SC,

The problem you are trying to solve is very reasonable. You want your H to care for you and to not hurt you. That is as reasonable as it gets.

You know the solution to this issue is the POJA. You also believe that your H does not believe in it.

I sense that he is a savy negotiator. He feels that he can get a better deal by having a win/lose negotiation than a win/win negotiation. He believes this because he can either out negotiate you or he can keep going as he knows that you have been willing to sacrifice and he has years of experience that have supported this. He does this by wearing you down.

If you are able to save your marriage it will be because you have been able to convince him that a marriage should be based on common goals that are good for both and the POJA is the habit that insures these goals are met. This is the challenge.

If he cannot agree or agrees but is not actively working on acting in ways that support the goals you know that you will continue to be hurt by him.

Like you, I also felt that my feelings were not important to my W. The starting point to progress was the agreement to the goals. Our intentions weren't to hurt the other they were to care, but, our bad habits prevented us from caring. I focused on the principles as they were without all the baggage and negative feelings. I knew if she didn't agree with the goals that I was not going to be happy. I didn't want to force her either as I knew it would be empty. I wanted, and needed, to know her true desires and her true motivations. It was through these discussions that I understood her true motivations and better understood how I was effecting her as well.

If I knew if she couldn't agree with these goals that I would begin to understand her true motivations and that I would have to walk away from the marriage as I could not agree and I wouldn't sacrifice any more.

I do know you stated a couple of reasons for not wanting to make it legal. At the same time, going down this path and not making it legal I'm not sure it really will help you solve your problem. In fact, it may open you up to more hurt.

I'm sure I've told you nothing you don't know. I also hear your pain and it makes one want to reach out to you.

I hope you are doing well today.

SC, I see this as something of a "Poster Child" sort of reasoning for for people who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, rather than be a potential source of further "consternation without answers" to you, I will bow out of this thread and only return when, and if, you decide you do want to hear anything founded upon biblical principles.

So let me simply leave you with one thought to chew on:

"This is not about being right or being wrong to me. It is a matter of a difference of opinions. I do not feel that i am "right or wrong" nor do i feel that he is "right or wrong", we both just see things differently."

As long as you continue to "believe" that absolute morals (i.e. right and wrong behaviors) do NOT exist and that all things are 'relative' to what each each individual WANTS, you will forever be kidding yourself that there CAN be "two captains" of one ship, each trying to steer the ship in the direction they WANT to go, even when those directions are quite different.

AT BEST, the ship will flounder and "get no where." At worst, it will eventually wind up on the reef, have holes torn in the hull, and eventually sink.

Think about it.

I do not understand where you got that i do not believe it absolute morals do not exist out of my post, but as i have said before posting or not posting on this thread is anyone's perogative.

I feel that with the posts others were posting to me they were trying to say that i felt i am "right" and he is "wrong" over the "friendly vs flirty" issue and that was the only thing i was discussing with my H. And that is not what it is at all.

I have discussed with him the issue that i feel it is "not right" to intentionally "hurt" your spouse and that is what he does when he "jokes around" with attractive women.

I have asked him "how would it make him feel if i "joked around" with attractive men EVERY time we were in a public place. His response is that it would not bother him, because of course if he said it would bother him then how could he justify doing it himself.

I have discussed with him that it is "poor boundaries" and where it could and DID lead. This has been (as i have said many times) a 25 year struggle for me.

Since D-day i have a couple more issues that i struggle with. IMHO he has another "poor boundary" which is the fact that he hangs out with (at work only and not on a regular basis) a guy that "I" am certain is cheating on his wife. This is another one of those things that we disagree on.

My H thinks first of all that we do not know "for sure" that this guy has/is cheating on his wife, and secondly that even if he is/was what does that have to do with us.

I have discussed this issue with him in many different ways as well to no avail, we just DO NOT agree.

The third issue is kind of pre-A and post D-day together issue. My H asked me to allow my ex-nephew-in-law to move in with us after he divorced my niece just until he got on his feet. This ex-nephew-in-law was a HUGE alcoholic and my H and the ex-nephew-in-law kind of became drinking buddies (my H drank prior to him moving in it just got worse afterwards). For three years i BEGGED my H practically every day to make my ex-nephew-in-law move out of our home. The ex-nephew-in-law FINALLY moved out about 2 days after D-day.

Well for one thing i feel that the ex-nephew-in-law living in our home was a big reason why my H and i "grew apart" enough to allow the A to happen to begin with (huge trigger) and secondly the ex-nephew-in-law nows lives 2 blocks away from where FOW lived during the A.

My H will ask me if i care if ex-nephew-in-law comes over to the house to watch the game with him or whatever and i tell H every time "you know my feelings about him being here (which are i would prefer he NOT be around) they have not changed" and yet he calls him anyway and goes and picks him up and expects me to go with him to pick him up. These days are just HORRIBLE for me, as i have to deal with the ex-nephew-in-law being around and driving right by where most of the A actually took place.

I have rambled enough but these are my reasons for wanting to leave the marriage as i feel that he "disrespects" my feelings on a continual basis and i am no longer willing to put up with it. Call it "entitlement" call it "selfish" call it whatever you will this is how i feel.

"Where" I "got the idea" was from your statement: "This is not about being right or being wrong to me. It is a matter of a difference of opinions. I do not feel that i am "right or wrong" nor do i feel that he is "right or wrong", we both just see things differently."

As I said previously, this is nothing more than an "acceptance" that all things are "relative" and no "absolute" CAN be drawn with respect to "right and wrong behavior."

If ANY "opinion" automatically confers "rightness" and eliminates "wrongness," then it makes no sense at all to want your husband to "not do" something because it "disrespects" your feelings. That very "disrespect" IS a judgment that his "disrespectful behavior is "wrong" IN YOUR OPINION. BUT, if there IS NO "right or wrong, just differences in opinion," then you are "not right" in seeking to get him to change his opinion and begin behaviors that "respect you."

You are trying to elevate "feelings" to the level of "authority" to confer "rightness or wrongness" regarding any behavior.

While we all HAVE feelings and we DO react to how we are treated, you CANNOT "blame" him for not having the same opinion you do and cannot "blame" him for any separation or divorce on the basis of your "feelings" being hurt, because by your definition there IS NO "right or wrong" to the behavior.

What you ARE doing is assigning your "feelings" as all the reason you need to separate from your marriage vows, all of the vows, whether you want to call that a "separation," "going our separate ways," or a "divorce." Again, without any "Right or Wrong," you CAN divorce for any reason or "feeling" you want to use as the reason, but you WHOLLY OWN the action because is based solely on your FEELINGS and not what IS or IS NOT right according to any other opinion or standard.



"I feel that with the posts others were posting to me they were trying to say that i felt i am "right" and he is "wrong" over the "friendly vs flirty" issue and that was the only thing i was discussing with my H. And that is not what it is at all.

I have discussed with him the issue that i feel it is "not right" to intentionally "hurt" your spouse and that is what he does when he "jokes around" with attractive women.

I have asked him "how would it make him feel if i "joked around" with attractive men EVERY time we were in a public place. His response is that it would not bother him, because of course if he said it would bother him then how could he justify doing it himself. (Underlined portion = disrespectful judgment that assigns motive that includes a "rationalization" for his doing what he "knows" is "wrong" behavior) "


SC, you DID present the "flirting" thing as a "wrong" behavior that resulted in your "feeling hurt" by that behavior. It is NOT the feeling itself that defines whether or not a given behavior by someone else is "right" or "wrong," the feelings are simply a consequence OF the behavior that IS the "causitive agent" of the resulting feeling.

Therefore the behavior in question IS either "right or wrong" on its own merit, but not because of how you might feel in response to the behavior.

"NOT wanting to hurt our spouse" is a reason for CHOOSING behaviors to either engage in or not engage in. It is a "motivating factor" for how we choose to behave, but the behavior itself IS either "right" or "wrong" regardless of how anyone might "feel about it" or "feel in response to it."


There must be some reason why you resist the idea of "right" and wrong" as absolutes. To reduce everything to one of "relativism" removes all responsibility to act in ANY way other than whatever the individual "wants to do." The reason is simple, it removes all STANDARDS by which any given behavior can be JUDGED. People don't like judgmentalism, and I understand that. But being "judgmental" is NOT what having a STANDARD that judges behavior is all about. It is NOT the "individual" who decides to be "judgmental" according to whatever "standards" they want to use for themselves AND impose on others, even IF their own standards are what would be considered "wrong" by some independent, absolute, set of standards that apply equally to ALL people.

The most common "reason" for wanting "relative" rather than "absolute" standards by which to judge behavior is because the SOURCE of the 'absolute standard' MUST be, by definition, OUTSIDE of any individual person AND applicable to ALL because the SOURCE IS the standard by which ALL people are judged.

THAT leads straight to GOD, and a whole lot of people don't like to even admit the existence of God, much less to submit THEIR own lives and behaviors to ANYONE other than themselves.


And the same thing applies to your ex-nephew-in-law. You DO NOT (according to MY standards) have an "enabler" which is what your E-N-I-L WAS to your husband's affair (as drinking buddies who wouldn't DARE to say that a given behavior was wrong) associated in any way with a "recovering marriage."

You also do not keep company with unreformed drunkards. Period.

And that IS a "right" and "wrong" sort of thing, not merely an "opinion."

"I" believe that all of "his" behaviors mentioned in the previous post are "wrong" by MY standards. They are things that i do not do and tell our children not to do.

My H believes there is "nothing wrong" with the things he does or that his behaviors are "right".

That knowledge still does not change my situation however. I still love my H and would still prefer to be married to him even if i think he is wrong.

Of course they don't change your situation, not as long as all things remain "relative."

That's the point.

KNOWLEDGE, even OF "right and wrong," doesn't do anything for anyone. It takes ACTION. It takes APPLICATION of that knowledge for the knowledge to have any benefit. And it takes application by EACH person, according to the same set of "standards," regardless of how they might feel it "makes them feel."

FH i think we are saying the same thing but maybe not.

I think my H's action are wrong. I have told him i think they are wrong.

My H does not think they are wrong.

Because of that we always disagree about these issues when they occur and it causes both of us to be unhappy.

Because we can not agree on these issues being wrong "i" am choosing to longer stay with my H.

Sounds like your H (and maybe you) don't believe in POJA.

"H, I know you and I don't agree on this issue, but I believe that it's important that we talk about it and reach a compromise that we are both happy with. Your happiness is just as important to me as my own. If either of us is left unhappy, then our marriage suffers. So can we talk about it?"

I have tried this as well.

He absolutely positively does not see that his actions, behavior, what ever you want to call it is wrong in any way therefore he thinks there is nothing to POJA because he is right and i am wrong when it comes to the friendly vs flirty.

We have compromised on both of the other issues by only letting the ENIL come over once a month and i do not go with my H to pick him up (even though my H asks me to go every time because he still thinks that it should not bother me).

On the issue with the guy at working who i think is cheating on his wife this is another one of those things that he is right and i am wrong and he thinks there is should not have to be a compromise because we do not know for sure and even so what does that have to do with us.

So my H compromised on this one and we no longer do anything with him (and who i believe is his OW) socially.

He expects you to sacrifice and you do and have.


If you truly POJA'd and had enthusiastic agreement, your H is right. You obviously did not have enthusiastic agreement and you still hold it against him. Again, you sacrifice and this time even blame your H after you said you had enthusiastic agreement.


This isn't POJA either and if it was you are still holding it against your H.

Ever wonder if your H fights you so hard because he knows you expect him to sacrifice as well?

You emotions and feelings are running the show.

I would have to admit that you are correct in the fact that i do still "hold it against him" like you said otherwise i would not let it bother me.

And i guess i do not know how to take the "emotion" out of it especially since the A.

As i said before the "freindly vs flirty" has ALWAYS been an issue to me and the other things are probably more because of the A than anything else.

I think that they all are EPs that I would like in order to feel more secure in the M. His response is that he "knows himself and it will not happen again".

Or maybe i am tired of sacrificing and am using the A as an excuse, i don't know.

All i really know is that i am miserable all the time now (which i bring on myself) and it in turn makes my H miserable and it is not good for either of us.

SC, and as I've been saying, THAT is the problem with relative morality, each person is "free" to decide for theirself what IS and what IS NOT a "good moral action" for them to take, regardless of what anyone else might think.

Beyond that, what sort of "love" is it that places one's own want's and desires above their spouse's? EVEN IF he doesn't see anything wrong with his flirting (and there might NOT be anything "technically wrong" with it), it is STILL detrimental to the health of the marriage because YOU see it as wrong and have hurt feelings as a result such activity.

What is apparently NOT "in play" in your marriage is a feeling of "sacrifice" of anything if it's "Not what I want." This can be looked at as the "essentials" of the MARRIAGE unit, not the "essentials" of the individual members of that marriage unit. But then, it also seems obvious that the "marriage unit" is not recognized either, or if it is recognized in some way, it is NOT given the respect of "absolute standards of behavior" either. It is, at best, a "live in arrangement of roommates" in a "single room" that is merely "occupied" and does not have a "life of its own."

Good luck, SC, but unless there is some willingness to seek help from a qualified marriage counselor, AND the commitment to implement CHANGES for the benefit of the marriage, I don't see a lot of hope for your marriage surviving the "self-oriented" stuff you've been dealing with.

Yes i do sacrifice a lot of the time and like i stated in my last post maybe that is the problem. I have read on here many times about the renter, free loader, and buyer theories. I do not really understand them but i think that we both fall into either renter or freeloader.

I feel i sacrifice most of the time just to "keep the peace" so to speak even though i do not agree with his decision on things.

As far as the sacrifices on the things mentioned earlier they actually were both sacrifices on MY part my H very rarely does any sacrificing.

I truly would not like the ENIL to be at our house at all. My H has simply just started only calling him and inviting him about once a month. He asks me every time before he calls if i "care" and it is always the same response, which is "i really do not want him here" and my H ususally has an excuse of well it will only boe for one night so he can watch the game with me" and then i tell him "well you know that i will NOT be around the two of you" and he says "okay" and then asks me if i will go with him to pick the ENIL up from his apartment. I did a couple of times but as i posted earlier for one thing i do not want him there and for another thing we have to drive right by where my H's A took place to get him.

On the issue with the guy that i am sure is cheating on his wife is also one of what i think is "selfishness". I would not have liked the idea even pre-A but it just so happened that the incidents happened after D-day.

My H met this guy through his work (not at the same company but worked on the same projects), then we happened to meet him again at one of DS baseball games (his son played as well). Well this guy is either lucky of has connections or something because after we met him at the baseball game he used to call my H and offer him two free tickets to things like movie premiers, outdoor concerts, a couple of sporting events, things like that.

Most of the time we would take him up on his offer and use these nights as our "date" nights and we would spend quality time together. Some times we would meet the guy at the event sometimes we would not.

Every time we met him though he had a different woman with him, a supposed co-worker. I always found this odd and mentioned it to my H but since it was a different person every time, the guy would not go home but straight from work to the event claiming his wife did not want to come, he brought his children a couple of times with a female co-worker i just kind of let it go.

However there was one time that we decided to have dinner and drinks with him prior to a movie premier one night (he invited us a lot but as i said we chose to use this as "our" time most of the time). When we arrived at the restaurant we were introduced to yet another female co-worker of his (one that i have not met before). Well let me tell you within about 5 minutes my H and I both (and that night he did admit it) were very uncomfortable and felt that they were definitely WAY more than co-workers.

After that night i told my H that i really was "positive" due to things i overheard them say (she said you never hold my hand when she saw my H holding my hand, then he said i will hold whatever you want, then she said yea but not in public) that they were more than friends and/or coworkers and that i was now 'uncomfortable being around the guy and would be uncomfortable with my H hanging out with a guy that thinks "nothing" about cheating on his wife. My H's response is "well we don't know for sure and he gives us free tickets". Because i do feel certain and i think it is morally wrong to do what he is doing i refuse to accept the tickets and my H gets upset at me because i won't accept them. He just says well it is free and we don't know and even if we do it has nothing to do with us.

So he still runs into him and the guy still offers stuff and my H calls me and asks me if i want to go and i always tell him that i do not and when he asks why i tell him that he know why and then he tells me that i am still being ridiculous and makes up some excuse to tell the guy why we are not going to take the tickets.

On the issue of the "friendly vs flirty" it is really to the point that i do not like to go any in public with my H because he ALWAYS EVERY TIME WE ARE IN PUBLIC TOGETHER has to "joke" with an "attractive woman". I go anyway just because i feel it is part of what we need to do as a married couple but i usually end up being upset by the time we get home depending on the number of or type of "joking around" he has done while we were out. And this has always happened and i have always told him (well actually i quite after a while because what is the point in saying the same thing over and over for years on end) the reason i am upset. He chooses to believe that it is my issue and that he is just friendly and it should not bother me therefore he will not change his actions.

So if these are my emotions running the show then i guess that is what it is. I do not know how to do it any differently.

SC,

I hope you understand or hear what I am saying in regards to this.

For most of your entire last post, I hear a much calmer, logical person communicating their point of view. This is much different than most of your other posts. Many of your other posts carry an edge, a battling, tone. You have this with us here on MB. I can only imagine what it is like when you and your H communicate.

I know from my experience that when I was calm and logical I was rational. When I was emotional everything was heightened and logic was very far away and my emotions became part of the problem. So, for me to become part of the solution I needed to control my emotions since I knew how they escalated everything and made it worse. Not ignore my emotions, but control them so I could express myself constructively.

In your post, the only time I sensed a change in tone is when it came to the "friendly vs flirty" paragraph. But, overall you really expressed yourself well in regards to your emotional reactions to the issues.

Also, to reinforce you and me, I have communicated before that your points of view on this are very reasonable. Its not your emotions on the points....it is the way you go about it....and you emotional reactions and how these reactions effect you and your H.

Here are a couple of other points to think about. SC, I am a BS, as well, and I also agree with you on your issues as being very reasonable so please keep this in mind in my following comments.

I guess, I am asking your Taker to recognize I am trying to help in any way I can and that there are always many points of view to things and it is our Taker that our emotional reactions tend to respond from. The Taker keeps us "whole" but it tends to do so in destructive ways.


This is where the application of the POJA by you is so important. By ensuring enthusiastic agreement your Taker is taken into consideration. With enthusiastic agreement you don't sacrifice or hold anything against anyone as your Taker's point of view is considered and is enthusiastic with the outcome of the agreement. It is win/win negotiating not win/lose and hope you aren't the one losing. With enthusiastic agreement you walk away from each agreement without resentment. It insures care for each other.


I hear you. I did the same thing. It is a lousy long term strategy. Lousy. I can sit here now and think through this and actually say I understand what I was trying to do but who was I kidding in the end. By doing this it caused me to feel this and this and this and.....and all of it was not good except for bringing short term "peace".

A committment by both to the goals of marriage, marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care, to create a lifestyle that is fulfilling to both of you, to avoid being the source of each others happiness, to become each other's greatest source of happiness followed by the application of the POJA can get you there.

If you yourself believe in these goals, you will recognize how important it is for you to control your emotional reactions and how important it is for you to not sacrifice.


Do you see how you are being disrespectful to your H here? If you believe in the POJA you wouldn't say your H not sacrificing is a negative. You would appreciate his point of view better if you did.

Also, can you maybe see his point of view here as well. Maybe he sees that you do expect him to sacrifice. He, like you, is battling to express and get his needs met. But, maybe he sees that the only way for him to make you happy is for him to sacrifice his needs being met and that makes him unhappy. Isn't there a way for both of you to be happy. The POJA.


He asks you every time. I sense he is being considerate to you. He wants to care. But, he is getting your approval. Maybe it is just me, but, there is nothing worse than to wanting to be considerate but then having someone control you that you need to get there approval.

Why can't it joint agreement that is good for both? He has a need that he is trying to get met. He knows it effects you so he asks for approval. You disrespect his consideration by saying your H always has an excuse.

Isn't this just really poor negotiation by you and your H. You aren't pusuing the POJA are you? Isn't the result of the POJA care and if you don't reach the POJA NEITHER OF YOU sense care from the other? He feels controlled and you feel unheard and at risk.


Same kind of thing here. Can you think of some ideas where you could turn this into something positive for the both of you?(and I'm not implying by using or accepting these tickets) H is communicating a need(RC) and undivided attention time with you.




On this, you can tell that this is very very sensitive and rightfully so. So, you have to be in a much better state before you can even try to negotiate here.

You are right to not go out with H until you can reach the POJA. In the past you have sacrificed so his need can be met but by his need being met it means you sacrifice and become unhappy. Why does he get to be happy at your expense?

If you do get to the point where your emotions are in control and you think you can give this an effort to negotiate, you need tell him that you want him to happy and enjoy his time out and that you want to happy and enjoy yourself as well. You recognize that he does it as some need of his is being met, but, it is at your expense and isn't there a way for you both to be happy when you go out?

My thought is to go after the goals of marriage first and see if he can agree to those. The goals are pretty reasonable for most. Some may say that they are "ideal" but isn't that what one works towards and isn't the working towards and the recognition and care that comes when you aren't meeting the goals part of what is all about.

Last, I do believe you have a very good point regarding EP. The health issues that arose kindof caused you to skip over this important step. I can understand why you feel at risk and why you feel you can never "get over it".

Dr. Harley says that people have A's because EP haven't been followed and because EN's aren't being met. He places a much bigger emphasis on a lack of EP's than on EN's not being met. He says we can control if we have an A or not. We can make that decision and put in place those EP. He also states that we can't control if we divorce or not. That we can't insure how one will treat us.

StillCrazy, I really feel for you. I am a “plain Jane” myself and thank God I have a husband who is fine with that. Frankly, your situation sounds like hell on earth.
Your WS seems to be love busting with Dishonesty (I’m not flirting, this guy I like to pal around with is not a serial cheater, these tickets were free) and Independent Behavior.
You are evidently too smart and too honest for him to be able to get away with the dishonesty, so he has to try and get you to doubt the reality that you see. So he calls you crazy. For pity’s sake, change your screen name from StillCrazy to SeeU2ClearlyNow. LOL!
Don’t argue with him about the reality you see.
You: “You were disrespectful to me and our M when you flirted with that busty 20 year old blonde at the supermarket. Please stop flirting with other women while you are married to me.”
WS: “I was just being friendly.”
You: “You were disrespectful to me and our M when you flirted with that busty 20 year old blonde at the supermarket. Please stop flirting with other women while you are married to me.”
WS: “You are crazy.”
You: “You were disrespectful to me and our M when you flirted with that busty 20 year old blonde at the supermarket. Please stop flirting with other women while you are married to me.”
When he cannot get you to back down and accept his version of what happened, you will get off the endless loop you are on now—the one where he tells you what has happened and you are forced to try and reconcile what you believe happened and his lies. That will make you crazy. But you are not crazy now.
Have you considered using the phone marriage counseling with the Harleys? That might help you to get some of this sorted out.

No offense taken I know you all are only trying to help. I am sorry if I come across as argumentative, that is not my intention. However I truly have tried to discuss these issues in a calm, rational manner with my H more times than I can even remember much less count. After a while I guess you just get PO’d about it.


Let’s face it this is a website that discusses infidelity, when I come here and post I am usually already upset about something so I post all of the bad stuff. Heck I also make my H sound like an ogre and if that were the case why would I even want to stay with him. I sometimes get “angry” the first time something happens and have AO’s regarding whatever it may be, but then later we usually always discuss things calmly and rationally.


I am not sure that I have much “taker” in me; I am much more of a “giver”. If I were more of a “taker” we would have probably been split up a LONG time ago.



On these particular issues our thoughts are so different that I am not sure that we can come up with a solution that will make both of us happy with out making one of feel like we are “sacrificing”


I agree with you that it is considerate for him to ask me first and I have told him that. However if you know the response before you ask the question and the response is ALWAYS the same and yet you do it anyway isn’t that disrespectful?


I did not have a problem with the ENIL at first. But you do not know the ENIL. Besides the fact that he is a teetotal alcoholic (it is nothing for him to drink a 12 pack per day on the weekends when he is usually at our house he drinks a 24 pack beginning at 9:00 am or so), he has broken more of our things than I can count due to being so drunk he either falls over or knocks stuff over (on a daily basis when he lived with us now it is just when he comes around), he does not have a job and did not have one for most of the three years he lived with us. My H will have him “do things” around our house that he or my DS could do and then buy him beer and cigarettes for doing them. The ENIL makes himself at home while he is at our house including just getting into our fridge and eating the last of anything he finds in there. He has let our dog loose numerous times. He tries to tell us how to raise our children (this coming from a 51 year old man who doesn’t have a job, doesn’t own anything that me and my H has not given to him and living in an apartment with his 25 year old son who I am pretty sure is a drug dealer). I could go on and on about the ENIL but I think you get the idea.

I have suggested to my H many times to invite some of his other buddies over to watch the game with him but he insists on it being the ENIL because he “feels sorry for him”.

This is EXACTLY what happens but we both refuse to budge on our rationale on these particular issues.



I have also told him many times there are other things we can do that are inexpensive, like wait until the movie comes to the dollar theater and see it then, we enjoy disc golfing and it only costs us $3.00 to go. My H just always insists that it is “ridiculous” of me to not want to accept “free” tickets because we do not know for sure and he is not “us”. So he gets angry with me when I will not accept the invitation.


You are correct that this is a VERY sensitive issue for me. I have tried for 25 years to calmly and rationally get him to see that this issue bothers me A LOT, I have gotten to the point now where I usually go but end up being miserable the whole time.


Once again you are EXACTLY correct on this too and because it did not take place right away and things “got better” according to my H there is no need for EPs because he knows himself and knows it will not happen again.

NWS my H does not believe in counseling, never has never will according to him.

As if i have not discussed the ENIL enough i just thought i would add that a lot of this was happening while we were struggling "financially" ourselves (hence filing bankruptcy).

Do you communicate like this with your H? It is very good. I felt understood and I feel like I hear your intentions. It feels like you are open to ideas and other points of view.

Do you understand your H's intentions? What do you think they are?


That is understandable. After awhile it gets very overwhelming as you see all these problems and you can discuss them and get nowhere time after time. Its clearly not due to lack of effort and it gets frustrating to say the least.

But, if there is to be a way, the only way I know if by keeping your emotional reactions in control. Some need to vent. Vent here all you can but with your H, keep your emotions in control. And, I know, it is hard to do.


Perspective is everything. I see this as a MBing site.


You have a TAKER. You just aren't as in touch with it. When you keep your emotions in control and THINK about what is occurring your logic insures your TAKER is consider. Your willingness to sacrifice is a constraint. When you sacrifice your TAKER builds resentment and takes it out on your H.


It can be done. My W and I have been here. But, you can't start here. You need to be on the same page. Your goals need to be the same. You need to believe in the POJA and practice the POJA. Start small with little things. Get some results. Gain some understandings. Control your emotions and think from his side and your side.


This is one point of view and it makes sense. I can't even point out anything that I don't agree with. I do see another point of view. Another point of view is that the two of you still haven't found a good solution. Maybe H isn't enthusiastic about it. Maybe he feels you are asking him to sacrifice his needs so you can have some of your needs met. Maybe you revisit it over and over again but you keep dealing with it in the same way. Maybe neither of you really try to understand and come up with good solutions for both. You both see your point of view and stick to it.

I do find it interesting that he asks you. He has concern. But, no agreed to solution. So the problem lingers. And any new problems just get added to the list of problems as it is seemingly impossible to solve any problems, is this right?


So he asks you but then insists on his way? If he insists why wouldn't he just do it without asking you? Is this the problem or is it something else?


Here again he asks you, insists, and in the end then turns down the tickets.


I wonder if you make him feel exactly the same way he makes you feel.

If your H could have 1 problem fixed in your marriage what would it be?


What do you think is the best way to get these EP's in place? You smart enough to know that unless he puts them in place it will happen again.

Yes i communicate like that with everyone. I have always been one of the types of people who TRY to look at all sides of an issue and be open to suggestions on doing things differntly or easier or whatever.


I am not sure what intentions you are talking about so i will have to pass on this question for now.



I will TRY to work on this as well because i do know that i do sometimes just get so upset that i do let my emotions over rule everything.


Well i must say you got me there


This one is a BIG problem of mine.


Well i would have to agree with you on this one as well only i am not sure which one it is

Maybe you revisit it over and over again but you keep dealing with it in the same way. Maybe neither of you really try to understand and come up with good solutions for both. You both see your point of view and stick to it.


Pretty much hit the nail again.


I do not know why he asks. My response has never changed but he always asks, i always say i don't want him here. My H picks him up anyway and they watch the game together and i either hang out in out bedroom reading or downstairs watching TV or i leave and go "wish shopping" because i do not like being around the ENIL.


Once again i can not answer this either. He has actually accepted some of the tickets and either gave them to other people or went with our DS.



I wonder this all the time that is part of the reason i told him i thought it was best if we went our separate ways because it was not "fair" to either of us.


Ah i misread this question and i am sorry to say that i can not answer it either. He always tells me he is happy with every thing about me and that i do nothing wrong so i have nothing to go on.

But I would have to say if "i" had to choose one, it would be the one that bothers me the most and the has bothered me the longest and that is my perception of his "flirtiness".


This hence is another reason i am choosing to part ways. I think my H will NEVER agree to EPs, never, ever, ever.