This is very painful; I would like to have as honest answer as you guys can muster.

I’m a solid professional with an outstanding carrier. I consider myself a great catch. I’m 38 and she is 35. We have been married for five years; I’m completely in love with her. Initially everything was perfect. However, routine and mundane preoccupations made us apart and we lost the desire. We have a 3 year old son that has also help take the attention from our marriage to dedicate to him. For a while it felt that we were roommates.

I have come to learn that my wife has a 16 year long relationship with a “friend”. I have learned that they keep in contact with each other periodically; I also learned that they talk in a sexually explicit way and she would sleep with him if he was closer. She might have done it already while I’m away in business.

I also know that this guy is a “player” he is the kind of guy who says all the right things and pushes all the right buttons. I believe she has feelings for him.

After I learned about this “friend”. I became completely jealous and insecure. I asked her to discontinue her “friendship” and she has not done it. My biggest problem is that I have completely lost control of myself. I see my family falling apart so I have SHOWN VERY LOW VALUE. I’m losing sleep, I’ve cried, I even asked her after sex if she had faked orgasm. I feel that she has lost all respect she had for me.

Right now I feel like the only option to get my life back is Divorce. She is not into me anymore and if she is not willing to cut this “friend” from her life it means that she likes him more. I’m fine with that and I passed the feel sorry phase. I want to get my life under control.

This past February I overheard a conversation she was having with him. She had a tone of voice that I had not heard in her since we dating. I had an awfull night thinking about this "friend".

Next day I send her an email telling her what I had overheard and I told her I was deeply troubled. She called me crying saying she only wanted to be with me and bla bla bla... she said she will not talk to him anymore. She said he was a "friend" she never told me he was an "ex".

Fast forward to October... she joined facebook... the first person she added before anyone else was this "friend". I confronted her, she igonred me.

I became even more suspicious, So I started to pay attention to some details. There was some flirting going on in Facebook messages. I saw her phone records and I realized there were calls thoughout the year... not that frequent, but they will talk and sms for periods of time. I saw one day that my wife send him a TEXT message at 4:57AM (very suspicious time) and I simply cannot recall where was I that day.

I put some pressure on her one day and I got her to admit they had sex before we met. So she did acknowledge that he was more than a "friend"

Then after I came home from a business trip I was able to recover a chat she had with him where he ask her "when are you going to jump my bones?" to which she replied... "I don't know... maybe I can plan a trip and let you know in advance"
I confronted her; she had a moment of clarity... she recognized "he makes me feel pretty"... after that she closed out again. She insists that he is a "friend".

Last monday I came home and she was talking on the phone. She pretended she was talking to her best friend but in reality she was talking to a restricted number. She had already spoken to her friend for 1 hour so my theory she was on the phone with him.

Now I'm suspicious of everything she does.

Hire a PI to track this guy down. Find out his family, work, everything. You are going to want to expose the affair to his family and friends, as well as your wife's family and friends (and yours). She'll be mad at you for doing it, but you're ready for divorce anyway, right? Exposing is the only way you will ever get her out of this affair and to start looking at you again. Read all you can on this site about affairs and exposing. Gather evidence. Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car and save the recordings of her talking to him.

Expose to everyone, all in one day. Tell them all you're fighting to save your marriage. Embarrass the h&ll out of them both, so that continuing the affair becomes too uncomfortable. Once she gets clean (withdrawal from him), you have a chance of restoring your marriage.

Oh, and in the meantime, do a great Plan A. BECOME the man she wants to be with. No more letting your marriage slip through your fingers.

You know OM's name. Do you know where he lives? If not check the phone records. If she is talking to him that much and it's a number you don't recognize, that's likely him. To verify, you can call the number(s), but be sure to program your phone to hide your identity. Maybe he will answer..."hello this is X" or it will go to voice mail and it will say "You've reached X..." If he does answer you can always pretend you dialed the wrong number and hang up. If a woman answers you can always ask if this is OM's wife...bingo. One can hope.

Keep all copies of phone records going back as far a you can since this has been going on for years. You can then do a reverse phone lookup online to see if an address pops up. If you get an address you can search other sources to see if anyone else resides there.

Since they have facebook contact, buy a key logger. Do you have access to her email account?

You will have to gather info and then expose.

I get it. I have done lots of reading here. I'm doing a very good plan A so far.

Now I have this question: She knows this guy for 16 YEARS!!! We have been married 5 years and we know each other for 7.5 years. I believe this guy is DEEP IN HER EMOTIONAL SYSTEM.

Realisticly, can she ever get over this guy??? I feel so betrayed that I'm ready to throw the towel.

If you've read a lot here, you'll know about Love Busters and Emotional Needs. Are you implementing this info into your marriage? Are you becoming the best possible choice for her? She married you for a reason; you just need to stay that person, or become it again. Show her why she married you. I'm sure there's a reason she didn't pick him; just make sure she sees why she did pick you.

The success rate for recovering from a Long Term Affair (LTA) is nil, even using near perfect MB Plans. And this is already a Very Long Term Affair (VLTA).

Your WW has known this OM longer than she has known you. She has stronger feelings for him, no matter what she says to you. She probably would have married him instead of you if he had been available at the right time. Her strong attachment to him is not going to change or go away.

I strongly recommend you call the MB counseling center and talk to an expert. Save yourself years of false hope and false recoveries.

THANKS VERY MUCH... I do not want to go on a long road to nowhere.

It has been 23 days since she told me she was going to talk to him. She still lives life as if nothing has happen. I just can't comprehend how can she live in such denial when she clearly told me she was going to talk to him and then let me know.

I will not bring the issue again to her.

However, tomorrow we have a 1st session of MC. I will have to bring the issue to the MC to see if he wishes to work with us when there is a 3rd person involved.

[quote=Aphelion]The success rate for recovering from a Long Term Affair (LTA) is nil, even using near perfect MB Plans. And this is already a Very Long Term Affair (VLTA).


Aren't you just a ray of f*cking sunshine!

My WH has been in a LTA and I am trying my darnest to save my marriage, finding this site gave me hope that this might happen and it's been really really hard.

I could just ball right now reading what you wrote.

It can't be nil !

Sorry Kingrat to interrupt your thread.

Vittoria, Each marriage is an individual just like each of us.

Aphelion, was just letting Kingrat know it is a very difficult task to do, but it is not impossible!!!

If you want to know if that # is his post office box there is a way.

Take out your OWN post office box (I hear they are private LOL) and send a CERTIFIED RETURN RECEIPT letter with YOUR post office box as the return address. Of course the letter is blank and there is no name on the envelope just your brand new return post office box #. If it comes back as delivered you have your answer.

Please keep updating us on your thread and hang in there!!!

God bless.

Jim

Aphelion

I apologize for being harsh towards your remark.
I should have counted to 100 before reacting. I need to work on that.

Jim Flint
Will post on my thread when I get more time.
Thank you

Hey Kingrat,

Keep us posted. Don't forget, the show aint over till the fat lady sings. You will need us at various stages of developments.

We went to the first session of MC. Here is a quick recap.

I explained that I could not work on fixing our marriage as long as the big elefant in the room is not take care off. I explained what I knew about the "relationship"; then:

She acknowledged "flirting" with the guy. (despite evidence showing more than flirting)
She stubbornly calls him a "friend".
She labelled the relationship a "high school relationship", actually the MC called it that way when she explained that she has know him for 16 years.
She said that she does not know what to do, she said that she doesnt feel like she has done anything wrong... i'm paraphrasing


I stated that I could not continue to live in misery. I got a feeling that the MC did not really care much for that. (I might be wrong) I said that I couldnt wait for 7 days for another session so we are going again this saturday. I don't know what for but i think I will come with force and say that withough the OM gone I cannot continue.

Heck yeah! ANYTHING that is harmful to either one of you should be considered a huge LB. She needs to understand that. How would she feel if she...hated lobster - it makes her sick - and you loved it, and you continued to cook it every night? Not the same, but you get the idea. She needs to understand what this is doing to you.

Labels are a wonderful way to draw the marrow from reality.
The "friend" is the reason for discontent in the marriage. Some "friend".
The "high school relationship" -Baloney, this is an EX LOVER.



Don't make ultimatums that you don't intend to uphold or haven't properly measured the consequences.

I advise that this post be moved to general questions II section.
Click the notify box to do this.

I absolutely mean it. I have spoken to the lawyers and I'm a 10 minute drive from retaining their services. I'm a very determined person. I dislike threats and I'm fully aware that I can not threat if I'm unwilling to deliver.

The point of my post in general is to try to know myself whether the line has been crossed and there is no turning back. People say that it isn't over until the fat lady sings. However, if I just can't tolerate it anymore. Why keep holding to it?

Ok, lets see...

No kids.
Short marriage: 6yr
Exposed as far as possible.
Worked a plan A???
Are you looking attractive? (Calm, considerate, strong)
At the end of your tether

Therefore:
Option 1: Plan B

Option 2: Plan D (contingent on polygraph)

They have a three year old son.

I have not exposed. My physical evidence is weak. I have transcript of a chat where my wife proposes "to plan a trip and let him know in advance" so she can "jump his bones". This is smoking evidence in my opinion but she called it "banter between friends". I also have phone records showing contact but is not "daily contact" is more "monthly contact". I feel that if I expose with this evidence to her family I will be making a mistake.

I'm looking very attractive. I have lost 30 pounds since September. I'm exercising daily. My clothes are never in the floor, I clean up, I help around the house and I'm attentive to her needs. Sometimes I get in my head and my mood swings but when that happens I try to walk away. I'm positive she has noticed a change. She has told me.

Okay, I'm off beam on a couple of major points here...

Corrections:
So, exposure dubious due to insufficient evidence,
One kid.

This is a classic situation where "Policy Of Joint Agreement" (POJA) needs be established.

Hypothetically, suppose you affirm your commitment and dedication to the marriage to her, but express uncertainty and fear in the light of her communication with ex lover. Distrust has been bred as a result of her covert and inappropriate interaction.

The questions are:
1. Does she view this as a shared problem?
2. What evidence can she suggest that would demonstrate these fears and misgivings to be unreasonable?
3. What is she prepared to commit in order to help overcome these insecurities?

Let's say she answers:
1. No. The problem is all yours.
2. She married you and gave you a kid -so you have to believe her.
3. Send you to a shrink.

How do YOU deal with THAT?

Banter between friends? You know, this is such a good example of just how confused we become as betrayed spouses. If some friend described his wife talking this way to anb ex-lover, do you have any doubt that you would never buy that this is banter? Yet, when it is happening to you, the crazy denial that many of us have expierienced kicks in.

There is no way their exchange was anything other than the beginnings of a plan to hook up. Friends do not talk like that to one another. They just do not and you need to see she is lying , and rather poorly, at that.

I'm in complete agreement and I appreciate the reminder. Thank you.

I want so bad to give her the benefit of the doubt that I start believeing her. I needed this fresh reminder.

However not for 1 second I have led her to believe that I BUY THIS FRIENDSHIP STORY. I have told her plain and simple this is NOT A FRIEND. Every time we talk about it (only during MC) I clarify that this is an EX, not a friend.

During our second MC session I think the MC got my point. She stated that he believed the relationship with this friend was the way I described it. I also saw the MC had a copy of "Surviving an Affair". I'm clinging to any hope here.

Our second session was a few days ago and todat the MC had a session alone with the WW. When I came home she was in great mood and trying to be nice. I was kind of in my head and did not acted lovingly. I was a bit distant.

I have been upset since I know the OM tried to contact her last saturday. I do not know whether they spoke or not.

Thanks Imagine. You are great . I would like to explore this further.

I believe the answers are something like this:
1.- I believe she sees me as the "instigator" for not paying enough attention to her emmotional and physical needs. I confess to be guilty of that. There are other reasons to our distance that are really not due to me... her mood swings, her anger management problem, having a baby, a new job, managing a business, moving to a new city... these are all things that have happen in our life in the past three years.

2.- Great question. I have struggled with this. I feel like she carries the burden to proof to me that my lack of trust is unreasonable. But what can she do? Do you have ideas? People with similar experiences how do they get over this issue?

3.- Another great question. I need ideas here... I really do not know what to ask so we can overcome this. What other spouses commit to?

I am sure that if you had talked to your ex girlfriend for the past 16 years and told her that you could try to visit her so she would have an opportunity to jump your bones; you wife would certainly agree it was just banter....NOT! I wish you luck my friend but my guess she has no boundaries when it comes to this man. It sounds like your have been in a marriage between three people: you, her and him. You judge a person by their actions and her actions are speaking volumes. Saying she would love to jump his bones and she would try to fly out and meet him is not banter. He is her former lover that she refuses to disconnect from. It sounds like you also have suspicions that she has already been with him since you have been married. Listen to your gut. Please don't let her play you for a fool. Her actions indicate that she does not respect you and your relationship. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Enough is enough. How can you have a future with a spouse who will not let go of her former lover? You deserve better than to waste your life playing in this self-induced drama by your wife. I wish you luck.

Banter. Baloney.

They commit to no contact with the former lover.

There is all kinds of information out there that indicates that it is not a good idea to stay in contact with former lovers.

She has not only stayed in contact with a former lover, but she has had communication with him that she has kept secret from you; She shares a relationship with him that is secret from you, her husband.

She has not only established a secret relationship with him, but this secret relationship also includes provocative "banter". The "banter" includes words that state a hook-up is planned.

She is apparently telling you that there is no problem and wants to keep everything the same as it is now.

Stand strong that it was very wrong for her to keep a secret relationship with a former lover, that the banter is way out of line, that you question the full extent of the relationship, that she must stop the relationship and have no contact with this guy again.

Of course she wants to keep everything as it is now - she's got her cake and she's eating it too.
She's ripping you off. It doesn't work when there are three in the bed, so to speak. She's not giving her all to your marriage. She's not giving her all to her "friend" either.
No-one's the winner.
What's the betting that the "friend" is also married. If so, his wife is being ripped off as well.
She's known this guy for 16 years. They had the chance long before you came on the scene to get serious, get married, have kids and do all of the usual things. Chances are they didn't get along well enough to make that commitment. Now she (and possibly he) has made a commitments in the form of marriage but no-one, not her, him, you or his wife if he has one is getting out of the marriage what you should be getting because of the half-pie relationship between her and this so called friend of hers.

I hope your marriage guidance counsellor insists that she cut all ties with this "friend" of hers. Jumping bones isn't what you do when you're married nor is secret banter. There aren't secrets this big in a successful marriage. That man has to go.

I appreciate all the support. We are all in agreement that this man needs to go.

Here is a question that I have been trying to answer in my head:

What kind of evidence can I reasonably request from her in order for me to know the link has been cut?

If she comes to me and tells me. I spoke to him and now we are never going to speak again that seems to me like an easy way out and I will personally not believe that she can cut it that easily. I believe there has to be some catharsis for it to really break.

What can I reasonablly ask from her? How do I summon the MC into my request?

The guy in not married. he is divorced... he is a complete player, he is a complete ladies man; he says the right things all the time and I'm sure he know what buttons to push on my WW.

This is a dangerous character.

The point is, you have the right to request that she write and you approve and mail a NO CONTACT letter to him. And that she maintain that for the rest of your lives. You have to demand the passwords to all her accounts, see her phone whenever you want to, etc. If she's not willing to agree to total transparency, she doesn't thing she's done something wrong, and you'll never be able to trust her.

I'm so very sad today. We just went to our third MC session. The MC choose so simply avoid the elephant in the room and focus on our communication issues and her feelings of lonelyness and lack of help from me around the house.

I let it ride as I was hoping the MC would finally come around and approach the subject.

I had stated initially that I would not discuss any other relationship issue as long as this BIG issue was dealt with. The MC has clearly decided to ignore me.

Time to get a new MC.

What does your MC charge?

Why not try the Harley's?

You get complete transparency: Access to cell phone records, all passwords, all bank accounts, all work passwords and phone records, keep a key logger on the computer. OM's full name, address, access to all documents pertaining to him that she can make available to you--many e-mails can be retreived.

Also a post nup agreement that if contact is found, you get full custody and child support from her and she leaves the home and you get the family assets. This should be no problem since she would have already agreed to no contact.

How do you involve the counselor in it? Well from the sounds of you more recent post, the counselor is not worth anything. I'd dump the counselor--are you paying for the counseling or is insurance providing the counselor with welfare--er payment?

Hi Kingrat,

Sorry I've not been able to speak awhile. Back on the PC after losing my voice.

You have a responsibility to look after your family for a while as a married man. You wife my have to realize you sense of need to serve a household.

The MC's need to have the deal settled. Can you get to a marriage builders window.

I cannot write for long periods a tall. Listen to other posters on the posts.

It's unanimous. Dump the counselor.

We were in counseling for one year. My ex used to be on his cell in his car as we drove separately to the counselor's office. I checked his phone & sure enough, he was on it with "her" from the time we each left the house to the time he parked outside the MC office, and then again shortly after we got back into our cars.

The MC did not insist on ending contact. He advised me privately to pretend I was putting OW into a glass and placing it on top of the stove during the time of the sessions. ("Elephant in the room.")

The money we spent - egh.

Counsel with the Harleys. No progress can be made while there is any contact with the affair partner.

There is so much that has happen in the last few days. here is a quick run down:

Last Tuesday:

- I posted my last message in here at 1:38PM. In distress for being ignored by the MC
- Around 2pm I called the MC by phone. Told her that I could not wait till Friday for our 1 on 1 session. I told her I wanted to talk immediately. She gave me appointment for next day at 9:30am.
- I came home and checked her computer. She had gone to facebook to query for the OM. She only looked him up, nothing else. But she did go looking for him. I became severely stressed. I was very upset that in the same day that the MC does not address the issue she went looking for the OM.
- I decided to throw the towel. I felt lost. I felt with no help from the MC and no commitment from my WW so I lost it. I reached my mental threshold and decide to divorce.
- We were having dinner and I tried to bite my tongue but could not do it. I told her I had made up my mind and I was going to divorce her. Our son was sitting very close to us.
- She blew up, yelling very loud, banging things, very angry and very upset. I was not angry but I yelled louder than her. That was a moment of madness. Not sure if is worthwhile to describe the things we yelled in that moment but there were no personal insults. We never had a moment like that ever since we met.
- We things calmed down she cried saying her life was a failure. We went to bed in better terms that night.

Last Wednesday

- I met with the MC. I told her that she was endorsing WW behavior by not addressing the issue. I said I was not going to participate in further sessions when that issue is left out. She understood and she said she does not want to give up. She asked me if I still wanted her to work on our marriage and I said yes, however I said that my position is not negotiable that the OM needs to be out of the picture.
- I went to the office and I wrote 2 letters to my wife. Letter 1: explaining why she needs to give up the OM by her own will and not forced by the treat of divorce. Letter 2: Explaining how my physical and emotional needs have also not been met during the last 3 years and how lonely I have felt.
- The MC scheduled a meeting with my WW for Friday.
- I could not sleep at night so I wrote her another letter explaining to her why I consider D. I felt that she needed to know why D is an option to me. I explained that her inaction was a sign to me that she does not share responsibility and that she is unwilling to work on regaining my trust.

So what happened?

Last Thursday:

- We had an honest conversation for about 2 hours. She allowed me to ask her many questions about the relationship and she tried to answer honestly but I could tell she was filtering the details that would hurt me the most. She was not being entirely honest.
- From the information she did give me it is again clear that this is an important relationship in her life and he is deep in her emotional system.
- She agreed to change her cell phone number. She agreed to write a NC letter and let me read and send it certified. I really could not tell if she agreed because I mentioned the D word or because she is truly remorseful and wants to cut ties.

Last Friday:

- I sent her another letter answering the question she had: Why can’t she just call him and tell him not to call her anymore?
- I sent her a link to a website that talks about NC Letters and provides context around a NC Letter
- She DID change her cell phone number.

I sounds like you were suckered into more lessons with the MC.
What did she say that she was trying to achieve.

Ask her if she knows about Marriage Builders construction techniques. Remember there are so many councilors in marriage Building that fail.

I would conclude that a lie detector test check out your missus for lie detection. Ask if she would be interested in doing this.

Read SAA. Remember both of you must reveal past relapses in your past. Also did you alter the NC letter in the message to indicate that both of you is watching her post. Now you need to install a vcr camera on the property.

All these bits need to come to us first so we can give you the fastest legal, wayward disaster speech in the future.

She does not want to give up and I do not want either. I might have made a mistake but my WW is responding and she is acting. (She changed her cell phone and typed a NC letter)


I do not understand, can you explain further?

My ww typed a NC Letter. I'm not 100% satisfied with it but I'm very close to getting there. I suggested some changes and I really hope she makes them.

imagine: I sent you a PM

Hi Kingrat,

Sorry, I'm in and out our local hospital. Unresolved gallstones.

You see that the beauty of your keeping her old number is that you can read his messages when he calls.

Mel said that PM aren't working at this time.

There are a few variations of NC letters which basically says that she is fully dedicated to becoming a committed partner. He must never contact her again. Never ever phone, ever.

I believe that comments for NC is in the first four post of the "Just found Out" section.

If you want many people viewing your posts, go straight to "Contact us" and ask for you letter to become transferred to "General sections (11)". I'm not hundred percent sure that I'll be here all the time. You know why.

Hey Guys

Sounds like I'm on a similar path at the mo -but me being the WW.

I truly belief that stop contact dead is the only way forward. And I am going to make sure that I do it - have had to give up one of my dearest loves to do it and it is v hard. We have had a couple of ddays when I have confessed, but have always kidded myself and BH that we were just friends. This time it is for real - we can never be friends

The plan A bit really played dividends for my marriage my BH was a superstar and I have tremendous respect for him. Well done for sticking to it.

I am determined to do this and it is v hard. this is week 2 without my poss 5x/day contact with OM. The cold turkey stage.

I am putting all my attention into this site while bh is away (back tomorrow) to keep me on the straight and narrow and to keep giving me ideas to maintain recovery.

Has your WW been on here? My BH hasn't yet but I will get him to look at this thread when he returns

Good Luck

Wow! I would love to know more. I'm really struggling with the trust issue now. It's so hard.

The problem I have is that she avoids the issue altogether. And I believe she might be hidding details to protect me from being hurt.

Kingrat

Don't tell WW to come have a look at MB.

Away goes all the secrets.

Hi Kingrat
If you don't think WW has really admiited to herself what is going on, then maybe MB isn't the thing yet. But I would say if there is a glimmer of hope then she should at least read the Q and A on infidelity.

Honesty???? being open???? It helps if you're both singing from the same hymn sheet and understand the process you have been through/are going through.

If she has given him up you will notice the difference - she will be sad and she will ache for him. This may make her feel totally isolated and make her want him more. I am v lucky that I am able to tell BH how I am feeling ( I don't go on about). Tell him when my thoughts for OM are triggered - this makes me feel a lot closer to BH and more loyal and reassures him that I can be open and talk to him.

Frommy own experience when I though BH suspected I was hiding I was, when I didn't talk it was because I knew I would give something away. You will know when it has stopped - she will focus on you more, will want to do a lot more with you and b with you.

Good Luck

Where exactly is the Infidelity Q&A ? Can't find it.

She acknowledged flirting. She resents that I use the word AFFAIR.

Tell her that anything one spouse does with another person that that spouse is unwilling to tell the other spouse about is tantamount to an affair.

Hi KR
Click the "Q&A column" tab at the top of the page, when you're on the Q and A page the Infidelity section is listed on the left hand side ( at the bottom of the top box_ How to survive infidelity). Or in the most popular links box at the bottom right of most pages. Not clever enough to post the link.

I can relate to the "flirting" thing, think I was in denial. I think once you understand the process of how an A starts, you begin to recognise what you are doing

Kingrat, these things ARE important. Read these things in the red sections and articles.

The words are important to those that you speak to.

I had read most of them. I thought there was a special atricle called Infidelity Q&A. It's the section what she was referring to.

I thought for a moment that there was a Q&A could show my WW to clearly explain to her that what she did was an AFFAIR.

She refuses to call it an AFFAIR and she get mad at me for calling it that. So she refuses to discuss it. Hence her refusal to engage on the NC Letter.

PD: During MC yesterday she agreed to sign and send the NC Letter.

Go to "Anatomy of Adultery: 15 steps to unfaithfulness" on the internet.

Please be aware that trying to educate a WW is always bad news in the equation.

You guys have to get it together on a MB weekend. Kingrat, you need to learn how to meet her EN's. Both of you need to establish the POJA thing that we talked about previously.

Then EP's (Emotional Precautions) must be a regular project. Both you and your wife have many things that requires learning.

Then keep at it. Help others.