I suppose then despite not having any evidence of impropriety and her assurance that there is no one else, I still proceed then as if there is.

And if that is the case then I am a standstill as to what to do. Do I sit on my hands and wait for change and if so how long? Of course implementing some of the articles from this site, or do I just assume that since she no longer desires me I proceed headlong into divorce before she does and fight for everything, my house, custody of the kids, etc. etc?
Or do I force her by my inaction to take those steps?

I guess I feel really burned regardless if there is an affair because she is treating me as if she is done with me on an intimate level anyway. Regardless of the type of affair, even on the slim chance there is no one, the end result is still the same and I need to proceed ahead accordingly?

If you still want your marriage then get "Surviving An Affair" and get yourself into plan A. Do not move out and do not let her take the kids. Take the EN questionaire for her and try your best to guess her top EN's and start filling them. Eliminate LB's and AO's. Become the best YOU without being a doormat. Continue to snoop as well.

If you do not want the M then prepare your battle for your kids and home.

Faithful,

Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure how I feel. If I did anything at this point it would be for my children. 3 Months isn't a long time in the big scheme of things but my wife has said so much and everyone keeps telling me there has to be some sort of an affair.
I have to ask myself why I would continue to be with a person who would treat me this way, who would get involved in a marriage for 16 years and then later say she may have never had a sexual desire to begin with.

Also someone who wants to disrupt my life and my children because she is lacking something that I cannot figure out what it is and has told other people that it is too late.

I'm conflicted with pain and anger and also my own Christian beliefs to do what is right but I have a level of selfishness there too where I am tired of being hurt.

6 months into our marriage my wife went through a similar episode where she wasn't sure that maybe she should have gotten married. We were sort of young but after a couple of months it just went away and everything has been fine since but it still hurt me then.

If I have to be at the point that I mistrust my wife to the point of putting recorders in her car and key loggers on the computer, that in itself makes me question if a person this untrustworthy is worth staying with and making me reduced to a person I am ashamed of myself for having had snooped to begin with.

But reading all of the posts on here everyone seems so sure that there is an affair of some kind and how it has to be exposed but I just can't get the proof. There has been a couple very minor suspicious things but not enough to have that "aha" moment.

The only question I have at this point is whether or not to work on the marriage or file papers and make things difficult, which is not who I am.

SC,

It is up to you to do what will work for you and your family. God does give us an out with infidelity though right now you have no proof of any. Although recovery from an affair is difficult, I wouldn't judge your entire M or your W on behavior that is 3 months old. I was once a WW. I have now been a BW twice. I can tell you that I am not close to being the same person I was back when I had my A. I have gone through a big transformation thanks to God. Read the articles about infidelity on the website. Make an informed decision if you want to fight for your family or move on. Either way, please fight for your children.

God bless.

Faithful,

That certainly is encouraging. As I said I am very confused at this point. And you are correct, I have zero proof of infidelity. However, if you look closely at the bible and what Christ said he did state that Moses said divorce was allowed in the case of infidelity but that was not how it was intended from the beginning.

I'm not judging her based on 3 months but looking back at our level of intimacy I question whether or not she is being honest when she thinks maybe it was not there.
For me, it has been 3 months since she opened up but maybe I have missed more clues along the way.

SC:

I just read your thread and several of the details of your situation were similar to mine. I own my own business, and even though the STBXW worked in the business from home with me, I was the primary caregiver for the children. I am generally viewed as the 'nice guy,' and when the STBXW actually did leave I had no proof whether she was actually having an affair...although I do know that she had at least one PA and one EA within the two years prior to leaving. In addition, the STBXW told me several times that she did not desire me for SF near the end, and in Dec 2006 she told me and the kids that she was moving away right after the holidays in early Jan '07 (We were both 38 at the time)

I do understand what you are going through right now, and the utter confusion, hurt, and indecisiveness you are experiencing. I made a lot of mistakes during that time in my life, and hopefully you will be able to do better and possibly save your family.

You need to decide what YOU want, and as LA posted, not base YOUR actions on possible outcomes (divorce or separation) or base your actions on your wife's choices. Right now, you don't understand the way your wife is acting, and it totally confuses you. Well, her actions and what she may or may not choose to do does not affect your choices or your responsibility to your children.

Yes, your wife is in a Wayward state right now...regardless if she is in an A...she is still acting in a completely selfish manner, and may decide to break up your family based on her skewed perceptions of what she is lacking. I understand you questioning whether you would want to fight for M where your W could even consider hurting your family for what she is lacking, but I decided to fight for my M and family.

I could not just make arbitrary choices like the STBXW (or your W) to hurt the family without taking into account all of our prior choices...such as getting M'd, buying a home together, or most importantly bringing children into this world. You may or may not be able to affect the ultimate outcome (Reconciliation or Divorce), but you can do what's right for your family as long as you can.

The best thing for your children is for you to stay in the home, and for you to remain their primary caregiver. If your W is determined to leave and hurt your children, you cannot stop her or alter her choices, but she cannot legally take the children without your permission or a court order. Even if she does leave, it does not mean that your choices are limited...you can still follow Plan A and keep your heart open for your M as long as you can...

If you decide that you want to keep your M and family together, what you do is follow Plan A. You be be strong, but pleasant. You work on yourself and meet as many of her EN's as she will allow, but you do not speak of, or agree to a separation or D. If she wants to do it, she can leave the marital home and the children. You accept her choices without begging or pleading, but again, her choices do not affect yours...you can still work on improving yourself, and continue to meet as many EN's as she will allow, but you do not have to be a doormat because you are acting from your own code.

If she wants to file for D, then she can, and at you take appropriate actions to protect yourself and your children...but again, that does not mean you have base your choices on hers. As for your questions as to how long do you wait....I can tell you from experience that you will know when it is time choose to move on and close your heart to the hope of reconciliation....again it is your choice of when to do that, and it has no bearing on possible outcomes, or her choices.

BTW, so far, I have maintained primary custody of my children through both an initial court battle, and a full-blown custody evaluation (requested by STBXW) since the separation (18 mos now), so do not just swallow the outdating thinking that children are better off with their mother. I am now in another custody battle started by STBXW (I know that I owe you an update LA), although I am pretty confident that the courts will again rule in my favor.

Also, early in Jan 07, I told STBXW that she could just leave...after six weeks of me begging and being depressed that she was going to leave me and the kids...and that same day she did a complete about face, and then she really wanted to rebuild the M. She even asked me to renew our vows, and we had four months of what I though was real happiness. Ultimately, she completely flip-flopped again in May of that year, and filed for D two mos later. I still don't really understand how she could could go from one extreme to the other extreme, and back again is a very short time, but it happened nonetheless. I guess that she could have been playing me during those four mos, but I still believe that it was real, even though it did not work out long-term. Nor do I regret trying to rebuild the M and the family.

I don't post much, so hopefully something I have posted will shed some light for you in your situation.

Thanks,

LoBoy

Lostboy,

Thank you very much for the reply. I want to fight for what's right and I really don't believe I should be the one to walk away from anything.
And again, I have no proof of any affair. My wife goes to work and comes home after and she has one of those tollway things in her car, it never misses a beat. She is home on weekends, no odd calls, nothing. I have access to a lot of stuff and I can't really find one thing that points to any sort of an affair.
The only thing that keeps making me suspect something is that other people keep saying it has to be an affair. If she is infatuated mentally by someone at work I doubt you could ever really prove that.

I appreciate your post very much, it makes a lot of good points.

SC:

If you don't want to walk away, then you don't. If you want to fight for your M and your family, then you do it...regardless of what your wife has been saying, or will continue to say. Right now, she is in a Wayward state of mind...whether she is actually involved in an A or not. That was one of the things that I learned about after STBXW left. Waywardness is a state of mind. It is not a specific descriptor solely reserved for those in an active A.

A Wayward is someone who is completely selfish. A Wayward is someone who would sacrifice others' well-being that they purport to love to satisfy their selfish desires. AND, a Wayward will fabricate justifications, skew their perceptions, and re-write history as a self-preservation tool to help ease, or erase their guilt. Sounds just like someone involved in an affair. Also sounds exactly like someone going through the classic mid-life crisis (MLC).

So, it really doesn't matter whether she is actually involved in an affair, and you cannot let your uncertainty of whether she is in an A affect your choice to fight for your M. Plan A is the best method you have to combat an Affair, and it is also the best method you have to combat a Wayward state of mind...a MLC. I am not telling you to stop snooping or trying to determine if there is an A, it's just that whether you have proof, or not, should not affect the plan that you use to fight for your family.

In Plan A, you work on yourself, be pleasant (but firm), and meet as many EN's as your W will allow...while not sacrificing yourself and not sheltering your W from the consequences of her choices. The basic premise is that you make yourself the most attractive alternative, but ultimately your W will make her own choices and decisions. Either way, you are better off...you either save your family and your W will someday thank you for it, or you make yourself into a better person than you are now.

Another poster suggested that instead of wasting additional money on a counsellor that is probably not helping your M, that you should call the Harley's for telephone counseling. That is the first thing that you should do. The Harley's are experts at this, and they have a way of breaking through that Wayward/selfish mentality (fog). Even if your W chooses not to participate in the Harley's counseling, they will give you real-world advice and actions to follow to help you break through the Waywardness...they are your best option...along with reading their books, and reading here on the forums, and asking for advice here to supplement what the advice you get from the Harleys.

Thanks,

LoBoy

SC,

I do not doubt you are a good guy and I hear you saying you understand when wives leave bad guys, is that close?

Wives leave. Stop there. So do husbands.

Wives also return. So do husbands.

Try cutting off the judgment from the facts and see if your pain eases a little. It's a self-reality dose.



Okay, here's the formula that LB laid out for you for a wayward state of mind...(provided by another poster, Gimble)...

An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

Focus on the ingredients in your case...entitlement, resentment, lacking respect.

What I did was to make a crust of resentment, liberally applied lack of respect, and hardened it into entitlement.

It's a process, not an event. You said about two years.

I focused on lack, rewrote history (back and forth, btw), and then believed my own self-deception.

So be the anti-entitlement through resentment person. Be the antidote to that state of mind. Here's some steps you can take right now...

Choose your marriage. Point blank. It's the right thing to do, to keep those vows you made to yourself on your wedding day.

Done. Check.

Each time she wants to discuss separation or divorce...say "I don't do divorce, I do marriage. I'll be happy to listen to your thoughts, though."

Again...it's the truth...not manipulation. Don't say it if it isn't the truth.

That crust of resentment cut me off from feeling desirous of my DH...of feeling my love, so experiencing it. And resentment kept me from acting from love, so I didn't feel it on top of the resentment. I discounted, dismissed and denied his love deposits. Then I pointed my finger at him for not making them.

Wasn't the truth at all...'k? So you can stop being perplexed. You're right. Doesn't make since to you. That's okay. Doesn't have to...listen to know and repeat back, like the other poster said, so she can hear her words, and you can do your best to confirm or clarify. Be very, very safe to talk with.

Don't lay down and don't avoid conflict. You put that sterling honesty first. Do what believer and FF and the others said...do not leave your home. Do not let her take the kids. I don't believe she'll leave, btw, because you are going to rock her world.

Another step...and they aren't earthshaking, yet they make all the difference.


Do yourself and stop the judging..."nice" "back peddle"...sucks your focus to all over her...and my guess this is how you got to right now in your marriage...her focus was all over you, not her, and her lack, 'k? Don't go there. Lead the new path.

When you think to yourself you're not getting much out of counseling, ask yourself to get more out of it...and if you've determined this is not the pro-marriage, Christian counselor who specializes in saving marriages, then stop it. For both of you. Confront the counselor...tell him/her what you need, that you're fighting for what is most precious to you, your marriage. Ask them to step up or step off and recommend someone who will do joint sessions or if your wife needs a specialist in sexual abuse...ask for it.

Like you did in coming here...and then receive it. You are that brave, that courageous and that true...know you are.

LA

LA, I can't express how much I appreciate your detailed post. I have read it through a couple of times and will probably read it over a few more.

To answer the question about her mother, I don't think she focused on the future but she was a very cold person who did not express herself and was not a provider for the kids financially. She divorced the father and he wasn't a close person in her life. He passed away a little over a year ago.

One thing I am curious as to what yoy said, you said she won't leave because I am going to rock her world? Do you mean this because of these changes I can implement or because she cannot go through with it?

Thank you again for the post.

This is really good solid advice, SC.

There is an article somewhere called the walk away wife. I will try to find it or someone else may know where it is. It may be helpful as I think your confusion comes from not knowing where your W's state of mind is coming from. Please do not blame yourself or expend too much energy trying to go over the past to see if you missed something. Instead look forward, do a good solid plan A and prepare the fight for your children.

SC,

Don't know about her mother because she wasn't known...and again, "cold" is another judgment word which produces feelings instead of reality. Her mother was unknown, which to me, seems to be an extra special kind of pain in what is our first intimate relationship of our lives.

Worriers beget worriers...it's modeled as if we control the future by worrying it in the present. In reality, it's like praying for what we don't want.

Her father's passing, whether actively in her life or not, is a major trauma...even when we mitigate it. We can lose the same person more than once in this life, but with death, the opportunity ceases. Please consider grief reactions, as well. Good to talk about, share about...acknowledge, not dig.

Neither you, her partner, nor me, a really distant observer, can know what she will really do, SC. Don't live as if you know. Don't live the lie to yourself.

Rock your own world with different choices...a new mindset...acting from love, respect in the fight for your marriage will help NOT drain your love bank...you'll be making deposits instead of focusing on her withdrawals right now.

Plan A rocks worlds...which is what happens when you change your choices, which changes your patterns...changes your life. And I believe you will do this...my belief. What we've seen and experienced through Plan A...and what we pray for.



LA

PS...remember to thank yourself for reading, re-reading...doing what it takes...don't discount as too small, not enough or doesn't matter...it all matters, 'k?

Thanks again, LA.

There was a point where I was really focusing on the positive, I was doing the opposite of instinct trying to turn things around. But thanks to emotion I have made 'withdrawals' time and time again, just as she is making them.
I wasn't really aware of what was going on because my own fear and anger would take over, or at least I allowed myself to react to that.
Hopefully I haven't done too much damage.

You said in an earlier post that she is still there but one reason we are still together from her perspective is because of the holidays, which held her back from spoiling the kids holiday season. I'm hoping it was more than that.

Fear and anger are difficult emotions to control in all of this but reading some of the things here it gives me new inspiration and hope, and hope is a needed thing in this.

Ok so this is just an update post so those that were kind enough to help me know where I am at today.

It's been almost 5 months since this began. I'm pretty much stuck in the same place when we started. My wife has these feelings, or lack of which involve intimacy towards me. There was talk of whether or not she ever had this deep desire for me, which hurt quite a bit and I'm not altogether sure what to believe.

She goes still to individual counseling however I went to the last session and the counselor says she is "suffering". I'm not sure what to make if this suffering or how I can help her to not suffer but feel I am the cause since she wrestles with this uncertainty.

I was under the impression that she wanted to make some sort of split or break or divorce once we went through the holidays but now that they have passed she is still acting like she does not know what she wants as if she is in a confused state.

We had decided on taking short breaks to cool down. One weekend she went away and the following weekend I went away but I won't do that again.
I left for the weekend and my daughter texted me that our Dog had been crying. I thought his leg was bothering him again but it was something else. When I came home early from my weekend break I found my dog dead on the floor.
I told my daughter when I came home I would take him to the vet. So adding insult to injury I lost my dog and didn't get the chance to help him because I was not there.

Anyway, I have been working on the things mentioned in this thread, doing some of my own things, going to the health club to work out etc. but this constant uncertainty is driving me crazy.
Like I said, it's been almost 5 months and my wife is still in this state of confusion and there is no intimacy. Some of the things she has said to me have been really hurtful that have made me seem not very valuable and I resent the fact that she is putting us through this.

We have kids so my last option is to walk away but I just don't know how long I can keep going. My "loving" sister in law was kind enough to give my wife the name of a family law attorney to get advice should we decide to separate. My wife went and met this attorney at a coffee shop to understand the process of separation, divorce, etc.

Needless to say i was pretty angry that my wife not only met with this person but didn't tell me about it until a week later. I knew she had called the woman but we were supposed to hold out taking these little short breaks. After the dog died I won't be taking any more until someone legally orders me from my home.

Anyway, the questions I have at this point is how long one should endure. If my wife is truly confused and I truly love her then I give her unlimited time? I guess that is the case but having something missing in the home is no way to live and thinking she could drop the hammer at any moment is no way to live in anxiety either.

So I dunno, I'm rambling but any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

SC,

I think it is really simple. She wants to go off and chase HER desire, the one she said she never had or lost. Fine, offer her her freedom, but you stay in the home, you get custody of the children. They none of the above including you are as important as her "desire" to have "desire". So offer her, the out, she is out.

I would also seek legal counsel NOW! You don't have to keep putting up with this, but you do need to be home for the kids, you might as well have your home. There is no free lunch and if your W wants rid of you, then she leaves. Clearly you spend more time with the kids, you focus on them more, and you have a job that allows you the freedom to be with them when they need it.

IF she decides she wants to work on this use the tools on this site. If she is undecided, the you don't LB, you basically plan A, and you be civil, but you be very firm about who is leaving the home.

You are only stuck for as long as you want to be stuck. You can file, you can seek a legal separation and have her move. She wants to "ponder" her future at great cost to you. I say let her "ponder" her future without cost to you, you keep the home and the kids, and she can pay support.

Seek counseling and make your own plans. Her counselor is only telling her what will make HER feel good, not what is good for your family or you. You are going to have to be the one to protect your family. Do it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I'm betting there is an EA going on at the office and she wants to hook up, when you are out of the picture.

Thanks for the reply, JL.
One of the main things that keeps me from doing anything on my end such as legal counsel, etc is 1. My wife is still going to counseling. 2. She seems very confused like she doesn't know what to do and the impression that she is messed up inside as if she is having a classic mid life crisis.
I have done a fair amount of snooping, if there is an EA or PA I have not been able to find any and quite honestly at this point I don't care to search anymore. I'm just tired of living in a state of uncertainty.

My wife has assured me time and time again that if there was someone else she would have told me and that it would at least explain things. Now I am not naive I do realize people lie but if our marriage is over there really is no need to lie at this point. The only reason I would want to know is if there was a PA I would probably be quicker to end things rather than trying to work on things.

As far as a legal separation, I am curious why you would suggest that as opposed to just a mutual trial separation? I also get the indication from the wife that she would not leave and fight for custody if it came down to it. I don't want my kids to have to go through anything like that and I would also be concerned about sabotaging any reconciliation.


You are right on about the desire comment you made and about me being "stuck" I don't want to be stuck another minute but with kids in the picture and her being in what seems to be this state of confusion, it keeps me from making a more permanent decision not just for reconciliation but for the kids sake. I can't just end things because I feel like it without taking their lives into consideration.

I'm hoping there is no affair and the wife is just having a classic MLC and through some counseling she will come around. It's just that 5 months seems like a long time and I have a hard time seeing her do this 180 where she becomes this loving wife who suddenly develops a desire that she may have never even had. I'm going to be 41 this year and I want someone to spend my life with. I don't want to waste another moment but I don't want to just throw things away when they may be able to be salvaged too.

I also don't want to initiate some legal battle that is going to put my children through any added grief either. I'm trying not to LB, I have done some off and on but lately I have been doing well, I hope to keep that up.

Thanks again for the reply.

SC, what do you know about this IC she is seeing? I think IC can be very destructive to a marriage. My own mother went to IC and was given "permission" to have an affair and encouraged to leave my father. My former IC did something very similar. Not very marriage friendly, is it?

I believe JL is advising you to protect yourself and your children legally, especially if your W is seeking legal counsel. Do you have legal separation in your state that allows you to continue to reside in the same home? Here in California you can do that. Once LS is in place, it can be changed to divorce faily simply but the custody issues have already been ironed out in the LS.

I am glad you are refusing to leave your home and your children.

FF, the counselor she is seeing is trained in many areas including couples counseling, marriage, divorce, individual etc.
We saw the counselor together initially and then separate and then together again.
I guess he came to the conclusion that she was the one that needed therapy and it was up to me if I wanted to come alone as well.
I went a couple of times but all it really did was me saying I want my marriage to work, etc. etc.
In the case of my wife she seems really messed up emotionally. There is something there we are not getting at and I think that is why he felt individual counseling was better for her.
I'm not saying the problem is all on her as a 50 percent partner in the marriage and I am not perfect by any means but my wife says I am a good man, father, etc and that she isn't being a good wife to me and that she has this desire issue.

One email she sent to her brother she basically said all of the same stuff and that there was no other person and she was afraid to stay in the marriage because she has this desire and afraid to leave because maybe she is making a terrible mistake.

It's this loop she is caught in that is making me hang on. I mean, I vowed to her for better or worse. If I leave her now in her moment of need and this is our 'worst' I may always regret giving up and not being more patient.

And then there are issues with my faith. I have no cause to separate or divorce my wife. Seeing an attorney just seems so final, it seems like a lack of faith on my part.

I don't really see where legal separation is really necessary at this point. We are getting along but we are just two distant people living in a house where one of us is confused, and the other, myself is waiting on her to "figure it all out".

Which is kind of what she is telling me. She gives me a lot of "I don't know". The counselor said it was her main thing to say and she gives me the impression that part of her wants out and part doesn't.

It's put me in a really sorry state. I feel betrayed in some ways because I have been a good man, I do a lot of the cooking, cleaning, kid stuff and I have my own business. She works a lot and has a stressful job but she put herself into that position.
She tends to build up walls between herself and others and not let people get too close.

I know I am rambling again but her confusion has left me in a state of confusion now. There is part of me that feels betrayed, that I don't deserve for her to have done this to me and hurt me and that I want a conclusion and then there is a part that keeps hoping and hanging on. I don't know which is going to win.

And there is the part of me that i don't want to take anything from her or the kids and that I would be willing to see them have everything. I would sacrifice myself if everyone could be happy. I just don't have any answers and i guess no one can tell you what to do.

So it's been a couple weeks since my last post. The holidays have came and went and I thought for certain my wife has been hanging on because of the kids and not wanting to wreck their holidays but I am still here, we are still together.

I believe I have a pretty clear mental picture of what is going on with my wife emotionally. I don't believe I could meet her number one EN because I believe she has
taken it upon herself all of these years to meet that need which is one of security.
In essence, my wife is a workaholic.

I have enabled her by being there for the kids and yet at the same time I have developed not just one business but 2 so that I could still generate an income and have the flexibility to be available for the kids.

I still hold to the idea my wife does not see a business as one of being reliable or something tangible like working and getting a paycheck, having benefits etc etc.
When I lost my "real" job 6 years ago I believe this put pressure on her to meet her need for security even greater.

At the same time my wife was able to develop a career where she has probably doubled what I earned even when I had a "real" job. But at the cost for her working longer hours.

In a sense I believe she blames me for not meeting her needs yet she has taken it upon herself to meet her needs. So her workaholic ethic has been herself trying to meet her own emotional needs. I believe she does not trust anyone enough to meet this need and takes it totally upon herself.

I wrote her a letter to this effect and she does agree but ironically it brings us back to the same question we had before. Does she still love me or feel an obligation or responsibility to me? She said she's not ready to "give up on me" but it's as if she needs to go through with a divorce so she can truly find out if she loved me or not.
I find it incredible that one would have to go to that length to sort out one's emotions.
So here I am, still going through the day to day hoping that she can sort things out. She's still seeing a counselor and still is confused.

I'm still a little uncertain as to exactly what I should be doing. I question whether or not getting a 'real' job would be an option but I just don't know. Is that the answer to meet her emotional needs? As to the others, the only one I can really meet is the domestic one, taking care of the house & kids because she is shut down to me on the intimacy level.

I almost feel like I need to be doing SOMETHING but I just don't know what that is. I question if removing myself from the situation would bring her out of the fog she is in but I can't because of the kids. They are my top priority here.
So we keep on spinning our wheels and going through each day with uncertainty and tension.
Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.