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The people that you feel I should hate

Whoah ! road !

Where was I saying you should hate anyone? !

You offered your job history as an analogy of a marriage after an affair right ? I am GLAD you got beyond that loss of a great job, but I don't think the situations compare.

In a marriage you have live with and love and be vulnerable to the person who hurt you so very badly. Everything you do together is reminder of the hurt and loss.

In those cases I do not believe time alone , even ten years, heals.

But thanks for your comment.


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Dear Bob Pure

I've read through this post from the beginning. I've also seen bits of your previous posts and your wonderfully wise and supportive posts in other people's threads.

And I don't know where you're going with this one or what you wantin reponse. I am not a 2year + or even close, (and am already up against the acceptance/settling issue) so am not qulaified to repond, by the terms you've set..

But you've had several responses to the effect that you should consider knuckling down and going back to MC, which you seem to have avoided. I sees from your early threads that you have little respect for the ones you've encountered, and that you've started some kind of counselling service yourself...

But I also see inconsistencies from earlier in this thread..and times when you recognised that your FWW was trying in ways that you hadn't recognised but seem since to have forgotten/decided to ignore.

If you're asking for some honest input, and not just people to tell you you've done everything right and deserve better (which is true!), I think you need to accept the fact that, despite all that you have done to date and the FACT that you are a resource for so many here, you cannot control the outcome of this alone - you cannot be an equal partner in a recovering marriage AND the only "EXPERT" (in one that seems to need an expert, and someone with an objective perspective to provide a safe space for both sides of the story to be heard). I think you need to humble yourself and find an MC.

Best wishes

Aprill


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bobpure

I felt you were comparing apples to oranges when I wrote that last response.

Also to me your sounding like a jail house lawyer: hate.

Hate, mad, angry, dislike, can't stand, all mean that you will let someone's presence affect more than it should.

"You offered your job history as an analogy of a marriage after an affair right ?"

Wrong. It was to show how pain fades with time. I also had to let work based friendships die with the loss of that job. Many other things were lost with that job besides financial well being. Not everything is permanent in life. But I've had good things and good times happen since then. I don't know where my life will take me.

I don't know if I will ever land a good paying job again. It saddens me when I think that I may never achieve or exceed my past income level again. That does not stop me from engineering a financial come back for the future.

"that loss of a great job, but I don't think the situations compare"

Never said or even thought that they did.

"In a marriage you have live with and love and be vulnerable to the person who hurt you so very badly. Everything you do together is reminder of the hurt and loss."

Everything does not have to be a reminder. One chooses to use everything as a reminder.
Everything can be judged on it's own merits.

"In those cases I do not believe time alone , even ten years, heals."

Time has removed the pain of losing that job. I worry about financial success now because I not on track to reach it.

It seems these words of yours are showing how you are coming here to get approval to seek a divorce.

What happened in my marriage happened in 1981. Was my decision to separate, there was no OM, my wife didn't want to. Short version. We separated, during this time my wife dated, I didn't know, then divorce went through. We decided to remarry shortly after the D went through. The thing is my W told not much happened, nothing that would upset me. She kept a piece off jewelry that the OM gave her. Repeatedly asked her to get rid of it. She wore it for one or two years then stopped and she told me it was gone. This jewelry would reappear every few years, this made me believe that "the nothing much went on" was not true. This reappearance would get me to question her on what really happened.

This reappearing and questioning every few years would result in me finding out that more went on then she originally led me to believe. Until 2004 I found out that they had gone all the way. Every few years each time she would admit to more but be very brief on details and then by the next day get hostile when asked to talk about it anymore.

Until 2004 every time that jewelry would appear and new detail would be revealed, I would be able to forget and move forward. Now since 2004 I want to know everything that went on. My W won't talk. I have not been able to let go not knowing since then.

All these years since 1981 she has and is a good wife, mother, and, DIL.

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Never said or even thought that they did.

Well it seems we're both putting words in each others mouths, I think I'll quit while I'm behind smile


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I think you need to humble yourself and find an MC.

Hi Aprill !

Thank you SO MUCH for investing your time in us !

I do not consider it humbling AT ALL to attend MC. Finding on is horrendous here in the UK.

I spoke with another one, probably the 9th I spoke with yesterday.

Another person with conflict minimisation as primary objective rather than upholding the marriage.

If I could find a f2f MB-style MC I'd be there in a shot.



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Never quit. If ahead they will over take you. Behind you will never catch up.

I never held that job loss to be even close to having a WS. But it just wasn't any run of the mill job that one would not care if the would of lost it.

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OK, my friend, I'll throw this out to you again. Look up imago therapy, find a shrink, and type in your location. I have no idea whether any of these folks are close to you in the UK, but I KNOW they have to go through a lot of training to be certified imagop therapists. Plus, don't mean to be sacriligious here, but MB is an extremely behavioral approach, and if one or both Ss have deeper issues I don't personally believe MB alone can always do the trick. Imago therapy is a combo of behavioral techniques like MB, but also gets into the unresolved FOO issues that might be holding your W back. It can't hurt to contact or even meet with one of these MCs to check them out. Good luck! CV

ps. road, the one thing about your job analogy that doesn't quite compare is this, IMHO. A job that goes south is tough, and a loss, but you can choose to avoid driving the route past it if you absolutely have to. When a BS is with a FWS that hasn't earned recovery the BS is living with those triggers and bad memories daily. If my H didn't go into the trenches with me, sometimes kicking and screaming BTW, and allowed me to purge myself of the pain he caused, it would be he!! living here. Our whacky OW put things like our bills in her name. So every 6 months or so I get something from the energy co. that says "Ms. OW" on it. So I got one the other day. Didn't even flinch. Just handed it to H and said, "Will you please take care of this. That crazy B put her name on this too." My H earned my not flinching anymore.

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This job was along an interstate right after you cross a large suspension bridge. Everyday life did not require me to go there. Family functions, road trips, vaction, hunting, fishing, camping did.

Should I of added an hour to my already long trips?

Then how would I explain to friends, family, and, relatives that I refuse to take the most direct way, we have to turn a three hour trip into a four hour trip, all because it hurts poor me to drive by where I got fired?

My point was it takes time to heal/forget. It took me ten years
not to hurt when I would drive by there. But, time did it's job.

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Bob, you're stuck. Kiddo, you've been stuck since the moment you Plan A'd and boundaried Squid back from the brink...then stopped dead. There was work to be done at that point, and that work's never been started.

A marriage that has enough gaps to let something like this in, is a marriage that needs to be re-engineered. The marriage, period. The two of you and the way you relate to each other, not just Squid and her character failings. Both of you. Bob's role in this marriage needs to be re-engineered too.

Trouble is, that process needs third-party help, as Aprill pointed out. It needs someone to facilitate a dialogue, and mediate conflicts, and identify patterns and hold a person's feet to the fire when that's needed. It needs someone who's trained in doing those things and has experience of doing them.

Whether they're MB-certified is frankly irrelevant to whether they can get you and Squid talking on a completely different level to what you've always done. It's like fussing over the plumber's testimonials when the kitchen is knee-deep in water and you don't know where the stopcock is. Bob, your marriage is knee-deep in water and all that matters is that someone knows how to take the first steps to getting you out of the crisis.

This 'MB-style counsellor' requirement sounds to me like an avoidance strategy. You know perfectly well that MB is a US programme, pretty much unheard-of here in the UK, and the chances of finding a therapist who's even heard of it are remote. Swearing that you'd see a MB-style counsellor 'like a shot' is easy, because you know you won't find one. If you were really determined, I doubt if anything would stop you from phone counselling with the Harleys themselves. The time difference is even less at this time of the year too...

However, I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a body of reasonably good 'ordinary' therapists in your part of the country who could provide a safe environment to get you and Squid talking. Whether they're MB or Imago or CBT-enthusiasts or neo-Freud or School of Neuro-macrame, the important thing is that they're able to get you both to start thinking differently and opening your minds up and sharing yourself honestly with each other.

What's more, I think CV hit on an important point about MB not working in some situations. From all you've said, Squid comes across as being someone who has been forced to protect her vulnerabilities by reinforcing a very hard shell. She's not going to drop that easily, maybe not at all, and with that defence in place, MB - which is largely about admitting needs and therefore making yourself vulnerable to rejection - simply isn't going to work. You need different kind of help to sort out that fundamental problem in your marriage before you can even think about MB.

BTW, when it comes to UK counselling, I've built up a wealth of experience. Over the last six years, we've used the services of one psychiatrist, two psychotherapists, about four Relate counsellors and one independent couples counsellor.

Of course, they varied in how helpful they were. None of them believed in keeping the marriage going at all costs, but none of them - not one, not even the ICs, not even Relate - remotely suggested that we bail out of the marriage if it got too painful. That was despite a situation which involved multiple affairs and many years of prostitutes - a pretty much grimmer sitch than your own, I think you'd agree? The attitude each took was that, if I was prepared to grit my teeth and try to make it work, they were willing to do their best to help.

None of these people did damage, and all helped in some ways. The last couples counsellor was superb. This time last year, I was talking to a divorce lawyer and was on my way out. Right now, my marriage is astonishingly happy, beyond what I could ever have imagined. It took a third party with skills of listening and confronting, to get us there.

You don't need a specialist. You just need a professional. But you need SOMEONE.

TA






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But you need SOMEONE

You know what TA ? That's a big part of the problem.

I don't need anyone. I don't trust anyone. I can't rely on anyone.

self-actualization gone mad.

We're in a fix, make no mistake.


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Bob, why don't you call Dr Harley? You never know, he might offer you some words of wisdom even if they are not what you want to hear. Or ask TA where she counselled?

Is Squid as miserable as you are at the moment in your marriage?

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I don't need anyone. I don't trust anyone. I can't rely on anyone.

Then I think the problem you need to start with is YOU.

You don't trust Squid, for perfectly rational reasons. Extrapolating from Squid to the rest of humanity is NOT rational, as I'm sure you recognise.

Let's assume you walk into a therapist's office - just you - no Squid - and tell him/her about what's happened to you. What do you fear will happen? Where is the sense of distrust coming from?

TA


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TT, Bob and I are at opposite ends of the country; consulting down here wouldn't be feasible!

Bob, I'd like to suggest that you think about approaching your local branch of Relate.

If you've talked to Relate, you've probably worked out that they're pretty woolly on the moral issues; a Relate counsellor would cut out her tongue before she'd hint that there was anything wrong about having s*x with someone else's spouse in Room 361 of a cheap motel. They take the idea of non-judgementalism to depressing lengths.

However, there is a benefit to this. The experience is safe for the WS. They're not being judged or criticised or made to feel bad about what they did. The whole subject of their infidelity is not on the agenda.

Infuriating and unfair though this is for the wounded BS, it's possibly the best way to get a hugely defended WS into a counselling situation at all. And you need them to get into that environment so they start learning some emotional vocabulary and beginning to understand what is expected of a person in a long-term committed relationship. They get to learn the fundamentals of listening respectfully to the other, and they learn that it's not OK to withdraw, or behave disrespectfully to their spouse, or cross boundaries where they have no right.

I looked on Relate as starter-therapy. It was never going to be able to solve the bigger problems, but to solve those problems we needed both of us to have skills that FWH certainly didn't have, and Relate gave him a safe space to start acquiring them.

Our last (non-Relate) couples counsellor was a soft-voiced rottweiler - she made it plain that what H had done had caused huge damage, and she firmly made him face his own responsibility for fixing it. There were many times when I know he wanted to walk out of her office, but he didn't. He stuck it out because he'd learned enough to know that she was talking sense, but it took us five years to get to that point.

Relate's not MB, but it has a useful place in the re-education of the WS.


TA



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Hey there Bob,

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I remember how dark it was for you back in the day... 'nuff said.

You know, I am grateful that I hit rock bottom. Getting to the point at which I felt utter despair was the only way for me to lose my defenses, so that I was prepared to reach out and try something really, really new and weird.

I am a private person, a natural skeptic (a scientist...), therapy to me was American and self-indulgent and just not done in my family. For me to become a member of this forum, to read books about relationships, to go to an IC and then an MC, was hugely different and risky.

When my life seemed ok (not brilliant but not terrible), I would not have considered doing those things. Now, I see what a gift I had from learning those skills. I feel led. I feel that even in my despair I was being cared for in a way that I didn't understand at the time. Writing those words shows how I have changed.... the me of 5 years ago was a spiritually disinterested atheist.

Bob, my impression is that inside you know what you want. From your MB posts, I see that when things have worked well for you, they did because you acted from listening to the quiet voice within. I don't think anyone here can help. I think its about you listening, and letting go of the outcome.

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Hi TA !

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You don't trust Squid, for perfectly rational reasons. Extrapolating from Squid to the rest of humanity is NOT rational, as I'm sure you recognise.

By "not trusting" I mean "Not depending on".
This means that I *ALWAYS* have a "plan B" for when somebody else is supposed to do something for me, and also when people tell me something unverifiable that I need to be accurate. I do not believe that everyone is conspiring against me or lying to me. I do believe people as a general rule aren't as dependable to support ME as myownself.

It's pretty tiring, but I am kind of tired of handling the consequences of other people's failure in my life. Tired of having to forgive people for easily-avoidable insults to me. I'd rather not have to rely on other people. I prefer dogs to most people, in all honesty. Never had a dog fail me. My pooch'd die rather than disappoint me.

I know it's not healthy. This is what I am reduced to. Great isn't it ? smile

I agree I probably need personal help. I must find a trustworthy counselor though. And it really is hard here in the Midlands. I can find multiple opportunities for bargain clothing and bulk-buy frozen chips but little obviously high quality counsellng.

Its not often I wish I lived in a city but...

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Let's assume you walk into a therapist's office - just you - no Squid - and tell him/her about what's happened to you. What do you fear will happen? Where is the sense of distrust coming from?

I fear making myself vulnerable to somebody who offers me absolutely no help in return. I do not relish getting emotionally naked with anyone face to face, and it bloody well better fix me.

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Relate

I have spoken with relate. I interviewed 3 counsellors.

One was a fellow of perhaps 25, and unmarried who kept referring to his primary objective being "conflict management".

The second was the branch manager, nice chap but who didn't counsel much.

Third was a senior counsellor whom I discovered was in an affair with my brother's boss.

I do not have a great hope for Relate, sorry TA.

I did see a lady from marriagecare that seemed nice, and competent but their diaries are incredibly full. Odd sessions are possible but not a planned sequence.

I've started looking for Imago therapists at CVs word, but only see London so far.

I need a local paid counselor who is married, close to our age and...with a guarantee of success smile

* sigh *

I work for a great company. They offer all kinds of support. I might just phone their nut-job line later to see what serves they can offer me.

Delighted you seem so well TA by the way smile Who'd a thunk that ?


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do not relish getting emotionally naked with anyone face to face, and it bloody well better fix me.

Good golly, Bob!

That's a humongous sense of entitlement you've got there.

MC won't fix you, Silverback.

Squid CANNOT provide the tools or the energy enough to fix you.

Your children can't.

Only YOU can do that.

Remember when...a LONG time ago (not to be mistaken with 2Long a time ago) when I told you that our futures are NOT guarenteed to us? That we may not end up pruney old shrivels in rocking chairs on our porches? I said that we had a vision of how we wanted our lives to be and one of the best things I could do for MYself was to let that not-set-in-stone future go? You agreed with me on that one.

Bob, when you let got of the future-not-cemented-in-place, what did you grasp instead?

I think you tried to grasp Squid and your marriage - and I think it worked for awhile - till the present caught up with the future and what is - AGAIN - didn't live up to your vision.

Let the FUTURE go. It does not belong to you. You do not own it.

Where is your JOY, Bob? You had it before...when do you LIVE your blessings?

I think it needs to be found again. I think you've misplaced bits of yourself that allow you to have your joy and blessings.


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anything authored by Bob is always top of my list to read.

but after reading, i'm too exaughsted to post. and i'm late for a mtg!!

"My challenge now is to unemotionally consider what I can bear and what I cannot. I know the kids are far better off with us together than divorced, but at some point my own peace of mind has to count for something."

i think these exact same thoughts sometimes. i try to fight them off, but they do come back.

today i saw something that was sent to me about a month ago. i'll link it here later.

love has NO limits.

focus on the fact that you are choosing to love Bob.

our marriages may not ever be what we want them to be.

as the FWS, I am the unhappy one. I have so many similar thoughts/feelings as you have. i want us to be more recovered. i want us to be closer friends.

my BS is not into MB concepts, would not have had any interest in them regardless of my faithfulness.

not everyone wants to have the same degree of intimacy in their marriage.

does not matter what side of fence you are on.

but regardless, i can choose to love him till death due us part as I vowed to do.

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Bob, no truer words than the following quote by you.

"It's pretty tiring, but I am kind of tired of handling the consequences of other people's failure in my life. Tired of having to forgive people for easily-avoidable insults to me. I'd rather not have to rely on other people. I prefer dogs to most people, in all honesty. Never had a dog fail me. My pooch'd die rather than disappoint me."

I just experienced over the weekend an amazing bout(sp?) of stupidity from my FOO. Luckily now I don't get depressed over people's crap in general, just can't quite believe it when it occurs. And it is an improvement to get POed rather than down in the dumps. So I fully understand preferring dogs to people at times.

I also respect you Bob for laying out your frustration here. I stopped doing that several years back because I just didn't feel comfortable doing that here anymore. Like somehow after you reach the 2 year mark something changes in what can be shared, even though I knew inside that wasn't the case. I always respected anyname also because she didn't sugarcoat this infidelity experience. It sucks! Plain and simple. The problems in a M that are already difficult become magnified many times over because of the betrayal. H and I are a bit disconnected now because of life circumstances, and I'll be honest now. Even though I'm no longer traumatized by the infidelity, when I feel even a hint of being undervalued I can wonder if all this Plan Aing and recovery efforts was worth it. That unfortunately is the consequence for me of H's A. The whole idea of marriage kind of took a shot for me. Maybe that will be my last part of recovery, actually believing there is such a thing as a sacred bond. Knowing that I'll actually feel happy for my boys if they ever decide to get Med. However, I know that if H & I talk and reconnect I'll be OK again. Pre-A we would go through disconnects, but maybe back then it was minus my "booking it" fantasy.

You wrote:

"I fear making myself vulnerable to somebody who offers me absolutely no help in return. I do not relish getting emotionally naked with anyone face to face, and it bloody well better fix me."

Speaking as a counselor, and someone who has had my share of therapy, the hardest part is finding a good shrink and making that 1st appt. With all due respect to TA (I think) I could never see a MC who didn't understand the wrongness and the trauma of infidelity. I get that person could teach the communication kinds of stuff, and I give you credit for allowing your H the time to build up to real therapy. But knowing me I'd probably want to pummel a MC who had that attitude.

Bob, one more thing. I get you not wanting to have a 20 something MC or IC. However, it is possible to have a good MC who isn't Med. It could be someone who has worked with enough couples, and is wise enough, to understand this issue. It's like you don't have to be a recovering drug addict to be a good drug counselor.

OK, enough said. I wish you the best mate! CV

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Please Read and Watch The Video!

A son asked his father, 'Dad, will you take part in a marathon with me?' The father who, despite having a heart condition, says 'Yes'. They went on to complete the marathon together.

Father and son went on to join other marathons, the father always saying 'Yes' to his son's request of going through the race together. One day, the son asked his father, 'Dad, let's join the Iron Man together.'

To which, his father said 'Yes'.

For those who don't know, Iron Man is the toughest triathlon ever. The race encompasses three endurance events of a 2.4 mile (3.86 kilometer) ocean swim, followed by a 112 mile (180.2 kilometer) bike ride, and ending with a 26.2 mile (42.195 kilometer) marathon along the coast of the Big Island.

Father and son went on to complete the race together.

View this

I know a love of a parent for a child is probably the strongest love there is.

I want my love for my spouse to be as strong.

So yes, there are days I get frustrated. I get MAD. It's not fair!!! He hurt(and hurts) me too.

Even though my BS still does things that hurts (still will only kiss a certian way, and only a certain amount, that he is in control of. still tells me that he will not emotionally feel strongly for me ever again). Even though these things hurt me very much. I want to love him as unselfishly as that father loved his son.

I will stay married till death due us part. I will not betry him. I will not hurt him. I will not hurt our children. I will not hurt the rest of his family. And I WILL love him inspite of his inabilities.

Although our marriage will not really be a success story (unless he one day decides to come on board) I WILL BE.

I can face God and honestly state I loved my husband till death due us part.


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FL, that is such a wonderful video. I worked in a mainstream school for 6 years and last year swapped into the Learning Support Class (mainly autism and celebral palsy). What a revelation to get to know the children behind the disabilities and their wonderful parents. The video really captures the joy the young man feels!

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