Well Dr Harley says 2 things -

1. The majority of marriages do not survive an affair. Even if a marriage survives it is unfulfilling and unhappy. The infidelity rate in marriage is somewhere between 60 and 80%. The divorce rate is 50% in the USA. Think there might be a connection?

2. 100% of people who follow his program end up with a happy fulfilling marriage even after infidelity.

So the news is good if you will work the program.

I suspect she may be seeing someone John and you are very naive to think otherwise. Huge red flags there.

I do suggest printing out the basic concepts including information about emotional needs and love busters and see if she will read them. Alternately, the book "Fall in love, stay in love" by Dr Harley is a good summary of his plan for a happy marriage.

There are many people here on this site who now have great marriages even after indifelity. I am one.

Why do you believe she is seeing someone? I shouldnt trust what she is saying? What are the red flags?

I definitely dont like hearing that. We had told each other if there was someone else we would tell each other. I dont like having that juggling in my head its ahrd enough to work as it is. I believe she has more conviction than that. Her mom and best friend would not let her pull that and not be straight foward with me. They know how my cheating hurt her and what it put her through.

Well she's given you permission to date. DUH - it's not that hard adding up one and one. Adds up to TWO in case you were wondering.

I dont think she know what your suppose to do when you seperate, I dont know what you are suppose to do. Theres not exactly a handbook. I did the same thing two years ago, but I did it without telling her, and that p***ed her off. She called me a hypocrite for giving her a hard time because I did the same thing.

I dont know where your getting your numbers but the ones I've seen show the majority of marriages making it through an affair. I have seen though the 60% to 80% affair rate.

I didn't see any numbers given, just that Dr. Harley has said that most marriages don't survive an affair. I've heard him say that on his radio show.

I heard him say differently on the video on this website on infedelity.

I think you are mistaken in what you heard John. Dr Harley always says recovery from an affair is a NARROW road. He does say that IF you both follow his plans that you will have success (100%) But most marriages do not recover from an affair - EVEN if they stay together, they never get over it and have a great marriage UNLESS they follow his plan for restoring love.

Why are you so hung up on statistics?

Here's a statistic. Frank Pittman a psychologist has said that in 40 years of marital counselling he has seen (I think) 3 long term marriages end that were not ended because of adultery.

In other words, all long term marriages that divorce inevitably have involved infidelity.

Well I guess I've seen other websites and read other articles that give more positive success rate of marriages surviving through an affair. I know its going to be really hard because she has 2 yrs hurt and hate that I caused but I got to stay positive in knowing that I can get through to her. Its going to be a hard sell to get to want to try Harley's program and I dont know how to plant the seed to get her interested.

I think we are getting off topic here.
John, have you had a chance to write that letter yet? The sooner you get it done, the sooner you can get it to her.

I do want to reiterate one point to you though. The purpose of this letter is not to try and get your wife to reinvest in you and in this marriage. You should not have any expectations on that front. It sounds like a distinct possibility that she is just done and uninterested in remaining married to you. That is her choice.

You are writing this letter, because it represents a change that you need to make to you. You are giving her all the major details and telling her you will answer any questions without equivocation, because she deserves it. You are treating her like a mature adult that has the right to make decisions regarding her life based on truthful information. You can't change her. All you can do is make the changes you need to make to you and maybe she will react to those changes.

Again, I wouldn't bother bringing up Marriage Builders right now. She won't be interested until she becomes intrigued by the source of your change. If she asks, be honest with her, but let HER initiate that conversation.

John - I agree with Andrew - where's your letter?

You are on this site so you have an excellent chance of recovery.

But you're putting the cart before the horse. Take a step at a time and stop avoiding it. Your marriage won't recover without honesty as you have already discovered.

The wont help or hurt, it doesnt matter. She's done.I talked to her yesterday and today and everything steams from the act itself and the emotional abandonment I caused her the last two years. I didnt know what I was doing and I didnt know how to fix it. She asked for help and I turned my back on her. I didnt realize i was doing that, but i did it. It doesnt seem she will be able to get over it. I guess youre right big kahuna, I guess you can say you told me so. I'm gonna keep going to counseling and keep reading Harley's books. She's already asking about when we could canput the house on the market. She told me that she didnt realize it but mentally she has been leaving for two years. I dont know if that is really her talking or the resentment she said she feels for all the hurt I caused her the last two years, but that's where she's at right now.

Well you can of course just give up or you can fight.

It's not over by a long shot.

What do you want to do?

So what you are saying is that you won't write the letter, because you don't stand to get anything out of it? Your wife does not deserve the truth?

I want to fight, but the wall she has up seems so impenetrapable. What and how do I get started. Last night she told me that she realized that she ahd probably had been leaving emotionally the last two years. That pissed me off, to know that I've been emotionally invested the last two years to try to make this work and all along she's been slowly leaving. In the begining I had made a comment that I thought we had half assed trying to reconcile. Not that because we didnt want to try, but that we didnt know what to do or the amount of work involved. She trys to make herself out to be some kind or martar for trying the past two years and then she makes that comment. I didnt say anything to about it, but I wanted to. She thinks that she is some kind of great communicator, but she's not. That's one of her faults, but she doesnt believe. We are both not great communicator. The difference is I know it and I want to work on it. I just never realized how bad I was at it until now.

If you were pissed off by her comment, imagine how she has felt like being lied to for the past two years.


If you want your marriage you need to muster up the strength to fight twice as hard. What did you expect she would do? It took you two years to tell her and since you admit that neither of you are good communicators then perhaps you didn't say the things she wanted or needed to her. She shuts down, you get pissed and that's the end of the conversation. If she is that closed off to you, you should write the letter. At the very least you can express your remorse, your desire to be a good husband, willingness to provide just compensation, apologize for everything from the affair to the way you handled it, etc. At this point, you have nothing to lose if she already has one foot out the door.

John your attidude is all wrong. If you want to fight for your marriage, then fight for it, and stop complaining about her walls. If you want your marriage, her walls are irrelevant to the amount of effort you can put in given the options open to you.

Secondly, the way you write here comes off as you trying to downplay your role in her leaving emotionally and blame it on her own issues with communication. Well, she may have issues with communication, but those are also irrelevant to you right now. Remember you told us that she never believed you when you said the affair wasn't sexual? Well, people like MelodyLane picked up right away that you were lying about that and your wife knew it too. You have no idea the huge toll that those lies take. Your wife was willing to take you back and she even stayed for 2 years, while you repeatedly lied to her face and told her she was crazy (implicitly if not explicitly) and then you accuse her of a lack of effort.

The single greatest thing you can do for your wife right now is be honest with her, for her sake, not for yours. You have been a liar for years now. What change will make the most difference to her? The answer is to take the first step back towards a life of honesty and integrity. But you should be doing that ANYWAYS, for you. What sort of person do you want to be?

Instead, you are rationalizing ways to continue hiding the truth from her because "she has impenetrable walls". Thats a copout. A way to convince yourself that taking the easy road is the right road.

How do you get started? Easy. Right a confession and apology letter and then either slip it under her door, mail it to her, or have her roommate pass it to her. No interaction is required. We will gladly help you fine tune it.

Lastly, contradictions don't exist. You cannot claim to want your marriage, when you are unwilling to take the first step. Actions speak louder than words and your actions are telling us you aren't willing to tell her the truth. Unless you take decisive and immediate action to change that, your wife is better off without you.

Raven, I've done that. I have written two letters, the last one apoloizing for not expressing my remorse or expressing my feelings more freely towards her and her needs. She looks back at the last two years as her doing this great communication job and is being so stubborn she wont believe otherwise. Especially from me, she thinks I 'm coming at her. I keep telling her if I knew I was truly causing her this much pain all along I would of done something to try to fix it. I just hate to hear the way she talks, that its so set. Maybe tour right the only for her to hear me is to keep writing letters. Hopefully she'll read them and not throw them away. She absolutely refuses to want to see a therapist right now, although she has told me she has alot of pent up resentment and bitterness. I try to tell myself that its the resentment talking and that not really how she feels.

I dont think I was accusing of a lack of effort, I think she admitted to that when she said she had been leaving mentally for two years. I'm not complaining about the walls, I want to know what to do to crack through the wall. I guess I have to try to be patient, I'v started counseling sessions with a therapist to work on me. Do you think it's good idea to print out the steps on how to survive infedelity off the web site and see if she would at least read them?