This is first and foremost a MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE.

The goal of the owners of this site is to provide a forum where married couples, or soon to be married couples, can discuss and learn the basic principles that can turn a so-so marriage or even a terribly damaged marriage into a loving caring sanctuary for both spouses.

This site does not provide basic concepts for child-rearing, and the main focus of this site is not about children.

This site does provide a basic concepts for MARRIAGE BUILDING.

The Harley's strongly support a healthy loving marriage, in part because an intact functioning marriage IS the best environment in which to raise children.

Yes, there are other functional ways to raise children, but the other ways are NOT generally considered to be THE BEST environment parents can provide.

Let me repeat - an intact happy marriage is the most positive environment for raising children.

It is often stated by people who do not value marriage as much as the Harleys value marriage: "Children are resilient.".

Yes, some children are resilient, and some children are fragile.
Both types of children, the resilient and the fragile children, do best if raised in an intact 2 parent marriage.

If we claim to believe "children are resilient", does stating this belief provide adult parents an excuse to diminish the quality of life for their children in order to test their child's "resiliency".

If children are "resilient" - does this mean we can be a little careless? A lot careless? Does this mean it's "OK" if we fail to make our marriages work by our lack of knowledge, or our laziness, or our sinful selfishness?

And if the failure of a marriage hurts the no-so-resilient child, is the child at fault for not being "resilient enough" ?

Far too often adults will say "Children are resilient" just prior to making a child's life less safe and secure.

How thoughtless.

Let's assume small children are not so resilient. Let's assume small children will be harmed when a marriage fails and parents split apart. Let's assume small children need protection from adults who make bad decisions.

Here is how Dr Harley answered a member when she wrote to him and asked Dr. Harley about " OC contact".





There are many times in an adult's life we are faced with a 2 choice dilemma.

A 2 choice dilemma means-

NEITHER CHOICE is optimal.
This means one is left with the task of choosing the LEAST HARMFUL alternative.

Decide for yourself which is the least harmful choice - because every choice involves harm to someone.

If contact with OC/OW/OM is going to push your marriage closer to divorce - what's the value of that? And, who pays the price for that chaos and uncertainty?

Pep

How many times have we heard this?


.... and then in the next sentence the betrayed spouse is asked to consider the wishes and feelings of the OW/OM ....

WHAT?

.... and then, the betrayed spouse is informed they have a "moral obligation" to do (insert desire of OW/OM).

Excuse me? .... Did I hear you correctly? Did you say "moral obligation"?

What happend to the famous "I did did not take vows with you" excuse?

"I did not take vows with you" is a one way street - in case no one noticed.

The OW/OM often uses this line - and then cries "moral obligation". :crosseyedcrazy:

In case anyone overlooked this detail:




Adulthood.
Age of consent.
Co-mingling of all the siblings when there is no OW/OM contact posing a danger/threat to the marriage.

With any luck - a good 40 years or more of an enjoyable and fulfilling relationship.

Pep

In the interest of MARRIAGE BUILDING

AMEN! This should be a sticky at the top of this forum.

Let me tell you what comes next in the script where OW is telling the betrayed wife what she is "morally obligated" to do:

"The OC is innocent."

Yes - let's agree to absolve the all the innocent persons from the wrong decisions made by others.


The faithful spouses' children are innocent. Are they resilient enough to be thrown under the bus? The OP is the bus driver by the way.

Pep

Amen Pepperband! I am going to share what you posted with my WH!

Pepperband,
Since you are probably one of the best to give advice, I want ask you this.

H has 2 month old OC. He wants contact, says he can not abandon his child, and innocent baby.

Innocent baby? Yes, I agree.

My wish......NC with OW or OC.

If I insist this and give him an ultimatium, I believe my 18 year marriage with 2 COM will desolve.

What do I do? I don't think I want a divorce (but am not absolutely sure) If I give in and let OC be a part of our lives, I believe I will hold resentment always. I will be going against what I believe in. This is the hardest decision of my life.

I have moments where I think I can handle having OC in my life and possibly learning to love her. Then I have moments where I don't think I can bare the pain to have contact.

Moral dilema of a lifetime!

Ladies..

My heart goes out to both of you.. Shocked and Hurtmom.

There is an OC in my life. There is so much more than any script anyone will give you and each situation is unique. Until you have lived it.. it is virtually impossible to comprehend.

I hope it is not inappropriate to give you an email to contact me for information regarding this situation.. Marriage Builders is the very best resource out there for your relationship..but finding others who can listen and understand really does help ten-fold.

cordially1@hotmail.com

Blessings,

Eibrab

Eibrab,

I tried to e-mail you, but it was returned to me. I double checked the spelling twice. Could you have made a mistake, or do you have an alternate address that I could contact you with?

I would really like to talk to you. I need help from someone with experience. Thanks!

and nor should he abandon his child. If you accept him back and forgive him, realize a child comes with the package. INSIST on NC with the OW. That will mean a lot of tough work.

Now, IF the OW is married and the child can be raised with a father (the OW's BH) I would suggest your husband NOT try and develop a relationship with the child at this time. BUT, if the OW is NOT married, I think your husband SHOULD be involved in that child's life.

hurtmom, email me at killnme2004-mb@yahoo.com

medc, until you have walked a mile in our shoes I ask that you not tell newly BW's with an OC that they must allow contact. It is her choice if she wants OC in her life and it is her H's choice to choose the marriage or not. It is not an easy choice either way but the marriage and the COM must come first.

Hurtmom, you are so early in this. DNA must be established before you agree (or not) to contact with OC. DNA must be established before you agree to marital assets going to this child as well.

Yes, each situation is unique but you know as well as the rest of us that these OW all read from the very same script. Pep has given advice that needs to be taken to heart. OC or not, she knows what she is talking about.

Additionally if they do not get relationship advice, how will they save their marriages?

Hurtmomof2,

Again know that you do not have to choose C w/ OC if you feel it is not in the best interest of you , your COM and your relationship.

I would highly suggest that you not consider your H's needs right now. You need to concentrate on you and what is best for you. You need to discover your power and what you can live with or not live with. Unfortunately this means that you respect your H's wishes and sometimes that means that you and your H will separate but you need to be strong enough and read to handle either decision.

Please take some time out just to reflect upon your needs and talk with a counselor ( individuall) to discover you again and what is important to you.

I wish you the very best on this unfortunate road that we must travel.

whatever you decide hurtmom, you MUST heal your marriage before considering C with OC. If your M is not strong it will not hold up under the stress of C. (((hurtmom)))

I am not at all interested in what you think I should/can post. I am not telling anyone what they MUST do...I am offering my opinion. If you don't like it, i am okay with that. Your opinion has value here...as does mine.

And save the "walk a mile in my shoes" stuff. Just because I never experienced something does not mean I cannot offer a valuable/intelligent opinion(even if it differs from your advice).

As you may know, medc, I highly respect you and the fact that you have custody of your son. I am simply asking you not to tell someone so fresh from this experience that they must allow the OC in their life.

Respectfully, it DOES make a difference. You can have your opinion and offer advice, but the vantage point makes a huge difference.

I don't think anyone can really imagine the additional horrors this situation causes a spouse and a family, until they are involved in it.

The idea that everyone involved (especially BW and COM) should bow down, and bend over, for the rights of the innocent OC is cruel and naive. Every person's happiness and well-being has to be considered in the decision and the best plan has to be laid on that foundation. No one doubts the innocence of the OC.

Just my opinion, though. Based on experience.

Did I say anything of the sort?

What I DID say is that IF (and this is certainly the BW's choice) she decides to take her FWH back that the OC might be part of that package. I say might, because as I said before, if the OC has a father at the ready (the OW's husband) I do not think he should attempt to have a relationship. If the child will be fatherless, I DO think that the FWH should have a relationship with that child and that it should be done in a manner that allows for NC.

I do not think that those that are involved in situations are always the best sources for information. Frequently they are less than objective and put their own ideas and feelings into a situation that really could benefit from a less subjective perspective.

This has NOTHING to do with the innocence of the OC...that is unquestioned. What it does have to do with are the responsibilities of a father to ALL of his children....not just the ones that the BW THINKS he should take care of. It is a fathers responsibility to make sure that ALL of his kids are cared for...and if that causes discomfort for a BW, while I understand her angst, it is a situation that will need to be dealt with.

medc, I do want to apologize. I NEVER want to be one of those posters who tell others what and how to post. I hope you accept my apology.

Yes this is a dilemma of a lifetime.

And I personally hold the opinion that it is cruel and inhumane of your H to ask you to make this decision without DNA proof in your hand that this decision is really necessary!

This is why I have spoken to you like a broken record - get proof first then decide!

Your decision - based on your personal limits and your knowledge of yourself - should be made with full awareness of what exactly you'll be getting yourself AND your children into.

OW's can be like snakes - coiled and waiting, appearing to be asleep, but actually poised and ready for you to step unaware so they can strike and bite you.

The phrase "if I give in" is automatically a negative choice and a huge resentment for the future. Do not make any choice guaranteed to provide you a life time of resentment.

You cannot make your husband's choice for him.
He is free to make his own choices.
OW may pressure H to continue the affair by dangling a precious baby in front of him. This has happened to other BWs and you should never, and I mean NEVER, turn your back on OW if you stay married. There will be pressure put on you to relax your vigilance - but don't be a fool. OW is and will be a threat to your marriage for decades, if not the rest of her life.

I don't have an opinion of WHAT your choice should be.
I do have an opinion that you should not make YOUR personal choice until after you have proof.

If you decide to delay your decision - that's OK too - but delay your decision accepting and knowing that your H will be seeing OW/OC with or without your knowledge or permission.

Once a man has stated he will be part of the OC's life, they generally will do whatever they must do - including lying to their wife and screwing OW to make contact with OC happen.

If OW still has warm fuzzy feelings about your H - she will use OC as a wedge to seduce him. OW may decide that OC needs a sibling (it's happened before)

So my advice to you

1. decide after you have proof in your hand
2. decide without anyone else pushing their agenda on you

3. if you decide to stay married insist on the stipulation that your H calls the Harley Coaching #, their experience can assist how you draw the boundaries of this situation that keeps OW/Snake away from your husband



Your H and just about everyone else will try to serve you a guilt sandwich if you don't bend yourself into a pretzel making OC the number one priority in this situation - putting OC's needs before your needs, before the needs of your children, and before the needs of your marriage safety and security.

My prayers for you and your children -

Pep

That is the truth. In addition most people don't know what it is like to deal with a crazy OW for the rest of their lives. Many of these women USE the OC for their own gain. This is far worse for the child then the father being NC. It IS sad. I wish all children had a stable family, but to force the COM to have a part time dad so the OC can have contact with dad is truly NOT right. Nobody wins in these situations.

you owe me no apology...but yes, accepted.

I understand your passion(and can feel your pain) about this. I am certain you understand my passion for children(I am sure that you know I feel that supersedes everything). That may result in a butting of heads on occasion, but I think i know you well enough to realize your intentions are good.


I respect you and your views...even when I do not agree with them.

My H is living proof of this, hurtmom. Pep knows what she is talking about. My H refused to get DNA cuz it would have cut off his supply of sex with the OW. He allowed her to write a ridiculous "custody and visitation" agreement and SIGNED it to shut her up so she would not cut off his supply of sex. You get the picture?

and a reminder ....

This is first and foremost a MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE.

The goal of the owners of this site is to provide a forum where married couples, or soon to be married couples, can discuss and learn the basic principles that can turn a so-so marriage or even a terribly damaged marriage into a loving caring sanctuary for both spouses.

Use this site to help repair your marriage - IF that is your choice.

You may want to call Harleys for an appointment yourself, without your husband. Ask them what are the chances your marriage will fully recover, should you "give in to".

THIS: ~~~> "give in to" is a very very bad idea.

Pep

The feeling is mutual. Thank you.

LMAO. Where in the world have you come up with this?

And while this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE it is NOT a marriage at all costs site.

It is possible to build your marriage and still take care of ALL of your children.

medc,,,,,, you seem to have a unigue style of playing symantics. I have to agree with FF here that you did tell this lady what she "should" do. so you didn't use the word "must".

that being said maybe suggesting such actions with a little more care in word choice could work better. neither do i care what anyones opinion is on a site such as this. i do respect all opinions though. but i am more concerned with how they are stated. we can be honest and still state it with empathy.

I do however agree with your statement

""""""Just because I never experienced something does not mean I cannot offer a valuable/intelligent opinion"""""""""

there are a great many male drs delivering babies who have never experienced the act of giving birth but in fact have a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

HURT,,,,, you seem to be between a rock and a hard place with trying to decide which way is best for you. i understand both views on the subject of C vs NC.

I do believe that you need to be less considerate of your h's position and worry more about what YOU need at this early stage.

for a h/father who wants to be active in all his C's lives. does he understand that choosing C with oc could in fact separate him from his COM should YOU decide you can not deal with him having C?

being a bh whose om has visitation and pays cs i can give you the opinion from ow h should she be married (i don't know).

i felt at the time that visitation and cs were the way to go. both morally and om's responsibility wise. and in those ways i still do. BUT and this is a big BUT. now that i am down the road 7 odd yrs i have come to the realization that from MY standpoint i wish he had nc with us.

this is not because of any fear of the A starting or om making waves in my M. it is from my own (selfish maybe) position that i miss oc when she is away. my house just has an empty void n it.

so here is a suggestions and it is just that. you can give it some thought or just s#!t can it. your choice. and please people don't start on me with the using the oc garbage.

if you and your h cannot come to terms about nc vs c and you still want to give your M a try. maybe since this oc is still so young your h will consider a period of say 1 year without c or very limited c.

that would give you 2 a chance to rebuild your relationship without the drama of ow/oc presence.

then you and h can reevaluate where you both are and move on from there. also since oc is still so young he/she will be able to begin and have a meaningful relationship without any in my life out of my life hangups.

with my oldest son i wasn't allowed to see him until he was almost 2 yo and we have an excellent relationship. the same is true with our oc. om didn't meet her until about 20 months and she has adjusted just fine.

anyhow just a thought.

take care of yourself

there are NO semantics..I can suggest to someone what I think they SHOULD do...I cannot tell them what they MUST do.

Perhaps a bit more care in reading what I actually wrote is on order.

John Edwards has lied to and continues to lie to his dying wife and to his older children and Edwards lies to the public/media in order to see OC while he probably continues to screw OW.

Once a man says they want contact with OC - they are willing to risk putting other family members under the bus to make contact happen.

These things will not stop a man from secretly seeing OW/OC once he has made up his mind:

wife's cancer
wife's pain
children's pain
public opinion
religious beliefs


Pep

1. decide after you have proof in your hand

2. decide without anyone else pushing their agenda on you

3. if you decide to stay married insist on the stipulation that your H calls the Harley Coaching #, their experience can assist how you draw the boundaries of this situation that keeps OW/Snake away from your husband

Those things did not stop THAT man from doing it. Assuming that men generally (as a rule) would do this is based on what???

I think as a rule, women are backstabbing cheaters that should never be allowed out the front door.

I base this on Madonna cheating with A-rod and even bringing her children along for the ride.

As a rule, men are just as noble and able to maintain appropriate boundaries as women. As a rule, men have a genuine concern for ALL of their children and will act with character while trying to maintain a relationship with them. As a rule, women that are afforded custody do not require sex for a man to be able to see his child.

My point is - you cannot insist on NC.
You don't control H.

Your choice is as follows:

1. accept OC
2. divorce

BOTHCHOICESSUCKBIGTIME

but, it is what it is

if your husband says or has said "I will be in this child's life." - BELIEVE HIM !

He's telling you the truth.
He WILL be in OC's life no matter what your wishes are.

it is what it is

THE FIRST STEP IS TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH

the truth is that your needs/desires/wishes/pains/hurts/bleeding ulcers/cancer/mental breakdown DO NOT MATTER - your H will STILL SEE OC - even if it means behind your back dishonestly

Pep

agreed

If you decide on your own without pressure from anyone else's agenda that YOU cannot tolerate OC in your life .... then your husband's choice is as follows:

1. NC with OC until OC is 18
2. divorce

once again

BOTHCHOICESSUCKBIGTIME

it is NOT morally wrong for you to decide what your own limits are

it is irresponsible for you to make a decision without proof first
(for example; it is irresponsible of your husband to assume he is the bio dad without proof)

Pep

agree again. only base this on your own agenda...not mine...or anyone elses. decide what is right for you...and your husband can do the same.

IF you decide to tolerate OC (once you have DNA proof) and you decide to try and make your marriage work for both of you, I strongly urge you to contact Harley's for guidance


LINK

Hurtmomof2-

Thank you for asking me for my opinion.
Now I think it is time you call a professional and seek their guidance.


We offer opinions on the discussion forums - the Harleys are marriage coaching professionals and can show you a roadmap back to a happy and safe marriage should you choose to remain married.


Pep

Medc,

How am I supposed to enforce NC with OW? She is single. How would he be able to pick up the OC without having C with her?

It can be done. Use an intermediary to pick up the child. I have worked this out in my own life with parents that are entitled to see foster kids...but that I do not wish to see them based on their behavior.

An intermediary would be your best bet.

DNA is very important too.

Pep,

H and I do have appt. with MC in 2 weeks. His idea. His job transfer came through and he will be moving home permanently this weekend. We were not separated, he was working out of town during the week and coming home on the weekends.

Told him there was no way to recover from this long distance.

OW is local to my area.

This is exactly why you should not trust snakes!

YOU or a trusted intermediary (court assigned) would be the one to pick up/drop off OC for court ordered visitation.

This all needs to be done legally - which is why DNA proof is necessary.

Pep

There really is no one to be the go-between. I suppose I can insist that my oldest child (daughter-16) go with him when he picks up OC, that way I can be assured that nothing will happen between them. Having just wrote that makes me sick to my stomach, the fact that I distrust him so much.

court ordered intermediary - like a social worker

NOT your daughter

NEVER should your daughter be asked to clean up after and take responsibility for her father's adultery

NO!

you can hire an intermediary. Sort of like a baby sitter/child care person that receives compensation for their work. That is how it is worked out through our county.

Trust me, should you decide to do this...there is a way to work out these details.

he has harmed you and your children and cannot be trusted to stop harming you and your children - not yet and not for awhile

he's still blind to the actual depth of your pain and to the extent of harm he's done to your children and the depth of harm he's done to OC

he will ask you to endure more pain and suffering and cloak it as your moral obligation


get DNA

H will do what he wants, I can't force him to do anything. He will not get a DNA test, he insists the OC is his. I do not agree that waiting until OC is 18 to start a relationship is the best thing.

You're either going to have C or have NC. It's not rocket science.
What guarantee is there that OC would even want a Relatioship with a father she has not seen until she is an adult?

A million things could happen in 18 years. OW could get married have more children with new H. OC will be loyal to that family if that's all they ever knew.

I also don't agree that every person who has OC is going to use Oc as a way to have sex with OW. Consenting adults.......if they're going to do it, they will, OC need not be a factor in that equasion.

I personally would insist on a DNA test if I were the BS. That would be a deal breaker for me.

You need to set the boundaries that are important to you.

Just so no one gets the wrong idea. I was not saying this just to pep, but to everyone who responded to me. I don't want it to seem like I was singleing her out.

Have you scheduled the DNA test?

Wow I missed a lot since this morning...

Any hurtmomoof2 ...

You are receveing some good advice and some not so good advice from some folks ...after reading the thread... I strongly suggest you take some time out think to think about your wants and needs and not what you husbands needs are. You have some big decisions to make.

And by the way the following poster is right when they said that H was telling you the truth about wanting C with OC. You can't ignore that fact and you now need to decide what you are going to do but you should have DNA test first...

1. Integrate OC in your life and allow C
2. Divorce because you believe C w/ OC is not for you.3.

Just remember none of these choices are optimal but for you to know what is best for you need to step back , breathe and discover what your wants and needs are and do what is best for you. Please discover your power/ your inner strenght.

I also want to share something else with you when you are contemplating your decisions and may be good to discuss with your H and kind of piggybacks off of Pepperbands info about this being a marriage building site. I added this excerpt to it before sharing it with my H to put the OW and OC in perspective..

Quote:

I do not know about you… but the last time I checked it takes two to have an A and two to make a baby and it is wrong especially in this day and age when people choose to have an A, to have an A w/someone who is married and furthermore to have an A with someone who is married and has children and then get pregnant on top of that. Especially when women now hold more power and control over their reproductive choices then men, and when a pregnancy can be prevented and or taken care of. Don’t get me wrong men are to be held accountable as well for not protecting their W‘s and COM’s but in our society today women alone hold most of power when it comes to choices such as these. The OW knows this and will use the power of seduction to get what she wants.

This is also a classic tactic in how an OW tries to keep, trap, use guilt by a means of moral obligation and make it very difficult for the BS to forgive the WH so he will return to the OW. The OW is trying to seal her fate because they feel the WH/WW owes them. It is like saying…

“I got you now and I am not letting go of you without a fight. If I lose I will destroy everything you value more than me and if I do not destroy it I will make you pay for not choosing me by making your life difficult and full of regret!”

WH’s need to realize that this a NONVERBAL FIGHT and that the OW views this as a win- win situation and views the WH in a win- lose situation and the BS in a lose-lose situation.. The OW lets the outcomes speak for themselves while patiently waiting, going on with life like WH does not matter, playing nice, being understanding, coming across as being rational and cooperative and occasionally taking jabs at the BS via disrespectful comment/judgments and trying very hard to be the total opposite of the picture painted of the BS by the WH when they were pursuing their A. Remember you went to the OW/OP because they were someone you could talk to, was understanding and was very accommodating of your emotional needs. The OW/OP knows this will try to continue to be this way. Easy going!

The OW will remain quiet, will not expose the WH and will keep his secrets, and whatever else she convinces/manipulates the WH into doing by using his guilt over MORAL OBLIGATION to the OC and the BS and COM (if any) against him. She will also make it known to WH that she does not want the OC around the BS. A tactic displayed by the OW that keeps the WH in a position where they cannot mingle the two worlds without difficulty, which also puts him in a compromising position with the OW and the BS which encourages the WH to maintain the secret second life which creates more deception and feelings of betrayal for the BS. The OW is letting the naive WH dig a bigger hole for themselves to get out of and pretty much destroying all chances of recovery with the BS. The WH’s pretty much unknowingly just HANG THEMSELVES.

The OW will also, if the opportunity arises, create more doubt in the mind of the BS if discovered and confronted. Remember the BS is in the way and has always been the barrier to getting WH and the OW wants to and has always wanted to take the BS’s place. Her ultimate goal is to have WH as her H and be the W and raise the OC together. If the OW /OP cannot have that then no one will. To further illustrate this point …Did your OW/OP start planning a life with you and offered to help with your transition if and when you decided to leave your W and COM (if any)? Was the OW/OP willing to accept your COM (if any) in her life? Most of the time this will also ring true … The OW/OP’s do not want the OC around the BS. I find this interesting and so should you. Did your OW/OP disclose this need to you?

Also realize that the OC is being used for OW’s personal gain and make no mistake about it. It is a selfish tactic that is being applied at the OC’s expense. The OW would not intentionally or blatantly do this because it would make her look bad as a mother and she must come across as being protective and loving of the OC because the OC is a part of the WH, the man she loves and has always wanted and deep down still wants. WH ‘s have a hard time understanding or believing this concept but they need to know that it does happen and it is happening and it happens just under the radar. WH’s need to realize they should not underestimate the power of a woman with low moral values. They are usually seductive, quietly manipulative and quietly vindictive and will use these characteristics to their advantage if necessary.

Due to this you should take heed to this quote from Dr. Harley…

__________________________________________________________________________________
Quote:
My advice is to avoid contact with the child until he or she reaches
adulthood.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Which means…Adulthood. Age of consent. Co-mingling of all the siblings when there is no OW/OM contact posing a danger/threat to the marriage.

With any luck - a good 20 or more years will pass where you will have a real opportunity to rebuild your marriage and enjoy a fulfilling relationship without distractions.

In the interest of MARRIAGE BUILDING
__________________________________________________________________________________
Quote:
There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is never seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place.
Let me tell you what comes next in the script where OW is telling the betrayed wife what she is "morally obligated" to do:

"The OC is innocent."


Yes - let's agree to absolve all the innocent persons from the wrong decisions made by others.

The faithful spouse and the faithful spouses' children are also innocent. Are they resilient enough to be thrown under the bus? The OP/OW is the bus driver by the way.

Something to think about…

End quote

No............he will not take one. insists baby is his. Besides, who's going to pay for that? H has extremely good job.

But for the past 8 months, we have been keeping up two households due to him working out of town. Very expensive!

My mortgage alone is $3200.00 plus a $400.00 Home Owner's Association fee. I have a lot of expenses. Yes, we may have money, but it's not like you think.......the more you have, the bigger the bills etc...

18 years of child support and courtroom drama will cost far more than a DNA test. Here is the thing hurtmom, it is up to YOU to choose if you want to stay with your H and accept OC without DNA. Others have done it, however you will never know for certain and you will be legally obligated for life (your H will). You can have your own boundaries, that gives you your own power here.

Example,

"husband, I want to work on our M. I am willing to consider C with OC (with NO OW in picture) if you will get legal paternity done and get visitation/cs set up legally. I love our home and our family and want to PROTECT them. We need you to protect our family."

or "husband, I cannot accept this OC in my life. I love you and want our marriage but I cannot at this moment see myself being able to accept this child"

This puts the ball into his court to do what he needs or you have your chance to walk away. I KNOW this is not easy. I KNOW that many of us have moved our boundaries, only to suffer even more at the hands of the OW, H and even the courts. It really stinks all the way around.

the only difference between the guy making 200k and the one making 30k is the number of zeros at the end of his debts

If (and that's a big IF) I decide to have C with OC, H is going to tell OW that I will be involved in the child's life. If she says she doesn't want that, then I will go with H on any visits he has with OC, whether in public or OW home. I will have no problem confronting her. When it comes to situations where a confrontation might take place, I have never been weak. I am not a violent or angry person, but I have always been able to stick up for myself, in a mature and adult manor. Without screaming and swearing, and never any physical violence. Besides pounding on H chest in an emotional breakdown,the last time I hit anyone was in a fight in 8th grade.

I have no intention of letting this woman ruin what I have built over the past 18 years. Two beautiful smart children who go to a very good catholic school that H and I chose, a nice home, solid long term relationships with family and friends, active in my church. Family memories of vacations and such.

All my previous posts were of an emotional nature and being frightened of what is to come. Not that I am still not concerned, however this is preety much how I operate. At first I get very emotional, sad, depressed, crying. When I finally pull myself together, I can be very strong. I am starting to feel that way right now. I will not allow this woman to destroy (or try to)or hurt anyone in my family. I am stronger and wiser than her. She is a big drinker. I know this for a FACT, and I also know for a fact that she has had relationships with women.

I've even seen a picture of her, and not to sound vain or conceited, I am 100 times prettier than her, and H even agreed with that (what else would he say? LOL :))I am finding this board quite comforting. I also like very much how mature all the people here are. We can disagree on a subject and voice our opinions freely, without the worry that we will be flamed or ganged up on. I have gotten so much good advice. I need to step back, take it all in, and then I am going to make my gameplan.

With God's help, I truly believe I will suceed.

Amen! God's blessings on you, hurtmom.

Pops,
Totally agree I even said, the more you make, the bigger the bills. I am very lucky to live a good lifestyle and be able to stay home with my children. Even though I am very angry with H right now, he has worked EXTREMELY hard to get to where he is at today. He has been a wonderful provider for our family, and I do have to admit a good, attentive father to my children. A good husband? Yes. but not any longer. He is going to have to do some very hard work to regain my trust.

How do I add a signature to my posts? Like me-BS etc.

Go unde the "My Stuff" tab and select My Profile. You can type in your signature info there.

Just FYI, after over 4 years on various affair OC/OW boards, I have seen only 1 in hundreds of OW who did NOT use OC as a pawn in the situation in one way or another, not just sex.

Particularly when they realize they are not going to come out with the father at the end of the day as her H. The gloves come off and the games begin. Generally, these games and the using of OC as a pawn for power and control, do not have OC's interests at heart. Just OW getting her vengence.

It is a fact.

Even with court ordered visitation, even with all the documentation in the world, they still create drama and try to mess up the marriage.

Watch for it. Plan for it and be a united force with your H, should you choose contact. It will come. You can overcome her drama and efforts to drive a wedge between you and your H if you work together and have complete honesty and agreement on how you are handling OW.

It can be done and has been by many BW's. But it is hard. Most BW's who are willing to go through this genuinely love OC and feel that the pain of dealing with OW is worth the love of OC. They are truly wonderful women who DO have OC's best interests in their hearts. God bless them.

Thanks! Got it.

As a fow I liked to chime in on this is you don't mind. I have not read your whole story but a few posts here and another thread. Although I do believe in the MB principles as a mother of an oc I do not agree and everyone knows here how I feel about this with NC for oc. With that said I also know there are circumstances where it has to be that way. My oc has NC with her bio father and she is 4 and it's just the way it is.

By the dates I see it's still fairly new with you and I don't blame you for having the fears you have. I hear alot say here that the Bw should not be the one to make the compromises and by having contact she is.......well maybe but not all of them. If the ow wants the father to have contact and he is staying with his wife and kids she DOES have to accept that YOU as his wife and your children will be in that Oc's life.....end of story.

If you go to court the judge is NOT going to say Oh poor ow you don't have to face this and your end of it and not have let your child be with his fathers family unless of course your on probation for sex acts or something simular.

If you can't handle the pick ups and drops off I agree with the others hire someone to do that.

I also strongly agree to have a DNA test and have everything go through the courts. Even if you agree on it all through an attorney then have it filed through the courts. It truely is for your protection and even this child's protection. A DNA test will not only protect you and yours but the child as well too. With a Dna test this woman can never come back and say well MM you really are not the father even though you've acted like it for 10 years and gave me $ nor can he get stuck with later court order paying back child support for years when he's been paying child support.

I'm not hear to judge if you have c or NC. I have my opinions on it and have my reasons for them.......

BTW......I knew I was only with my xmm and I had NO problems taking a Dna test. Well maybe 30 seconds I was mad, but then common sense took over.

The fact of the matter is you are married to your husband and you have a right to be in Oc's life as well and OW can not say you can or can not be apart of it. The ow has to make sacrafices and be put out as well as she helped make this bed with your husband.

did your husband sign a AOP when the oc was born? That makes it a bit more stickier but can still request a dna test. I've seen it done.


Pep........I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on something. I am a single mother and my kids are my first priority......my divorce from my husband was actually best for my children. If you don't have both partners in a marriage working to make the marriage work it's not always best for your children. It can do more harm to them. As much as I would have loved to been married to my xh till death do us part I was not willing to be married and alone in the marriage. Alot of circumstances surrounded by children also have alot to do with how we as there as there parents handle them and handle the kids with them. Two parents are great but not every child who is raised by ONE parent is going to be unable to cope with the aftermath of divorce and be the a great adult and function in a normal relationship when they grow up as an adult. I just hate for it to be stereotyped as a single mother with young children. If we as adults react a certain way then I know our children will follow wheather that is postive or negitive. JMHO from my very own experience.

Mary - if your divorce was best for your children, you are an exception, not a rule. As a child, I wanted my mother to get a divorce. I wanted to be away from my father - the man who raised me. I remember wishing that I could find out that someone else was my father. How my mother kept a straight face thru that, I don't know... (remember, Mom thinks OM is my bio-dad).

Now I see the chaos that would have resulted. I got a chance to ponder on the man I would marry and have children with. I got to be mindful that this is a ONE TIME choice. Your children won't be raised with that gift and for that, I'm very sad for them. They also won't have the gift of living with a mother and a father.

See, this is the #1 reason that I am SO opposed to gay marriage. Children NEED BOTH a mother and a father, not two of one and none of the other... They need to see how to work together, to resolve difficulties together and to celebrate their differences rather than leave because of them...

Single moms so often don't have a choice. They have my admiration and gratitude for toughing it out when abandoned by an immature father. They provide as best they can. Single fathers too, so often don't have a choice. A so-called mother, so wrapped up in whatever is so awfully important to take precedence over the most important years of their child(ren)'s lives is not deserving of the title. And there are a few of those men on the general questions board and they also have my admiration. What a gift those children have to have an active father in their lives.

Those things said...

If my mother could tough out a marriage for 61 years, 50+ of which were not happy years from 3 weeks into the marriage until the day Dad was forced to stop drinking... then any reasonable person can work it out with another person who is or isn't. Parenting and doing what's best for the children requires maturity. It requires setting aside sacred cows for the family good. For the sake of a child, who needs a mother and a father.

It's too bad that in so many cases the mother and/or the father or both don't consider the needs of a child and try to exclude each other - as if the child is property...

It's too bad that in the case of the OW and OM on this board, they make choices that will ultimately cause their innocent children to be raised without the benefit of both parents. But that's on the road of adultery and once you choose that road, all other choices are removed from the ideal.

Just saying Mary - your way is not the ideal for your children. But it's the best you can do given the road you chose.

Hey Kay, yes I do remember the majority (I think) of your story. And this right here.


IT's a double edge sword. I come from a intact family and my parents will be celebrating there 60 year anniversary next year. So I get what your saying...difference is my parents were a team and loved each other and both had the same goals and worked for the future with each other.

I do NOT agree though however is the majority of cases when (I'll use my marriage as an example) there is caso from the adults going on 24/7 and that it is healthy for your kids to see one parent drunk all the time they are not working, sleeping in seperate rooms living seperate lives going in oppisite directions. When you have one child suttering all the time and the other begging you to stop fighting or stop drinking long enough to have family time. What is that teaching your children about marriage? To settle for and allow one partner to live alone with someone and have a family there but there really not there? Or it's okay to treat your spouse that way? The one who is suppose to be there and be your partner in life?

Some marriages can take it and even though there may not be much love there there is still enough respect for each other that they will make it work for there kids. Even if I would have had that I'd still be married.

It amazed me that within one month of my husband leaving my daughter stopped stuttering except for the once in awhile excitement.

It was much easier rasing my children because I was not having to raise an adult as well.

And what do you know come to find out he was cheating on me as well. And that is who he is with now.

I agree it is ideal to have both parents. It's the best ideal stitch. But I'm old enough to have seen kids raised in both intact and one parent homes to know that if the effort is there both can turn out pretty good. I've also seen where both intact and one parent homes have had there share of challenges in cases as well.

I made a mistake after i kicked my husband out but I never ever made the mistake on my kids time. My kids came first always.

My oc will have challenges. I know this. It's my job to make those challenges easier for her and do what I have to do to soften those for her and do what is best for her welfare. I'm prepared for this and I will do what it takes to make sure she is OKAY over this. Thus far so far so good. Granted she is only 4 and yes she has already had challenges and I've walked her through them without putting her father down.

My twins that are almost 10 now are very well behaved girls, get all a's and b's in school and every year have been on the honor and good citizenship award list. Of course they are not perfect but they do pretty darn good.

I don't put down there father to them either. THEY have told me they are happy with the way things are. They remember even though they were only 3 when we seperated that we are not together anymore. They love there dad but he does to them but he did to me. They don't depend on him and he did that to them, not me. I encourage them to spend as much time as possible with him. I go out of my way to let them spend time with them almost to a fault of disrupting my schedule and plans. My attorney has told me to stop it, but really whose best interst is that in, mine or my kids?

Again, if the adults do what they are suppose to do and nuture there kids and play positive roles in life mishaps kids will tend to do the same. I've seen it to many times and live it so that is why I believe that. When you have to disrupt the intact family then the way it's handled is how your kids for the most part (I realize not one size fits all)will follow in suite.

Kay I do admire both of your parents though making it work for all those years for the sake of you (and if you have brothers and sisters).

Marysway............NO I am NOT on probation for any sex acts. What kind of a statement is that to make? I'm sorry, but I find that a bit offensive.

If you read my thread under the topic Marriage Counseling, you will see where I'm at in the situation so far.

Hurt

Hurt, it was generalized and you took it in the wrong context. If you read my entire post I truely think you would have seen that. My point was and I've always stood for this is you have every RIGHT to be in that child's life. You are married to your husband and apart of his life. It was generalized blanket statement. I was sticking up for you and letting you know comeing FROM how I feel being the FOW w/oc how I feel and how it is period.
Unless I am mistaken you mentioned the ow did not want you around the oc? OR around for p/u and d/o? Was that you or someone else if it was someone else then I am sorry you took it the way you did, but my point to that comment is TOO BAD! No judge is going to put those types of conditions on visation unles it is something drastic as sex offenders, physcal abusive stitch's drug use etc. Otherwise the Ow needs to suck it up too and just apprceiate that she helped create this stitch and it is what it is. She too will be making compromises in order for this child to have the father in the child's life. Nothing more was intended with what I said.

If it was a generalized statement, you would have written "excluding people who have been charged with sex acts in the past" You said unless "I have been in trouble for sex acts"

Maybe I did take it the wrong way. It's hard to get someone's tone through a post. What's with the if I don't like the comment that's TOO BAD!

What are you getting so bent out of shape about? I'm sure other's know this, but don't you post on TOW? And you post here?

I don't know your story, so I really don't have an opinion about you.

Just wondering why you're on an infidelity board, and also on an OW board? Confusing to me.

To answer your question, No.......OW never said that she didn't want me around OC. I said that If I was her (and her boyfriend went back to his wife (ME)) that I probably wouldn't want the wife around my baby.

I read a little bit more of your post. Just so I have this right, and please correct me if I'm wrong. You have twin girls from an affair where you were the OW? And you are now married to someone else, or still married to the same person. Just trying to get a little background info. I'm not trying to embarass or judge you. Honestly.............God Bless!

Hurt

there are enough people out there that have either benefited from...or would have benefited from getting away from one parent to make it more than an exception. I would have greatly benefited if my mom had dropped off the face of the planet...let alone my dad divorcing her and raising us himself. I also know my son is far better off without his mom being a daily influence in his life.

I will also say that there are a lot of others out there just like me. While a 2 parent household is best....that only holds true if one of the parents is not a complete idiot.

We have people here that raise their children in homes with abusive spouses....active drug and alcoholic parents...sorry, those kids would be better off being raised by the sane parent and if there is none...then an adoptive family.

I have seen horror stories both as a cop and as a foster parent of what what happens to kids that fall victim to a horrible parent.

First of all H*ll to the NO that I post on TOW. When I first came across my stitch yes I did 5 years ago but ONLY in one forum and it had nothing to do with keeping an affair going. Nor was I there very long. Now that that part is cleared up on to the next one.

Yes I do have twin girls. NO they are not from xmm. I was married to my husband. We went through 4.5 years of infertilty and our last IVF seesion I actually got pregnant and was able to keep that pregnancy (had total of 8 miscarragies) to term. I never cheated on my husband. But I do believe that my marriage contributed to my state of mind that helpped lead to the affair I was in with a MM after I had kicked my husband out (6 months past). I had a horrible marriage my self esteem was pretty low and I could not believe that anyone would want a middle aged woman with toddler twins to spend time with let alone there life with. That is not an excuse for my affair because there is no excuses. It was wrong anyway you look at it.....I'm just telling you where I was at. I knew my xmm for 13 years prior to the affair. He use to work for my x-fiance when we had met. We had stayed friends through out the years and worked together again before anything had happened between us. It had been almost a year of not working together before it happened.
Xmm knew me my background my life and all I had gone threw with my x-fiance and x-husband. I guess it was comfortable due to our friendship and history. regardless again it's not an excuse it was frame of mind.

My x-husband cheated on me. I knew he had cheated on me, but was never able to get the proof and it was not until a couple of years after I kicked him out that he let it slip out on the time he had been with is now girlfriend that it was all put together. My x-fiance also cheated on me and I did catch him and that is why I never married him.

It sounds as if we BOth misunderstood each other and for that I apoligize. I am not sure what you mean by the comment you say I made that if you don't like the comment to bad as that is not my style but I will come back after I find it and clarify it for you.

I have a 4 year old little girl that is my OC. We are in NC and it's best for our stitch.

I've posted on this site for quite a few years. I actually tried to use the MB princliples in my own marriage before we split up. I bought the books and was familar with the site when this all happened with oc. I do have my feelings about C versus NC but I don't judge someone for there actions. It's not a perfect world. I do however express my feelings regarding the subject and insight where possible misinformation could be taken but I have made some in real life friends with several BW's with and without oc's and with and without contact. There are also some Bw's who can't get past my past and that is okay too....I will go look for that comment made by me and see what my intentions where when I made it and clarify.

Okay I was not saying that if you did not like my comment to bad, I was saying that it's too bad for any ow (any parent really) who tried to put demands on a BW on any type of visation with the spouse of the MM. To bad if she does not like it. She helped create this mess and so therefore she must TOO accept that and take the good with the bad. It is what it is.

I did not mean at all to bad if you did not like my comment. Again not my style. I would not be that

Moral dilemna of a lifetime. You got that right. Wow.

So......YES, you should be involved in the life of the other child.
BUT NOT at the expense of your wife or kids. They come first. Its what the WIFE needs and decides to do.

Humans have responsibilites to EVERYONE on earth to a certain extent. But the responsibilities to their immediate family overrides any others.

Imo.

A child is your immediate family...and he/she is due as much consideration as your wife/kids IMHO.

And in all honesty, while I stand by my original post, I am fully aware that if I sit and listen to reasons why you posted as you did, I would understand it completely.

Its a tough, tough call for me.

Hey Marysway! Sorry, I did misunderstand you. You shouldn't feel bad about having a relationship with someone else if you were not living with H at the time.

Your time alone/separated is to do what YOU want and find out what your needs are. Nothing wrong with having a little fun.

I had a friend who was dating a MM and got pregnant. She was posting on TOW for advice, and I was reading her posts. That's where I remember your name from. Didn't mean to upset you, I didn't realize that it was so long ago. I apoligize. You can whip me if you want!!! LOL

time ot get a better class of friends and not involve yourself in that type of filth over on TOW.

Naw.........If I did not care I would not have taken the time to explain. These are sensitive Issues. I KNOW. TOW was a long time ago (seems like longer than it was). It was the first place I found to deal with what I was going through. We ended up leaving that board and starting a board for both bw's and ow's going through it and believe it or not it worked for the most part some did not and that is to be expected then the board just turned into a mommy board which was great as we were all getting past it and moving on.

If it was that long ago then I probally know your friend. Or heard of her.

No hard feelings.

Marysway, It was "Manda1970" she was and still is married. Had affair with MM. He got both her and his wife pregnant 2 weeks apart!

She has NC with MM and H adopted the child. He was wonderful to her and helped her through her difficult pregnancy (bedrest) as if he were the natural father.

MedC..........Why do you always have to be so negative? What gives you the right to judge me by who my friends are? Obviously my friend and her H worked it out. Isn't that what we're all striving for? To make our marriages work and better them?

Just because you are a "straight Talker" doesn't give you the right to be mean................GEEZ!

you just don't get it. YOU should be judged by the company you keep. IMHO, if you have adulterers for friends, you are no better than them. And your "friend" was not DATING a married man...she was HAVING AN AFFAIR with a married man. There is a huge difference. duh.


Geez.

All you ever do on this board is put people down!

You are very bitter and it appears that you have not gotten over whatever happened to you. If I'm correct (and I may not be) did your wife/girlfriend cheat on you? Does that make you as bad as her because you know her? You need to get on with your life and find a woman for companionship/whatever.

You're an angry person who, so much as I have seen in the short time I've been here, have nothing constructive to say.

I don't have adulterers as friends. I had one friend who made a mistake. Where do you get off saying that I should be judged by the company I keep? You've got nerve! I'll give you that much!

Would you abandon a friend that made a mistake just because you didn't agree with it?

You have nothing better to do........I feel sorry for you.

well, first off, your post is against the TOS. I suggest you edit it before the mods do.

Next, I do think anyone that has a friend that is an active adulterer should be judged for their friends. If she is no longer an adulteress, then there is no reason to not be friends with her. But since it appears from your posts that you maintained a friendship while your friend dated (puke) her married affair partner, I would call into question your morals and judgement.

I would and have abandoned friendships with people that were choosing to cheat on their spouse...and I informed their spouse too. The best man at my wedding was cheating on his wife and I gave him one week and one chance to tell his wife...when he balked...I did. His wife thanks me till this day. He of course sees it differently...and I don't give a hoot.

And please don't feel sorry for me. I wouldn't trade my life for anything. If I ever find myself trolling the waters of the TOW I will know I hit rock bottom.

Wow! You really seem to have your nose in EVERYONE'S business

I have NEVER posted on TOW, just said that I read my friend's posts. I don't like that site either.

Besides, who made you the ruler of the world?

I never said you posted over there.

I offer my opinion. If you don't like it...tough doodie.

eta...good job editing your post.

I think you need to find a better support system than a mostly women's forum dealing with cheating husband's and their OC.

I have not read any of the other topics/forums. I'm sure there's men on there. But seriously........Get a life!

I'm certain my life is very full by any standard.

Hurt I do remember her! she had another baby with her husband didn't she? She was on bedrest the entire pregnancy!

Medc, I know this girl and she was not looking to continue her affair. she did what she needed to do to make her marriage work and was a straight talker. Just as I am not proud of my actions during that time it does NOT mean I will forever wear that "A" on my shirt. I think you know from my posts by now that I don't condone affairs at all.....and trust me when I first went on TOW I knew pretty much from the get go who wanted to continue there affairs and who just needed some support with the whole oc thing. Although I DID get what you were saying but that is why I asked her who the gal was before I said anything one way or the other.

Hurt I think the way you put it to me is why he reacted the way he did. Am I right medc?

I am so glad that her and her husband are doing so well still. Didn't she post here too? When you talk to her tell her marysway said hello.