Plan A or kick ‘em to the curb?

If only the answer to such a complex problem were that simple. There are so many variables to consider with infidelity it's difficult to say which one is more successful.

> quality of M pre-A
> children involved
> length of M
> type of A
> length of A

Those are just a few of the factors to consider. If you have a BS that believes the M to have been pretty good pre-A and an A that is completely out of character for the WS, a short plan A followed quickly by plan U is probably the best approach. Now, if you have a BS that readily admits to being a bad spouse and neglecting the M pre-A, an extended plan A would be required to make the BS an equal option to the A for the WS. Both strategies come with risks. Delivering plan U too quickly could solidify the A and plan A can easily become plan doormat for a conflict avoider. So I think the key is to ask the right questions to determine what kind of situation the BS is dealing with and advise accordingly.

Like TMTS, LaLa and I have talked about some of this stuff too. A few weeks before I went to plan D, I had discussions with LaLa where I laid out what our relationship would be if we D'd. I told her there would be no way we would be "friends" if that were to happen. It would be too painful for me and our contact would be minimal. That I would move on with my life and asked her how she was going to deal with someone else helping to raise our children. I think those discussions were pretty instrumental in bringing LaLa fully onboard with recovery because when I did go to plan D she knew I was serious and what that would mean for her life. Had I done that 6 months earlier, LaLa has said she's not sure what the outcome would have been. She was pretty firmly cemented in the fog at that time with the encouragement of the toxic BF and those discussion likely would have gone in one ear and out the other. I think it is all really just a matter of planning and timing. Getting all your ducks in a row so to speak before you take action. It was a risk, but it was a calculated risk. Fortunately, one that has worked out well for our M and family.

Want2Stay

The dark loneliness of abandonment on DDay can be overwhelming. The realization of what was happening - never want to go there again.

this rare forum gives the BS a group of supporters who have walked the path - who have also experienced seeing their world crash around them.

Absolutely!

The more what I believe is challenged, the more I have to think about it and consider other options. The more I think about it, the more I have to examine WHY I believe what I do and the stronger my knowledge becomes. If I can't prove it to myself, I have no ground to stand on...

Mark

So how have you been TMTS?

Miss ya ‘round here sometimes.

Hope all is going well.

(Any more clichés that fit the situation?)

You must stick your nose in here to read without letting us know what's going on quite a bit. You show up as soon as your name gets mentioned, but go for months with nothing to say.

I KNOW you're not speechless.

I wasn't the one that mentioned your name so I'm innocent (in that regard anyway.)

Are you still curling?

We discovered that we do have a professional hockey team in Chicago, BTW. Who knew?

Miss ya...

But only want to see you when you're back to tell us how good things are going.

Mark

OK, ok, guilty as charged... still lurk and keep and eye on you to make sure I'm not put on to high a pedistal without the folks arround here knowing who the true heroes are.

I was thinking about this thread and the general premise of ultimatums. For me it came down to the realization that there was nothing more to loose, and to an extentent I think that is MyRev's main message. When you look at some of the guys that have lost everything and are now fighting to recover, many say the same thing... they waited to long before they acted. Some of us acted right out of the gate (Mark, MyRev) and others had to see the light before we snapped out of it (W2S), and then others wish they had acted sooner (Jamesus). At the end of the day action had to be taken one way or another, and to a certain degree it was this ultimatum that broke through the fog. The question now becomes how does one know when to take that step.
(There that sould get you guys going again. )

So I'd best give an update before Mark takes that flight to Toronto...
Things are good, recovery is progressing well(I do still have the picture of OM implanted in my head and have a sick wish to have a little face to face "chat") Do I still get triggered...yes, do I have days where I feel that not enough has been done...yes, do I trust that it won't happen again...no. So I keep plugging away at it with her instead of the way I dealt with things before which was to bottle everything in and just get things fixed with nobody elses input...especialy hers. amazing what happens when you learn to stop being an A-hole...
At work the sales team finally convinced me to join what they call the dark side...I love it! Basically they where looking for a tech geek that was comfortable talking to people either one on one or in groups and they've been telling me that I fit that profile perfectly. The kids are back to being "kids" and are noorse for wear.

As for curling, after last night's draw my skip would not say that what I was doing was anything near curling... couldn't hit the broom, my weight was all over the place, my in-turn was bad and my out-turn even worse...but at the end of the game the beer was still cold!!!

Glad to see that blackhawks rise from the ashes...it's been since the days of Denis savard since they've had a decent team...as for Toronto the fans here are still waiting. The media will try to make you beleive that they have the best team in hockey and the patrons fall for it, so the ownership has no incentive to change. Now to us Habs fans we just love sticking their noses in it. My favourite is that fact they're last cup win was one week before I was born, and the more gray hairs I get the funnier that joke gets.

So there you have it...does that get me out of the dog house? ;)For the longest time the board was trigger for me but I feel good writing this Markest type novella and can say this is the first time in a long time that I can write this stuff without having bad feelings come up...so you will be seeing me a little more around here because at one point I do have to pay it forward and be somebody's Mark.

This is a post i posted a while back on another thread about the differences between BH's and BWs.

I think there is a difference in the WS and the BS as far as gender is concerned and this is IMHO what i think about the differences.

SC,

It has been said (I forget by whom) that women give sex to get intimacy and men give intimacy to get sex....

I think that in most cases wives who become wayward have pretty much already checked out of the marriage before the affair becomes physical. The two Franks, Grunzburg and Pittman both point to this in their writing.

In some cases the check out took place before meeting the OM and can even be triggered by some they are not attracted to in the least. Michelle Langley speaks to this in her books and I found that sight and read some of her stuff before finding MB. I kept looking because frankly I found that she gave a very detailed and precise description of how a wife becomes wayward and even the thought process she uses to justify her affair, Ms Langley had no suggestions for how to recover from an affair either as betrayer or betrayed.

Langley talks of a woman meeting someone who sparks something inside her. She doesn't act on this trigger with the person who brought it about but begins to wonder "what if" about her own life. She might have forgotten that she once felt attractive to men in general and that she has somehow lost a part of herself as the result of being in her current relationship with her husband. At that moment in time I think some women give themselves permission to explore other options and at that very moment leave the marriage in their own minds and become open to if not actively looking for another relationship.

Grunzburg points out that many, mostly women, long for a feeling they once had. They want to feel like they are "special" and the day to day grind of marriage can quickly remove any special-ness from a relationship. These folks begin to look for something or someone who can once again make them feel special.

This is really looking outside of self for completeness and seeking to get ourselves "fixed" by something else. It is a mindset that says, "I am not whole" or "I am empty" and have need of someone else to fill me up or make me whole. It's very much like the teenager who sits in front of the TV all day long playing video games and when the game is over says "I am bored."

While Langley suggests that the trigger usually comes from some person (usually a man) that a woman meets, Pittman and Grunzburg and others suggest that it can come from some event in a woman's life that is either traumatic in some way or that causes her to question her own self worth. This can be the death of a loved one, especially a child or can be some happy event like the wedding of a daughter or even some friend who seemed to be destined for matron-hood but now seems so happy. Even sending the youngest child off to college might be such a trigger to make a woman begin to ask "Is that all there is?"

Whatever the trigger, some folks just look outside themselves for someone to fix what is broken or supply what they feel they are missing. I think the 80/20 rule comes into play here since the truth is that every relationship could be better and we all tend to focus not on what we have but on what is missing in ourselves and our lives.


Mark

Mark,

So, given what you wrote above, how does a woman having an affair borne of the circumstances you describe come back to her marriage, or is she "too far gone" for that to happen no matter the tactics employed? In other words, are Plans A and B even relevant if the pattern fits as you describe?

AlexEN

Alex, it can and does happen....I'm the one they refer to where up until an hour of me going to visit my parents with the kids while she packed up the van to move, I was in the same predicament. How...IMO its when they realize that they were in fact living in a fantasy world and that they could in fact find what they are looking for within the confines of the marriage. But you have to show them and that's where Plan A comes in, show her that you can give her more then the OM.
I don't by any means consider myself a vet, but I see that you are also wondering about the kids, and the fact that I experienced my F's A at 14 I may be of help...

Alex,

I tried to post a reply to you all day and never got past the first line.

I'll reply on your thread so I can say more than here, but Plan A and Plan B are designed to break just such a situation. Plan A is to make you a better choice than OM so she decides to end her A and Plan B is what can save your sanity and your love for her if she doesn't end the A in a timely manner.

I'll say more on your thread...

Mark

Mark,

I was hoping you would come here tonight so I could wish you the Merriest Christmas's of all.

thank you for all you having given me, and written to me. You are one blessed soul who brings comfort to so many.

May it be the best Christmas EVER for you and your family.
:MerryChristmas:

While i agree with a lot of what you are saying i also will have to add the rest of my posts from the other thread for my thoughts on relationship differences.

I also have to say that nothing or no one is ever NEVER or ALWAYS, there are exceptions to every rule however in general.

IMHO First of all i belive there is a difference in how both genders view relationships in general and secondly i believe because of that difference an affair is going to be different for both genders because of the relationship view points in general.

Secondly i think each betrayed spouse has to handle things differently as well. I do not mean they should not follow the MB principles and have a Plan in place, i am saying that each Plan A and Plan B is going to be slighty different for each couple.

And lastly i still have not been convinced that the "fog" exist. Even though i believe that waywards all seem to follow a similar script i believe that script is because they are wayward. They may not have meant for it to happen but once it does they all hide it to the hilt for sure and they all forget about the person who has spent their lives with them.

SC,

Do we have some kind of disagreement here that I am missing?

The only thing I might take exception with is whether or not there is a "fog." And that I think has more to do with definition than with substance.

So what am I missing?

Mark

Are there always exceptions to every rule?

That is one i have often pondered myself, like which came first the chicken or the egg?

'
Thats because it is a self refuting statement, you silly! It is like saying "never say never" or "there is no such thing as truth!" [is that the "truth?"]


You are correct about EXCEPTIONS, though. But that is understood when one is making generalizations. An exception does not DISPROVE a generalization, because that is an inherent trait of generalizations. The legitimacy of an inductive generalization can be determined if we have a sufficient number of instances to draw a conclusion and if the conclusion is supported by the evidence. So, I get the point you were making, but Mark and the others are also right in their generalizations.

I have to agree with Mark on this one--there is a pronounced "fog" that has more to do with definition and perspective than substance.

To the BS, the WS is in a fog manifested by denials, lies, blame-shifting, manipulation, scapegoating, and a shocking emotional coldness/cruelty/distance toward the BS.

To the WS, it is not a fog--it is their new "reality" and they are just doing & saying what they feel and believe at the time (to maintain, propogate, and justify the A).

Something has to shake the WS out of their new frame of reference for them to see it as "fog" rather than just a new set of circumstances. Usually, though not exclusively, the only thing that can do that is the A ending or at least the R becoming vastly less appealing to the WS.

The frustrating and painful element of this for the BS is that there is little to nothing the BS can do to exert influence over the WS/OP towards this end. It just has to happen "on its own" while the BS is left groping for answers as to why they have become so "unimportant" in the meantime.

Mark,

If/when you have a chance, I finally posted some more directed questions pertaining to my sitch.

Thanks,

AEN

I do not have a disagreement with anyone on MB, i was only posting my opinions. Sorry if you felt that way be my post.

I do believe i posted that (it has been a while and my ole brain don't work as well as it use to or did it ever ) just to tell my feelings on the difference between men and women in relationships.

We all have our own opinions on this matter and mine is there is no such thing as the "fog" the WS was just being selfish.