OK so I understand the whole.. the BS does take responsilbility for the state of M BEFORE the A but not the WS decision to have the A.

But after all the talking is done and you HEAR all the reason that LED UP to the A, it sounds like the BS fault he or she allowed things to get so bad in the marriage that he/she felt they had no choice. And yes, I know there were other choices such as counceling, seperate, divorce etc. But I see posts and feel myself the heavy burden of blame.

The one thing I cannot seem to overcome is the fact that it went on so long and I didn't know. I feel so stupid.

LynnLee,

I am struggling with this one as well. I understand that I am responsible for things in the M that led up to the A and I am willing to own that, but I am not willing to let WW justify the A. She keeps saying things like 'I am truly sorry that is what it took to wake you up'.... She just won't be remorseful for what she has done. Admittedly, I was neglectful of her prior to the A but I refuse to take responsibility for the A. She owns that and I'm not letting her off the hook. She decided to cheat on me, our daughters, our family, our history and our future. I keep telling her that she should have separated or divorced me first. I'm not changing my feelings on this one. Heading towards Plan D at the moment....

Mindshare

The WS and the BS are each 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. The WS is 100% responsible for the A.

My WW hit 100% of my emotional needs. I hit 20% of hers and not that well. I understand that caused her to feel unloved. For a time, I felt the same way you do. I felt like I caused her to stray. I understand WHY she strayed but the does not justify it at all.

LL,

There are plenty of folks who M is not that great who choose NOT to have an A. You didn’t and you were in the same M. My fWW A lasted the same length of time and I just found out in April ’08. I was WAY too trusting. I get blasted on here, but that’s why I had to take back control. I feel blame for not being as good of a husband as possible, but none for the A itself. That was her choice and she is paying for it dearly. In my case, I think my fWW thought I was some wimp/chump and no matter what went on, she could just say she was sorry and I would not break up the family(3 kids), much less retaliate. She was dead wrong. I swept her off her feet, retaliated w/ a vengeance. I feel so free now that I’ve moved on to my own apt and filed for D. I feel so powerful where as when she told me I had NO CONTROL of the situation and that was really scary. Its scary to walk out. Its scary to file for D when you’ve been w/ someone for 14+ years. Overcoming that fear made me stronger than I’ve felt in years. I will not stay w/ and adulteress. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. NOT IN THIS LIFETIME! NO REGRETS!

Try not to base your decisions or actions on whether or not your spouse feels remorse. I felt EXACTLY the same as you. I felt like I was wronged, I deserve to have my butt kissed. I felt like she better be really sorry for what she had done and show it or else! Then I read Surviving an Affair. A lot of the book made a lot of sense. I hit page 84 and that page sticks in my mind. I have quoted it in a few other postings. Basically it says that while a spose may feel remorse and express it, not all do. Don't expect it. This is hard since you were the one wronged. If you have not gotten the book, I recommend it.



I hope you heading toward Plan D is not because of the remorse issue. Hang in there with it and let time pass and read SAA. Marriages have become too disposable. If you still love her, fight for it. I am going through hard times now too. I feel like giving up but I realize my moods are still going up and down. Let things settle before making any decisions. Once liars, errr lawyers get involved, R is harder. They push your buttons and fight to win. They do not want R. R = No money; D = $$$$

I feel like giving up but I realize my moods are still going up and down. [/quote]

The mood thing...the rollercoaster of emotions, I know NOW that they are going to change from day to day and that's VERY normal. It's funny to go back and read my own posts somedays and think....oh, my gosh, did I really write that??? lol

CJ,

I've read SAA. I'm familiar with page 84 and as soon as I read it I thought to myself that I am going to have a major problem with this. I understand the concept that some may never express remorse. I'm not sure I can live with that. I understand that means that Plan D may be in affect but that's just the way I feel. So far she has put all of the blame on me for the state of the M prior to A. I won't have that either. We had issues and we were emotionally disconnected, I'm willing to own my part in that but she is responsible as well. Personally, I think the cheater needs to hang onto that view of the M prior to the A otherwise the guilt that comes along with no longer being able to justify the A will crush them. I think that is what my WW is afraid of. I'm no pscyhiatrist so I could be wrong of course...I've been wrong before!

MindShare

LL,

So Dday was 5 months ago. Still riding that roller coaster waaay up and waaayyy down again. Amongst those emotions is the "my fault" emotion swirling and bubbling up to the surface every once and a while.

That "my fault" emotion is BULL POOP!!

For some reason it's in there with the grief, humiliation, loss, anger, etc, etc.... or maybe it is a combination of a couple emotions that makes you feel something very close to the "my fault" emotion.

BUT IT IS NOT!!!!!!! NOT BY A VERY LONG SHOT!!!!!!!!!!

That emotion will go away as the anger and rage emotions start to surface, when you see what a far reaching and life changing event this is.

Like it was our fault for the twin towers coming down.

""The one thing I cannot seem to overcome is the fact that it went on so long and I didn't know. I feel so stupid.""

My wife carried on her A for 3 FRICKEN YEARS!!! He was from out of town and would fly in every month or so for a sexual celebration at various Best Westerns, during the week of course, while I was at work. Then calling and emailing each other constantly.

I HAD NO CLUE!!! NOT EVEN A HINT, until I discovered some un-deleted emails in her account.

I was too trusting, and she could compartmentalize so very well.

ANYWAY, you have much too much real gut wrenching emotions to deal with, my dear, so forget about that "my fault" one. It was not your fault!

IMHO

kirk

I got depressed when I read Harley's book His Needs/Her Needs which is a lot of what's in the Surviving an Affair book. It's a threat that if you do not meet these very important needs of your spouse that they WILL look elsewhere, or the chance is great that they will - don't want to misquote.

That just makes me sick. People stray for different reasons. Some just like the thrill and excitement of sex with someone new in an unfamiliar place. When you have been married a while (past the 7 year itch) things get boring, the same - that's life, that's marriage. It's both spouses job to spice things up and change....not just the BS. This makes the BS feel as though it was thier fault. This crushes their self-esteem and selfworth.

Some people do not have an all spiced up marriage everyday but still do not go out and cheat.

I'm pretty sure that's not exactly what it says (copy not in front of me, but that's not the take home message I have from it). What I get from it is that there is potential for infidelity in all of us, but there are a number of factors that determine whether you have an affair or not. One of those factors is how your ENs are being met. This is just one factor. There are also things like love busters, personal boundaries etc. which are equally important. For example, many people have had affairs even when their top ENs are being met by their spouse. They just have crappy or nonexistant morals.

The point of meeting all ENs is to remove the unmet need factor from the equation.

I felt like you did when I first started reading SAA, that it was a threat - do these things or your marriage will fail. What I discovered though was that it wasn't a threat, but instead the TOOLS to make your marriage great. The message I've gotten is that if you listen to him, learn the skills well and do them, you'll be so irresistible to your spouse that cheating won't even enter their mind. Plus when you're working at meeting their needs, they naturally want to meet yours too. Things can upward spiral just as they downward spiral.

In the beginning, I also felt some guilt. Our marriage was a mess before d-day. That doesn't excuse the choice he made. Now I feel sad that we had let things get so bad, that we didn't have the skills to make a great marriage before, and that it took an A to hit us upside the head and wake us up to the mess we were creating. Notice I said WE, because we both played a part in the situation. NOT that him choosing to have an EA was ok, but that I participated in allowing our marriage to deteriorate to a point where it became possible. I'm grateful for the lesson I've learned (and won't forget), and for finding MB and learning the skills I needed to develop the marriage I've always wanted. I'm also grateful that I caught the EA before it turned to a PA.

Let me ask this of the BS who are struggling with this concept...

If unmet ENs was the only criteria fro having an affair, did your WS actually do everything to meet your ENs so well that you simply didn't have to look outside your marriage for getting them met?

I ask this because in a typical marriage, neither spouse is meeting 100% of the other's ENs. If it is unmet ENs that leads to afffairs, then why didn't I have one and my wife did?

The biggest trouble in our marriage prior to her affair was the fact that we spent so much time apart. This was by her choice, not mine. She was in fact doing very little in the way of meeting my ENs for quite a while before the affair began.

SF was an on again off again proposition at best with periodic spells when it was fantastic followed by droughts that lasted for months.

DS was almost nonexistant. I have done my own laundry and much of hers for 20 years. If we have a real meal at home, it is one that I cooked. When we go to our vacation property together I pretty much wait on her hand and foot. I do the cooking, the dishes, the cleaning up of the cabin and the yard work.

I give her foot massages for crying out loud and have for years...

If anything drained her LB$ it was not unmet ENs but Love Busters. My AOs were probably the biggest problem but just like a WS uses perceived problems with the BS as fuel for entitlement, I used her IB and lack of SF and DS as fuel for resentment and entitlement for my anger.

But in the long run, it wasn't my failure to meet her ENs that led to the affair but her own selfishness. It was a fantasy that played out in her head where she got to live in a bigger house in the country and be the belle of the ball and escape from the day to day grind of family, work, church and other commitments.

Once she began spending 3 or even 4 days per week living a life of being on her own and doing whatever she wanted she basically was headed for an affair and who it was with was simply a matter of blind luck. I became a huge source of stress in her life because I was a reminder of the real world she came from with kids, grandchild, work and other commitments that prevented her from being free to do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted.

She was in fact a renter rather than a buyer.

If unmet ENs was the determining factor in having an affair, then I should have had many. It was something else that stopped me.

And that is the bottom line. There is nothing I can do to make sure my wife remains faithful. She has to do that herself.

Unmet ENs can cause a person to be unhappy, but it is something in themselves that turns that unhappiness into resentment and entitlement.

JMO.

Mark

Mark,

I'm with you for the most part on what you are saying. My EN's were not being met prior to the A either and I didn't cheat!

That said, I don't think that my WW went 'looking' for the A. It was a co-worker and I think that due to the state of our M she was vulnerable to it. Sure there are waywards out there that go looking for A's but I think there are many...many that slide down the slippery slope when they are vulnerable. Don't get me wrong, I am not excusing or justifying. They allowed boundaries to be crossed. In fact, I am probably on the way to Plan D right now due to the affair. I'm just trying to make the point that I don't think she was looking for it. She allowed it to happen though and is not showing the kind of remorse and acceptance (ownership) of what she's done to us and our family that I need in order to work through it.

MindShare

My fWW tried the same crap. I wasn't meeting ALL her needs. As if she was meeting ALL of mine. I was meeting 9 out of 10. So plan D feels ok to me. Its much better than struggling for years in a marriage that had other people in it. Of course, I'm coming away smelling like a rose. I'm MUCH better off financially since my fWW was stay at home. Also, most of her family, all of my family, and all our friends took my side even though I had a RA. I got to burn her back a little w/ no consequences to speak of.(Broken soul, I know the 2x4's) Anyway, screw it, I feel so much better now that I am free!!!
She is living my worst nightmare. I had wayward tendancies but would logic through the fallout and say "Hell no!" It can't be worth it. She is miserable. She has 50+ years of miserable regret. Thats punishment!!! That's hell on earth.

I think these articles by Dr. Harley are relevant to this discussion:




There's another one I can't find at the moment about how meeting your spouse's ENs is not the end-all and be-all solution to preventing an A, because then it's like a threat: 'Meet my ENs or else I'll cheat'

Dude,,,,,

Has anyone ever told you this is a marriage BUILDING site????? Since you are so "FREE", wouldn't your energies be better spent living your "FREE" life instead of trying to "help" people who want help with their marriages???? In fact you sound so JUBERIANT AND ALIVE, I would think you would have a million better things to do, than to keep reliving the heck your WW put you through, that is if you truly are happy and free....

JMVHO....

not2fun

and then …


I think doth protest too much there DUDE. Like someone wrote, if you’re that HAPPY and FREE, why are you spending your time here posting and still reading?

I would suggest that you still haven’t found peace, but moreover are still trying to re-live your RA buzz because once that’s gone, all you have left is regret and more STUFF to deal with because of it.

A Revenge Affair is not the answer Dude, and unfortunately (or fortunately) the membership is seeing it in your continued posts (anger & resentment).

I hope you do come to a place where you really can be free of it all.

God Bless,
Jo

Well here's the current deal with Dude...He now has a GIRLFRIEND while he is still MARRIED...Know what that makes him? That's right, an ACTIVE WAYWARD SPOUSE...So of course he *feels* all "HAPPY and FREE" right now...That is a LIE that all ACTIVE WAYWARDS tell themselves...But it WILL come home to roost and it won't be pretty when it does...The saddest part is that Dude and his STBXWW have 3 children, that now have two wayward parents...Bless their little hearts...They will grow up very morally confused and live out that moral confusion with poor decisions of their own, and Dude will stand back watching in HORROR and realizing that that is EXACTLY what he and his wife modeled for them...Such a very sad story..."Happy and free", indeed...

Mrs. W

Didn't know that, Mrs. W. Very very sad, those poor children.

I actually feel very bad for Dude. All of his posts emit a tone of torturous agony, regardless of the words he writes. His pain is very, very real and he's struggling to deal with it. I believe his RA was a part of that and it clearly didn't work and just created more pain. I've been in that pit of dispair. Not the RA part, but definitely the dispair part. He's here to try and find his way out - like the rest of us.