as a husband to PROTECT our marriage, and I let my ego get in the way. I'm ashamed. Maybe I don't deserve to be an abandoned husband, but my wife deserved much much more as a husband.

I spent way too much time reading there.

While there were some things that were way out there, much of what she had to say I agreed with.

If I understand what she believes, she believes that marriage is not about romance and feelings, but about two equal people loving and respecting one another. I can imagine her giving the Dr Laura line about how you don't just fall on a penis to one of her friends who admits she's in an affair.

So while she may not agree with the permanent nature of marriage, she is very much against affairs. My impression after reading a few dozen articles is that love is work, not just a feeling, and you have to do the work. Affairs are one of the most hurtful things you can do to your children and your family, and if you cannot or will not love your spouse, (and if you are cheating, can you really say you love your spouse) then have the courtesy to end the marriage before you go boffing another man or woman.

And with that, I agree.

Not that my opinion is the end all, be all. But I think most of what she writes is very compatible with what Dr Harley writes.

"She not only wants my ACTIONS to be in line with her thinking, she wants my THOUGHTS to be inline with her."

How do you feel about this, GG? I'm just wondering where she got the idea that you were incapable of offering meaningful input?

What about the radical honesty thing? Have you been able to talk to her at all about how you feel?

EE-

You know DR H writings much better than I, but if those two are even REMOTELY similar (besides hating affairs) maybe I don't WANT to know Dr. Hartley in depth. My opinion of him IS MUCH HIGHER than that, that.....thing.

If she REALLY believes that marriage is about LOVE and RESPECT then how do you EVER, EVER, equate those two words with DIVORCE? If youre spouse is standing there, mouth open, eyes wide, listening to you tell him or her "Hey, I'm sorry, but I just don't feel it anymore. I NEED to leave, for MYSELF. I DESERVE to be happy and I'm sorry, but I don't want you part of my life anymore."

This person saying this WOULD HAVE EVERY RIGHT to do that, IF, it was something that effected ONLY HIM OR HER. But you are CHANGING SOMEONE ELSES LIFE.................WITHOUT their consent. Sorry, but thats NOT loving.

And as far as RESPECT goes......To me, my word means something. And every single person on this sweet earth will, at least, give VOCAL affirmation that their word is gold....Well, talk is cheap. You PROMISED to give it your all FOR LIFE. YOU PROMISED. In front of your spouse, friends, family and in some cases GOD. Now, hell or high water, YOU HAD BETTER KEEP THAT PROMISE....if you are ANYTHING of a human being. NOw if your word means NOTHING, well then, go your way. Breaking the biggest promise of your life...how is THAT respect??

EE, I may be an EX pretty soon also. But, I WILL NEVER be divorced. I made that promise 22 years ago. If my wife walks, I don't NEED another marriage, and frankly, I will NEVER EVER trust another person with my heart and love again. The pain is just not worth it.

ANd, thanks for your input, your always interesting reading.

Soolee

I probably had something to do with that. My wife is an EXTREMELY solid, common sense, responsible person. She ALWAYS does what RIGHT. Her decisions are always the right ones. Her purchases are always the biggest savings. She sees me as more emotional, not as grounded.

RH, Soolee, will ALWAYS lead her to just UNLEASH a barrage of hateful, hurtful words. She will bring up things that happened YEARS ago. Soolee, to be honest, Im ashamed, but I don't even REMEMBER half the things she said I did!! I just don't. I mean, after I listen to her say things about me, I HATE ME, because I sure sound like a total loser. But, I don't FEEL like this loser.
I just don't feel like I am this horrible person that she is describing. And if I stand up for myself, try to explain MY side of it, she explodes with MORE instances about my horrible actions, and that I should just shut up with trying to "make excuses"

I'm not trying to make excuses, I just trying to BALANCE my EXCEPTANCE of blame with MY side of the story....I don't know, just so that I don't go throw myself in front of a 18 wheeler. If I BELIEVE everything she says about me, I might as well end it. I'm simply trying to maintain SOME kind of self respect, without DENYING my fault in this marriage. Radical honesty, Soolee, always leaves me beat up and bruised.

Soolee, could you do me a favor. Check out the "going to bars"
thread. There is a back and forth going on in there. Frankly, I'm being told that my views are NOT in line with DR H. What they are saying IS DR H stance on this subject is really scary. Its making me feel that PERHAPS MB is NOT what I want. BUt, it could be that they are misunderstanding what he says. COuld you tell me if what others are saying is REALLY correct? I respect you knowledge and I really like how you present your opinion to others. Thanks. I hope you have a great day!

My XW did the EXACT same thing, time and time again until there was nothing left.

Your wife is projecting her own self loathing onto you.

She will never be happy no matter what and will drift from disaster to disaster, blaming everyone but herself as long as she has a toxic friend to cheerlead her journey down the commode into the cesspool of failure.

Somewhere she might have a toxic friend that is feeding off of your misery. Toxic friend's words are always gospel and she feeds on the poison that spews from the friend. That friend needs to go and quick.

Mine did have a toxic friend that was involved in multiple affairs and was cheerleading her on. I finally had to expose toxic friend to her husband and OMW.

gg, are you seeing a counselor? You really need to talk to someone who will give you an honest assessment of you and your worth. Please take care of this.

fwiw, we barely know you, but even we can tell you're a nice person with ethics and purpose and value. A great catch for the right woman. Honestly, I think the only way she'll ever see your worth is if you leave her. Also, I agree with Pariah about her self-loathing. It's basically what I said before, that her issues with her rigid parents are driving everything she does. She'll spend the rest of her life seeking to become that perfect person who will finally deserve their respect and love - and never attain it. At least not without her own counseling.

Pariah

Did you read me past posts or what?? Cause if you didn't, man you hit it right on the head. Her BF is what I consider a toxic friend. I introduced them. Her husband worked for me and he is A PIECE OF WORK. I don't blame her for hating him. But as she tries to gather enough courage to leave him, she is egging my wife along. Now don't get me wrong, if I had been taking care of biz she wouldn't be able to push my wife, but she is taking my wifes anger and stoking the fire. I have a keylogger on, an I read the hurtful posts. One email she was complaining about holidays and that next EASTER (the biggest Catholic Holiday, my wife WAS really religious) they should all (the girls) get a cheap hotel room and drink wine!!! ANd my wife agreed! (I really don't know if she was serious or not) But, please. ANother email, my wife was ragging and wrote "i don't know why I just don't hop in the car and leave all of em" (meaning me and my two sons, they were giving her a hard time about wanting to leave me, I guess) The toxic friend wrote back "You know why, it because of your stupid Catholic morals" Stupid morals? Like what, forgiveness, love and sacrifice?

Pariah, I know you are not into religion because of what happened to you, but it was real important to my wife and I am trying to find some solace by finding mine (which my wife can't stand. She is her most TOXIC FRIEND, because she is so unhappy in her OWN marriage. But, let me tell you, her co workers, teahers, all act like cheerleading members also. They cheer her on to "find herself" and she deserves to "be happy and grow". They give her books, fiction, about women who have GREAT marriages but leave because they find someone daring and dangerous or leave to travel the world to find their place in life.....all the same BS. NOT ONCE, did I ever read a email about her responsibilities, her promise, to try and make it better, not once.

But its amazing you picked up on the friend. I haven't found ANY sign of an affair so, I think its a case of walk away.

PS: Oh, Pariah. Yeah, that friend needs to go, all right. But in my wifes present frame of mind, I would have to go before her. Sure as I'm typing this. She is an enemy of my marriage, but right now, that enemy is closer to my wife than I am. If, and its a BIG IF, things start to improve (fat chance) maybe then, but at this point in time me telling my wife to 86 the friend would be simply ignored.

Cat
My mom, my son and my counselor have all mentioned that maybe leaving will push her to try. But, I don't know. I've read over and over that it usually KILLS a marriage. And I would really feel like I bailed and had a hand in killing my marriage, even more than I already do.

I've made so so many mistakes. But I've always LOVED her so much. I just got caught up in providing financially for her and became so insecure and defensive when things were tough. I mean, I always worked, long and hard, I just hated it when she would say "Yeah you work hard, but you work dumb, like an idiot." That used to cut right through me. I should have had the self confidence to know EVENTUALLY all the stupid hard work would pay off....but I lacked the strength a righteous brave honorable husband should have in leading his family.

Cat, Pariah, go check out that bar thread. Do I really have it all wrong? I sure hope not. I hope you guys have a nice day.

PS: Cat, its amazing how much you still remember about my situation. I really am speechless on how much care you put into your messages to me and others. I'm just not used to that. And I'm appreciative. Very much so.