Still,

Your depression did NOT cause the affair. That's what he'd have you believe. What I've noted from numerous conversations with LBS is that the betraying spouse often tries to "blame" the affair on us or the marriage. It's part of the rationalization process and fog they are in. Ultimately, while we may not have been perfect spouses and may well have contributed to a situation that made them more vulnerable to an affair it was THEIR choice. There are other, more mature ways, of dealing with unhappiness in a marriage.

-AlexEN

Farm,

Who else did you expose your husband to?

-AlexEN

I don't understand this reasoning. If they "find out" on their own, who will give them moral guidance? Isn't that the job of the parent? Usually if the BS doesn't give them the facts and give them moral guidance, the WS WILL give them her own brand of "morality," which leaves the kids morally confused. The WS will teach them that wrong is right.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Tabby,

Thanks, this is a wonderful and succinct explanation of the merits of telling the children.

-AlexEN

Melody,

I'm new to these boards, have been posting at DB for awhile, where the approach seems much less direct. There some argue against exposure and against telling the kids (if they are too young) and that doesn't FEEL right to me...


I know many of the WAWs say don’t say anything and that that will only push her further away, but it seems so enabling (and deceitful to the children) to let her have her cake and eat it too.In the event they were to resent me and be angry with me for taking their mother off a pedestal, I look at it this way: Would I rather be resented for whitewashing the truth later (when they find out eventually) or for telling the truth now (that I want to our marriage and my wife does not)?

Telling them may be the only thing that could shake her from her fog, not that I want to use them as pawns, but because it’s important to me that my children learn to face up to their problems; they always have.

My IC concurred that if there were any chance that would bring her out of the fog, the “greater good” might be served by telling the kids, because he thinks the effects of D are devastating in circumstances like I am facing. I will tread very carefully in how I broach it with them, but I will not lie to protect her. What’s she gonna do… divorce me if I do?

I do think about the mother-child bond, but I also think about the father-child bond. I don’t want to be a doormat, that’s not a good example either. Besides, where I come from “owning up” to one’s mistakes is honored. I think if she did the “work” that was necessary and we could all forgive her, she would have that much more respect from them and from me. The female equivalent, I guess, of “manning up”!

I will gladly attest to all of my sins and faults, as I do NOT blame her for the entirety of what happened. I have forgiven the affair; I have more trouble with the fact that she will do nothing to reestablish trust or make any introspection on her part if BUT for the children and not me. I don’t need her anymore. I’m no longer wrapped up in her.

Come the new year, I will tell them, because I cannot go on living this “lie” in front of them. That hurts more than anything she has (or has not done), knowing that someday my children will know the truth and they will not know whom to trust (as I don’t want to be whitewashed or involved in a “cover up” just for her sake) is not the right "Ghost of Christmas Future".

-AlexEN

I see you've decided to tell the children. Good...

I've been on the back end as a kid and as a BH, and can tell you without a doubt that they know much more than either of you think.

Do not undersestimate the power of having your 13YO DD call her mother a sl*t right to her face.

She is in a fantasy... she has the kids, and nice home and a boy toy on the side, she has no reason to do anything but to keep dragging it on and work on turning EA2 into PA2.

Has your plan A been good? Without that plan B is useless because the last memory will not put you in a good light.

You sound very much like I did a year ago... over analysing every move looking for some sort of majic to make her snap out of it.

What made my DW snap out of it... reality! The reality of her children resenting her for the rest of her life, the reality that there was a good chance that her decision could not be taken back, the reality that friends and family would never treat her the same if deal with her at all...

If you what a good idea of Mark's genius, read my thread. It's long and emotionally exhausting, but you may see many similarities between your W and mine.

Alex,

I feel I am at the same point you are. W fantasy has carried over into he D papers (wanting EVERYTHING we have, just me not in it).

I have (finally) told her parents everything and will be telling the k's in the New Year.

Will it do anything? Like you, I need my k's to know (i) TRUTH - that lies and deceit are not the way to go in life, and (ii) I was willing to do whatever I could for my family.

I am with you on this.

Stay strong!

Hello Alex! You are getting great advice from the best! You were wondering if you should tell the children or not. I struggled with that also and you can read about it on my thread: "Affair with my brother has destroyed my family" by Jim_Flint. I have bumped it for you. I wondered if it was the right thing to do and although difficult MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!!!

It allowed people to understand what in the world was going on both my kids and other family members. We also found a great deal of support from family and friends and friends here on MB.

It also allowed my beautiful wonderful confused wife to begin to regain her own integrity and to start living her life again as who she REALLY is rather than the person who thought she could never regain her integrity. It gave her the ability to START OVER WITHOUT HAVING TO HIDE WHAT HAD OCCURED!!!

She and I HAVE NEVER BEEN HAPPIER THAN NOW!!! Even when we first married it did not have the DEPTH of love we have now!!! We now know we can make it through anything together.

Keep posting and listen to what people here tell you. THEY ARE THE BEST!!!

God bless.

Jim

Alex, I am glad to see you have decided to do the right thing and tell your children the truth. To not tell them is gross dereliction of duty when there is an ongoing affair. Parents have a moral obligation to teach their children right from wrong and when they NEGLECT that duty to cover up for an adulterer, the child grows up profoundly morally confused. It does not make children secure to believe LIES about a bad parent. It just makes them utterly defenseless against their immoral teachings. NICE!

And if they don't find out NOW, and they watch your marriage falling apart without knowing the facts, they will learn that marriages are basically meaningless and can fall apart for seemingly no good reason. That is a CRIME to teach a child.

I assure you, if you don't give them the facts and give them moral guidance, YOUR WIFE WILL. She will teach them that WRONG IS RIGHT and teach them to doubt their instincts about right and wrong.

As a girl whose father was a liar and a cheater, I learned early on that I was a STUPID GIRL because my instincts about right and wrong were STUPID. Apparently, adultery was just fine even tho my instincts told me otherwise. I RESENT MY MOTHER FOR NOT TELLING ME THE TRUTH!

I can't tell you how damaging this gross NEGLECT was to me personally growing up. Growing up not knowing right from wrong is a severe handicap that caused me great hardship well into my adult years. it really sucks to have to learn right from wrong when you are 35!

[if anyone wants this segment on MP3, email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I will email it.

This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Harley, as many of you know, is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

I think nuclear exposure to everyone that would be in a position to pressure her to work on her marriage along with military grade surveillance of all her communication would be in order.

I think that you were doing a very good job of plan A, but that your plans were thwarted by contact w/ OM1 and OM2. If you can control her cell phone and email communication for 6 months (facebook is your enemy) while you are doing a good plan A, as well as exposing her the the consequences of her affairs (exposure, restricting her access to finances, etc), you may be able to kick this thing. If you can't do that anymore, then I would recommend a legal separation and plan B to put an end to her fantasies.

She hasn't left yet, so I don't think she will leave on her own without another OM to jump right to. I think that you can put the clamp down on her until her withdrawal is over and then plan A will start to get you places. However, it may be very taxing policing her for 6-12 months until you are sure this is out of her system.

Alex,

More in response to your question on my other thread...

The point of Plan A is to show the WW that her ENs can and will be met at home by her husband. In essence it is an effort to out affair OM. The hope is that there is enough positive history between you that she will consider returning to the marriage. What you have to keep in mind is that Plan A must be done without your own ENs getting met by her and usually with no acknowledgment from her that you are even making any progress.

One sign that you are having an impact is if she says that what you are doing is "Too little, too late..." This means that she has noticed the changes in you and understands that you are giving her what she wants and needs.

This won't make the affair end at once...

Might not make it end at all...

The whole idea of Plan A is to have a PLAN. It is a way for you to act rather than reacting to what she does and says. It keeps YOU focused on saving the marriage and helps you deal with the lack of response from her. You do what you need to do no matter what she decides to do...

Plan B is for when she is cake eating and won't leave you for OM and won't leave OM for you either. Under these circumstances, after a precise and well executed but short Plan A, you make arrangements to stop dealing with the affair and with her while she is in the affair.

In Plan B you need to have an intermediary set up that can pass information between you so that you have no contact with her at all. This intermediary needs to be someone who can be trusted to give you relevant information while filtering out the daily drama that WW is likely to try to lay at your feet since she will no longer have you meeting those ENs that you were meeting so well in Plan A and she will miss you. She won't say she misses you; she will try to get you to react to something so that she can have contact with you.

Plan B is normally begun with a letter called around here a Plan B Letter or just PBL. This PBL should be a love letter to your wayward wife, telling her that you love her but that you can no longer share her with OM. It should inform her that you will have no contact with her until the affair ends, but should also specify what you will require in order to attempt reconciliation once OM is out of the picture.

Your PBL should be a road map home for the WW and not a venting session. It should spell out exaclty what you will want from her if she decides to come home. Do NOT load the letter with pie in the sky hopes that you know can't happen because it will prevent her from even trying if the affair ends. But it must contain enough information that she can see a clear path she must take in order to be taken back. This must include NC with OM or any OM, and should probably include at least an agreement to attend counseling or follow some specific plan of recovery (MB is a good choice but talking to Jennifer of Steve to get real help is better than just using the forums alone or even the books and the forum together.

You might also require that you attend a MB weekend together before taking her back and you should basically make sure you will be getting what you will need in order to start real recovery. If you make it too easy, then she will have no motive to fix anything and will think that leaving OM and saying "I'm sorry" is all she needs to do. But is you make it too hard for her then she will not even consider returning to you once OM is gone and will just look for another OM instead.

Plan A is for you to fix your half of the marriage even if she isn't willing to work on her half. It allows you to act instead of reacting to her drama and infantile selfishness.

Plan B is so that you can be protected from her bovine excrement and keep a little in the old Love bank and save enough energy and will to work on the marriage for the day when the affair ends.

Plan A is for YOU.

Plan B is for YOU.

Neither one is for the WS...

In Plan A you fix you so that you are the best you that you can be and demonstrate it to her by your actions and not merely words.

In Plan B you allow your emotions to heal, unwind the entanglement with WW and establish a life of your own that does not depend on getting anything from her. You wait for the affair to end and her to do what you expect in order to return home until you get what you want or until you decide you no longer want her back no matter what. If after two years she is still not back then you move on with your life since statistically the A should be over by then.


If she isn't moving out and filing for divorce it is because that is not what she wants to do. She wants to cake eat. She wants you to do all that you do for her but at the same time she wants OM to do what he does for her. She doesn't want to give either of you up. She is trying to negotiate keeping both of you.

You must come up with a way to knock her off the fence.

It may require a legal separation, cutting off finances, a dark Plan B or maybe even filing for divorce.

Have you told her that you are not willing to share her with any OM and that you have no desire to be "friends" with her if the marriage fails? You don't have to avoid stating this kind of thing during Plan A you must just do it without screaming, shouting, swearing and making a complete a$$ of yourself. You tell her without love busters of any kind.


Mark

Here’s a more succinct version of my situation… I’m ready to expose and/or go directly to Plan B as I think I’ve been doing the equivalent of Plan A (ex- the stick) for quite some time (if not too long).

WW had a PA from September through November of 2007. It continued as an EA (OM is 1500 miles away) through beginning of March 2008 when she admitted to it and quit cold turkey (which was much harder for her than it was to him). I spoke with him in July 2008 when I suspected WW was back in contact with him. Turns out she was/is having a (denied) EA with man she effectively left for me when we were in College! (Her quote then: "He is a narcissist."). My quote now: “He's a hypocrite.” He claims to be pained by the topic of divorce (especially when kids are involved) as he is going through his own D right now and to have "no designs" on my wife (they were "together briefly, as kids"), yet he and she are in semi-regular contact and she put "D on the table" the day after a lengthy phone call with him last June (which I only learned of in October). He protests too much by saying he has never initiated a phone call or e-mail exchange with her, but a decent guy, supposedly grieving his own D, doesn't HAVE to respond EVEN IF that’s the case. She says since we're "psychologically separated" it shouldn't matter to me who she talks to... Nice logic. She has also said virtually everything to me on the list of what WW’s say. Coincidence of coincidences, he lives in same town 1500 miles away as OM1! Other than that, and the fact that there is no intimacy, we get along fantastically. Kind of makes me want to puke. The kids will be stunned when she tells them SHE wants a divorce. She wants us to go hand-in-hand, which I will not do, as she has “classically” redefined our history to make us out as “never having been right”. I recognize this as the fog (although I see some doubt its existence). Nonetheless, she is perfectly to script. She will not look at her own role in the demise of our M nor will she do any MC and her IC is geared toward how to “tell the kids” and make it as “amicable as possible”.

I saw a post where it was suggested that answers to the following would help the experts to help me assess the best course of action…

> quality of M pre-A – I readily admit to being a bad spouse pre-A; I took her (and our M) for granted; in my longer post I describe the work I’ve done on myself…
> children involved – 3; oldest (S) will turn 14 on 2/1 (he is bi-polar); middle-child (D) just turned 11 last week; and youngest (S) turns 9 on 5/7.
> length of M – We have been married 22 years, together almost 27 years.
> type of A – See above.
> length of A – See above.

I will NOT be a doormat to her and do not want to be an enabler for this second EA but, more importantly, I will not stand by if she chooses to recreate our history for the kids. At this point I am in it more for the kids’ sake than hers. Even if she said she didn’t want a D now, she’d have to do some serious work for ME to want a “new” R with her. I DO think they (the kids) deserve for us BOTH to work on OURSELVES to see if that can happen. In the meanwhile, here are my more specific questions, as I think I need to do more than just tell the kids in an age-appropriate manner why their mother wants a as part of a complete plan.

In terms of exposure:
> is there any reason to (or not to) expose to OM1W? I am quite certain that is over (and that he could cut it off cold turkey hurt her at some level);
> should I confront OM2 who already claims to have “no intentions” with my W and tell him he’s a hypocrite (per above). Many at the other board say that only elevates his stature. I understand that school of thought, but would like to hear the MB counterpoint (if it’s different);
> OM2 already going through his own D; is there any point of “exposing” (and to whom) even though they both deny that they are anything more than “friends” (though she has separate phone just for him). Should I remind him of PA1, though W says he knows;
> W’s parents very elderly (late 80’s) but will likely support their D, but they could surprise me (same with her half-sister). Should I be telling them about the ended PA or just the current EA?;
> Kids will be told in age-appropriate way; but, I have same question here, too; should they know about PA (which appears moot) or just the EA or a more generic “Mommy has talked to men in a way she should only talk to Daddy…” or something along those lines.

In terms of financial separation:

> Can anyone point me to comprehensive list of issues (e.g., credit bureaus, banks, credit card accounts, etc.) to consider in separating our accounts pre-legal separation and/or divorce?
> I will not leave our home, as this is D she wants, but I will be forced to give her very sizeable support and maintenance; if I “kick her to the curb” now, am I just enabling?

Lastly, to Mark’s question, I have told her that I am not willing to share her with any OM and that I have no desire to be "friends" with her if the marriage fails.

Thanks in advance.

AEN,

You've asked me to post to you a couple of times now so I feel that I should try to tell you something. My problem is that I really don't know what else to tell you.

If you want to save your marriage then you must make that a priority over just about everything else in your life. Of course you must balance this with making certain that the children are being taken care of and you are able to maintain a level of work at your job that allows you to keep your job.

Based entirely on your thread title it would appear that your main question is exposing to the kids and to that I would say that you should do so if you haven't as of yet. This needs to be done in an age appropriate manner of course and your son who is BP must be dealt with in a way that does not cause him to feel that it is his problem to deal with. Having raised a daughter who is BP I can sympathize with you on this one. It isn't so much the down times that can be scary but the manic episodes that create so much drama and uncertainty that you just end up exhausted most of the time. And waiting for the next crisis seems to be all you do with your life. You are either in crisis, dealing with the aftermath of a crisis or anticipating the next crisis.

But I understand that what you are really looking for is something you can do to make all this insanity stop and have your wife fully committed to you in the future.

And there is the real trouble, because you can't MAKE her do anything. The best you can do is to try to make yourself a better option than OM1, OM2 or any OMx.

Thus Plan A:

* Meet her ENs as much as she allows
* Avoid Love Busters
* Expect nothing in return from her

Here is where it gets sticky I'm afraid. You plan on doing this for some intense specific period of time and then you pull the plug on Plan A and start Plan B.

Plan B:

* You stop Plan A activities
* You separate form your wife
* You inform her of what you will require form her in order to take her back
* You relearn to live without her in your life
* You wait (again some specific amount of time) to see if she wakes up, extracts her head from her butt and really commits to the marriage.


Now here's the thing. Is your wife making moves to divorce you over OM2? Is she really carrying on a serious affair with this guy or is she in withdrawal, not withdrawal from the affair but a State of Withdrawal as defined by Dr Harley in his Three States of Mind In Marriage?

In INTIMACY we want to do things for the our spouse. We want our spouse to be happy and fulfilled even it it means that we sacrifice something to accomplish it. Our GIVER is in charge of everything we are doing in the relationship.

But eventually our TAKER comes to the party and demands equal time. We are now in a state of CONFLICT. In CONFLICT we no longer want to sacrifice. In fact we don't care if our spouse is happy or not. What we want is what WE want. Our TAKER is entirely in charge and we pretty much do whatever we want to do with no regard for the feelings of our spouse at all.

But if neglected long enough, our TAKER demands to be fed and we begin to look elsewhere for our ENs. Demands, anger and disrespectful judgments did not get what we wanted so we stop trying to get anything from our spouse at all. We basically don't care what anyone else wants and just take whatever we can get wherever we can get it.

Enter an affair. For most women this is usually an EA at least at first. ENs that were not being met are now getting the attention they demanded. But since these ENs are being met by OM and not her husband, a woman is attaching herself to OM while falling farther and farther away from you, her husband. It reaches a point where she feels as if she can no longer do without getting her ENs met by OM and this is an affair.

Most affairs turn physical at some point. Many women might be able to continue an AE for many years as long as their ENs of Conversation, Openness and Honesty etc are being met. But at some point the OM's TAKER jumps in and he wants HIS EN of SF met as well. If the State of Intimacy has been reached in this relationship, the woman will give SF because her GIVER will be willing to make that leap in order to make OM happy and keep him so that her ENs are still being met.

This is what you attempt to break during Plan A. You meet her ENs so that she does not need OM to meet them and so that your Love Bank balance is high enough that she feels the same way about you. The problem is to do it efficiently so that you can do it long enough to make progress because doing it in a half-a$$ed manner means that you will burn out, fall into a state of WITHDRAWAL yourself and no longer care about saving the marriage if it goes on too long.

Part of what makes an EA so dangerous is that it has the same effect on the marriage as a full blown PA. It undermines the marriage until it is no longer viable even if nothing in the way of sex is taking place. Since an AE is often so easy for the adulterer to justify by claiming that it is not an affair at all but merely a case of having a "friend" it still produces the same problems as if she ran off to meet with him every night after work.

Part of the solution to both an EA and a PA is to expose the affair to the light of day. Exposure is not merely to get someone to take your side against your wife. Your enemy is not your wife, it is the affair. What exposure does is to make the affair public so that people know what is going on and why the marriage is failing. Even those who will side with her will have a different attitude about the demise of the marriage once they know the truth. Even if they support HER and not YOU they will still have a different view of things than letting the WW spin the trouble between you. She is probably telling people that her "friendship" with OM has nothing to do with your marital troubles and is the result of your crazy jealousy and insane controlling tendencies.

So you expose to those involved in your life, her life and OM's life. OM1 probably is no longer an issue and I would leave his wife out of it for now, though if your marriage ever recovers, your W might wish to contact her at some point. I know that some will take exception to this because she has the right to know about the affair your wife had with her husband but right now your focus needs to be saving your marriage if that is your intent and I think that bringing OM1 into the mix right now would be less than productive.

That is not to say that OM1 should be avoided when exposing to her family and friends or yours. The children might not need to be involved in that right now, but if things go badly and you end up headed for divorce I would let them now that OM2 wasn't the first.

Don't know if that helps or not...

Mark

Mark,

Thanks, that is helpful... To answer some of the questions you asked...


Everything she has said indicates whe is making moves to divorce me. She claims NOT over OM2, but because she's DONE with me. I do NOT think she is carrying on a serious affair with OM2, but that she wants the freedom to see if there might be something there. She is definitely in Withdrawal as defined by Dr. H.


That is precisely my problem with this EA. It does seem as damaging as a PA as it prevents her from addressing HER and our R. As long as she gets E support elsewhere, our FAMILY has no chance. But, OM2 is in process of getting a D. Not sure how exposure to his XW to be does anything one way or another. Am beginning to feel like only possible exposure is "age-appropriately" to our own children. Was hoping for a more comprehensive exposure approach. So, I guess a basic question is whom else falls under this unbrella:


Her parents? Her half-sister? Our friends?

Do you know if there any posters who are well-versed in terms of how I should proceed with separating our finances pre-D without creating potential legal problems later?

Thanks,

A

That's what they ALL say, AEN. When confronted and after a couple days to think about it my wife said she wanted a divorce, saying "It has nothing to do with (OM). I just don’t want to be married to you any more." As if that was going to make me feel better about it…

The fantasy of the affair is what is driving her in her thought process. Not even the reality of it, merely the FANTASY of it all. She has justified it, perhaps beginning back with OM1 by telling herself that she is not in love with you, has never really been in love with you and could never really love you the way she should in order to remain married to you.

Now you know she has lied to you about other aspects surrounding the affair; why do you believe her when she says stuff like this?

OF COURSE the reason is the affair. If she had other reasons to leave you she would have done it a long time ago. If you were such a terrible husband, she'd have left you before there were any children involved. If she had no feelings for you she would have left you and not been having sex with you. If she was unhappy enough with the marriage to destroy it and tear apart your family and cause so much grief for your children, she'd have bailed because of her unhappiness. This isn't about being unhappy, it's about being in love with a fantasy that isn't even real.

Whoever might have any kind of stake in the relationship for any reason needs to be told. Anyone who might be able to challenge her spin of your "problems" in the marriage and that needs to know the truth should be told the truth.


Egg Zach Lee!

The affair IS the problem. In order to save your marriage, you must attack the affair!

The best weapon against an affair is the truth!


See a lawyer...You don't have to file for divorce to seek legal counsel.

Mark