I discovered MB just over a week ago and have been reading as much as I can. I wish I had found this site 3 months ago and been able to put the advice (especially plan A) into action.

My W told me she was having an A in early October. Apparently this had been going on for 5 years, but had escalated during 2008 (in terms of time spent with OM and presumably emotional feelings for him). I think that the pressure my WW was under led to her revealing the A to me.

Strangely, without knowing this site, I have done some of the plan A ideas. Due to shock I hardly remember anything about the first 4 days after D-day, other than the usual angry outburst. Initially we spent many long evenings during which I discovered the EN I had not been meeting - undivided attention, domestic help, help looking after our son, showing affection. I said I would address these issues and she finished with the OM, who then bombarded her with texts and telephone messages. It lasted a week and she was communicating again. She then said she wanted to move out (for space and time) and I messed up the response by breaking down and crying. But she stayed but said she could not live without seeing him. I do not know if in recent months I have been in the middle of a break up or reconciliation. I did not know if W could not make a decision, genuinely needed time and space, was holding on because OM was unable to move home until 2009 or even that she could return to the situation prior to D-day.

November saw a period in which WW very depressed and often in a bad mood and eventually near the end of the month she told me it was all over. My reaction was cool and responsible and I said I respected her decision. A few hours later she changed her mind and late in the evening she finished with the OM. What a day!

For December it was agreed that we would not talk about the problem so that Christmas would be pleasant for our son. I thought that throughout this period she was not seeing or contacting OM, but on Christmas Day evening she told me she was back in contact. Unfortunately, I went crazy and verbally abused her saying all sorts of things that I now regret.

My WW has now gone on to arrange accomodation with OM and will be leaving with our son in February. But she has not yet signed the contract. I don't know how to react. I have hope because she says she still loves me ('but in a different way' i.e. let us be friends) and most of the time we are pleasant to each other and enjoy each otheres company. Also she says that she has doubts about the OM (he has a very low income, they have different tastes and interests, she doesn't know how he will get on with our son). She has twic in 3 months ditched OM, albeit not for long. On the other hand I wonder if I have been wasting my time and that she always planned to leave in February 2009 when it was possible to move in with OM.

Today, I am wondering whether to ask WW to reconsider moving out (she may not, of course) for the sake of our son and then try to implement plan A. Alternatively I could let her go and start plan A. Or should I go to plan B now? Or give up?

Welcome! I've only been on this site for 10 days. Feels so great to have the support and feedback presented here.

I feel you pain, having been through two DDay's. Read, read and read some more. This site is GREAT.

If I were placed in your situation there is no way in hell that I would let my WW take my child out of the house to live with another man. if she wants to leave, she does it without our child. That's just me. You may get different feedback from other people here...I'm just saying what I feel.

She's in the fog and doesn't know really what she wants (some here call it affair-crack, or something like that).

You need to remain calm, cool and collected. Work on ENs and stay focused. Avoid outbursts (LBs) as they are obviously scaring your wife. Keep reading, reading and reading.

You may need or want to expose the affair to friends, family and OM's friends, family, etc.

Read, read, read and read some more. And feel the support offered here! I personally could not have gotten this far without the GREAT support offered here!

Hang in there my friend, brighter days lie ahead!

Kangkok,
So sorry for your heartache. My advice is based on the goal of you growing a new and better marriage with her. To that end I recommend whole heartedly do PLAN A with gusto. Give it everything you have, every oz of energy you have. As I always tell people, because its what other MBers told me and is very true, that this may be the hardest thing you ever do. But the goal is well worth it. Not to put the pieces back together of your old marriage but to learn, grow and develop a new marriage. And let your WW know that you want a new marriage where you are committed to making her the happiest wife in the world by meeting her needs first and foremost everyday!!! Ask her this: “Honey, if I found a professional, proven, plan that has helped 1000's of other couples have a great marriage would you consider looking at that plan with me?” Then give her HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS book by Dr Harley. Meanwhile you read SAA.

Be prepared for a long road of broken no contact with OM. Think of her as addicted to a drug. Addicts stop at NOTHING to get their fixes. You should not trust but also don’t love bust.

Who knows where your marriage and family are headed BUT you can give it your best shot by giving plan A 110%. Frankly I am encouraged for you as it seems your wife is already making attempts to end contact. Also, there is a common theme among affairs that people tend to “affair down”. Like you said the OM has little income. That is a big plus for you. Why?

Trust me when I say she is scared too. Scared of going forward with him and scared of going back to you because of the past hurts. Scared of both left and right. She is stuck, confused, hurt, angry, all sorts of emotions are running very high!! Thats why you offer her not your old marriage but a new one with new goals of becoming One. That's God's plan, that husband and wife become One. In thought, emotion, mentally, physically, spiritually. You be the rock, the lighthouse, the guardian of your family. Win at all costs! The OM is a lowlife scum (but never tell her that!) that must be defeated for the sake of your son and family and honor.

You have very powerful knowledge & experience here so please feel optimistic. The most powerful position you can be in is a man who is self confident and growing. Not c-o-c-k-y (to avoid censors), but especially not groveling to her. Invite her to dates, events, school functions, but be prepared for her to not accept. Fulfill her ENs whenever you can however she will let you. Keep making those deposits in her love bank. Fill it up to the top (might take 6 months) and see what happens. If you do a good job at that the chances are very good for having a great new marriage. Remember the rule of thumb: 1 love busting event equals a withdrawal of 5-7 deposits you worked so hard to make. Be careful. And you are in a very unfair fight as the OM has built up a big account with her whereas yours might be near zero.

You seem very level headed which is a great trait to have for plan A since you will need it to avoid love busting which is soooo easy to do in this sitch. Again, stop all love busting. In order for her to see you as a legitimate choice you must win her back. How do you do that? By being kind, helpful (do the dishes), loving (make her coffee every day!), caring (I care enough about you to vaccum and dust), fun, creative, romantic, great father, etc etc. You must reconnect with you wife on her emotional, touchy, feely level. Not on your physical sexual level.

Oh yeah, regarding her flip flopping and changing her mind hour by hour. You should expect more of that if your plan A is going as it should. I experienced first hand my WW apologizing to me in the morning and then telling me she was leaving that same evening! It will be a roller coaster ride and you should prepare for that. That’s when you know Plan A is working. She has gotten all tangled up in the OM and it will take time to unravel that connection. "She can't live without him!" blah blah blah. Don't pay attention to her words, pay attention to her actions. She is still with you in your house. Celebrate that every moment.

Dr. Harley says that the WS needs to go cold turkey and commit to NC but in my experience it happened as a slow fade away. Dr. Harley’s way would be nice but I think most WSs break no contact many times. Just keep up the love deposits not because she deserves them but because you are acting on the principle of loving her no matter if she is acting like a brat or what your feelings tell you to do.

One more thing, how is it she can just leave with your child?? Don't let her do that. If she chooses to leave your house thats her decision but she doesn't get to take your son with her. Get legal advice, do not leave your home, do not let her take your son.

DNU1,
Thanks for your response and views. My sympathy to you too. Yes, there is much to read and learn - I'm on the job. My recent outburst was stupid and did affect my W severely - I have learned from that mistake. I'm uncertain about the exposure tactic.
Good luck for your future.

Hang in there kangkok!

Strong words BigPicture! Inspiring to me...and this ain't my thread!

Read up on exposure...hard to do, but results are proven. Again, I'm thankful that I don't have to go through the exposure thing again. Did that in A#1, well sort of. WW was pretty much done with OM#1 and wanted to come back to marriage.

Now I'm just waiting for WW to finish withdrawl from OM#2. Patience, patience, patience...(keeps reminding himself).

big picture, thank you for your long and informative response which has inspired and lifted me. Much reading and thinking to do.Unfortunately I have to sign off now but will return tomorrow. If anyone else can offer comments, help etc they will be gratefully recieved. Thank you all in advance for your contributions.

Just a short update. Suggested to WW tonight (i am in U.K.) that she should reconsider moving out for the sake of our son. She quickly moved into a silent depression and would not talk. An uncomfortable evening and I am no wiser as to her immediate plans.

K,
I had many evenings of pure he** dealing with all her crazy emotions, one minute asking me to reconnect the next telling me she didn't care about me anymore. Expect more of it. Just keep acting on your principles and morals, NOT on your feelings. Keep the goal in mind. Before taking any action or reacting to her messy stuff, ask yourself is what I am about to say or do going to get me closer to my goal or move me further away from it??

As much as you can, try to put the A out of your mind. Keep treating her like the wife you love and care for. Even in the darkest hours I cried in the car instead of in front of her. Remain calm, be self confident, know that you will be fine whether with her or without her. She can choose to leave. That is her choice and you cannot stop that. You can only bring reality in what you say to her. "Honey, leaving is your choice. I will be very sad to see you go and the resulting breakup of our wonderful family. What will we do with all these pictures of us?"

I recall early on that my wife was feeling LOTS of pressure from everyone, her family, her friends, me, OM, etc. It was really beating her down. Know what I did? I removed the pressure. I said "You are free to go. I don't want you to leave. You can justify leaving our marriage because of our past but our past is not our future. We can learn, grow and find a great new marriage based on MBers methods."

IMHO, she is scared and has plans that seem to make sense but as you create safe loving warm home of acceptance and care, she will begin to doubt her decision. And the indecision will make her feel trapped. Don't try to educate her or teach her. Just state your feelings and what your intentions are. She will respond to a man of self confidence. You are a winner and you will win this fight against evil. It has been said that the devil's number one goal is to separate husband and wife. 2ndly is to separate a father from his children. Don't let that happen.

Remember how women work vs. men. A woman tells her husband about her problematic day and what does he do? He offers solutions to fix things. Naturally. BUT WRONG. Don't try to fix her. Just feel her. Empathize, sympathize, confirm her feelings, affirm her feelings, support her, be there for her.

Tell her your marriage will not work with a 3rd person in it. Your boundaries are no contact. Reinforce that with simple plain talk. Not love busting. If you catch her in a lie just say "Everytime you speak to him you destroy a part of our life together. Please stop."

Also, I would try not discussing your relationship much. Right now she has no idea what to think of it and you bringing it up a lot will just add to the pressure. Don't add pressure. Just bring truth in word and action. I would even refrain from I Love You. More pressure since she is not sure if she loves you.

bigpicture,

Once again, thank you for your concern and comments. i am now learning through this site about the mistakes I have been making over the past few months and about the correct way forward. In particular I now understand about taking pressure away, although her potential move out is imminent (and it is PMT time) and I want her to reconsider.

Now I am waiting to see whether WW will move out of our home and stay with the OM. However, she does appear to have a lot of doubt. I think I will know her decision by the end of the week which is when they would be due to sign contracts.

kangkok: Been thinking about your situation and I'm feeling for you! Hang in there!

Wise words from BP. Hang in there!

I understand how you feel when you talk about your past mistakes. It is both eye opening and heart wrenching to learn you good intentions were in fact love busting. Don't kick yourself too hard...you didn't see the LB-ing, but she didn't communicate well to you either.

[BP brings up an interesting point when it comes to men v. women -- how are men supposed to know when women are just blowing off steam, or are actually looking for change/improvement/a FIX from their man? It's a double edged sword...sometimes I feel I can't win! Is she banging on me just to vent? Or is she banging on me to get me to change? Aaaaarrrgggghhhhh.]

Back to topic at hand. Again, hang in there. And don't let her take your child! I'm not sure what the courts would say in you land, but you might be wise to get legal council about your kiddo.

If she wants to leave, BP's advice seems sound...let her know that's her decision.

Again, hang in there, keep posting, keep reading and be strong!

I have just recieved the following email from my WW.
_________________________________________________________________

I am feeling crap today thank you .

The only good news is I have got the house I wanted. I am moving out around 30th of January. I am not sure if it is good or bad thing to do but I cannot stay with you for another 6 months and have another 6 month of mental torture. It wouldn't bring
anything good just will drive me to the edge.

Can you please stop tormenting me with all the talks about(our son)? He will be fine if you will behave in normal and civilised manner. He will have loving parents as I hope you love him and will see him, all his toys, beloved bath entertainment, and
attention. Millions of children can dream about the life he has.

It is the best option for us before I have done something more dramatic or started to hate you.
________________________________________________________________

How should I reply? Should I send email or wait until later and talk to her at home?

Some ideas :
Say that it is her decision but I am sad and disappointed that she does not want to try and form a good marriage with me.
Say that I continue to care about her.
Suggest our son stays with me (in spite of advice above I think it might be better for him to be with his mother. She is responsible and I don't have any fears on that level. It would allow me the time to be at work and would be financially better)
Explain that she does not seem to understand the serious affect our separation would have on our son.

Two further thoughts - the WW seems to think that we will see each other a lot but would I not then be behaving like the OM?
Is the separation a good thing as she will discover that life is not a bed of roses with the OM?

Thoughts, advice, comments urgently needed and welcolmed.

(thank DNU1 for your support)

kangkok,

I second everything said by bigpicture. Your WW is almost certainly going through an infatuation with her OM, just as my FWW had with her OM. She still loves you, but right now is addicted to the euphoria and exstacy being caused by her relationship with OM. That explains her erratic behavior. Deep down, she wants to do what's right, but she's terribly confused and becomes very depressed and gittery when she hasn't been with OM for a short while. That is because she is addicted to the hormones being produced from her relationship.

All I can say from my experience is be kind, considerate and patient. If this is an infatuation (and it has all the symptoms), it will pass, usually in about 6 months. My FWW ended her A when she said her feelings for OM just fizzled. That happened about 5-1/2 months after what she considered the beginning of their love affair. She said, during her affair, that she would look at herself in the mirror, and didn't know the person looking back.

But she did say that what kept her hanging on with me was my patience and my kindness and consideration (from my Plan A). She said, in the beginning, when I was angry, demanding and judgmental after finding out about the affair (and before I discovered this site and Dr. Harley's books), I just drove her closer to OM. But once I ended those lovebusters, and acted patient, but not supplicant, she said she couldn't leave me.

Once her feelings for OM began to fizzle (as the infatuation subsided) she worked up the strength to end everything with OM. Now, 5 months after NC, she now says she doesn't know what she saw in OM, or what attracted her to him in the first place. This is in contrast to 3 months prior to NC when she was making wedding plans with OM. She's as befuddled by her behavior as I was. The only way she can explain it as was a temporary insanity.

So, I would recommend everything that bigpicture has recommended, and just be patient and hang in there, with the knowledge and hope that this too will pass.

Good luck

kangkok,

I just read her email. She is obviously still in a state of confusion over her feelings between you and OM. That is good, in that she still is in love with you. I would let her know that you still care about her, and will do what it takes to save your marriage. But, do it gently, without any expectation of a reply or commitment.

But, at the same time, politely let her know the possibly consequences of her actions. For me, when FWW was talking divorce, I let her know that, if that was her choice and she filed, then the house would go up for sale. She had expected to continue living there (and presumably let OM move in) and have me continue to pay the mortgage as part of alimony. I told her, that if it came to that point, I wasn't willing to do that. I wanted my name off the mortgage; otherwise I probably couldn't qualify for another. Since we had no minor children of our own, a court would likely order the house sold as part of the division of marital assets and she would get half of what little equity we had in it. (She'd also have to move into OM's dumpy trailer and join him and his other white trash neighbors. lol.) I told her if she didn't believe me, feel free to check with a lawyer (which she did, and decided not to file for divorce).

In your sitch, as the contract date approaches at the end of January, you may consider discussing with her the legal ramifications of her actions; that, in addition to adultery, you'd consider her actions as desertion. Plus, she is taking your child away from his home. In light of that, you will strongly consider seeking full custody of your child (to maintain him in the home he is accustomed to) and seek child support from her (I don't know your state, so check with a lawyer). This will make her mad, but it is still consistent with plan A, if done calmly and matter-of-factly, without any perceived attitude of manipulation.

DNU,

Quickly as I am at work but I think what you are missing is that by confirming her, affirming her feelings, listening without judgement, empathize, sympathize, don't offer solutions. By doing all that you have changed from typical male. You have related to her as she wants you to, as a partner who FEELS her emotional life. Her (women in genral) emotional lives are so much more than men's in general. We don't think twice about must stuff and they are thinking umpteen times about it ALL! That is their nature. Men mostly just don't get that riled up. So to change is simply to be there for her and with her.

DNU,
very wise assessment to realize that the way in which we want love is the way which we express it the most. For most men, they want SF so they try to naturally have sex with spouse. Ahh but spouse only wants sex after domestic help if fulfilled. Each is speaking their own primary love language and both are missing the mark for their spouse!!!!!!

This realization is profound and necessary to create great marriages.

I second this. Talk to your lawyer NOW. Your WW has indicated to your her plans to remove your child from your home, which actually gives you an advantage here. Talk with your lawyer to see if anything can be put in place to ensure that your child cannot be permanently taken your home without your permission, then notify your WW accordingly.

Unable to read your entire post now K but another alternative action...

Send communication to other man that says

Please know that I will do whatever it takes to save my marriage for the sake of my wife and my beautiful 8 yr old son who we both adore. Nothing will stop me from achieving this.

This lets OM know he has a serious contender who will fight to the end. That should help OM lean towards giving her up based on all that kind of baggage.

How to have a Powerful Plan A!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=1990997

I am finding much comfort from the replies to my thread and through reading others. It is nice not to be alone. I remain upset and fearful of the future but have shown care and confidence in front of my WW.

We had little time together yesterday due to work commitments at different times. Nevertheless she showed care towards me and has returned to giving me a welcome home/departing home peck on the cheek and a goodnight hug. Also she has shown more favourable body language - for example when we sat together on the sofa her legs were crossed towards me rather than away as they have been in recent weeks. She has stated that she does not want a divorce at the moment even though she is moving out.

I now have a window of opportunity during the next 3 weeks while she remains at home before moving to her new home with the OM. I presume I must continue with plan A in this time, trying to be the best H I can, trying to fill EN where possible and trying to deposit love units. I feel I can achieve this without any angry outbursts as have happened in the past. Partly I think this is because at least our relationship is more honest now in that I know and she knows I know that she is in daily contact with the OM, i.e. it is in the open.

I have taken legal advice regarding our son. If she takes him it would not affect my rights or position if I seek custody in the future (at the point of plan B if required, or D). At the moment I still feel it is better for my son to be with his mother. She has always been an excellent mother and I have no worries there. I do of course have concern about the OM interacting with my son in their new environment.

However, I also fear the affect that the separation will have on my son. i am reading up on potential affects and how to handle them. My WW merely says that if we are loving and caring towards him and that we remain friends then he will be fine. She does not seem to appreciate the potentially damaging affects our separation will have on him.

As a start I am today composing letters to the school and the childminder we have to inform them of the situation. I guess this will be part of the exposure tactic. We intend to inform our son at the weekend.

Any comments on how to deal with the situation after my WW leaves would be appreciated (as well as any response to the above). My WW seems to think that much will continue as normal and she fully expects to visit me regularly for a chat and has said that I have will have full access to my son. I still feel that I would be acting aa bit like the OM i.e. they are together and I become the OM. Can someone put me straight on this? I assume that it is best to have no contact with OM (e.g. when collecting or returning my son from visits) and that I should not discuss my WWs relationship with the OM.

Well, still confused so any help from you all out there would be appreciated.

Kangkok, your WW is GAS-LIGHTING you into accepting what should be unacceptable! All those nice gestures that she's making towards you are all part of her gas-lighting technique. She is an active WW and is NOT to be trusted!

Go and ask your lawyer NOW what you can do to ensure that your son is NOT removed from your home. Do you really think that he would be better off living in another house with another man replacing your role? Do you really think your WW's adultery and your acceptance of her actions will be good behaviour models for him to follow?

Who knows - faced with the possibility of having to visit your son at YOUR home rather than allowing and controlling your visits to her home, she may decide that moving out would not be in her best interest.