I find it very surprising that a 'professional mediator' would behave like that. It doesn't sound like the kind of mediation I'm familiar with, so unless France is very different to the UK in its approach to mediation, I have my doubts as to whether this was a mediator at all.

If he really is some kind of marital negotiator, he must presumably have some kind of official registration and belong to some professional body? In the UK, that would be so. I would be interested to know whether the same requirement is held in France, and what this person's credentials are.

In my own (UK) experience, mediation is a process entered into by both spouses, and seeks to reach agreement on how to separate the family and finances BEFORE solicitors are engaged. There's an obvious adversarial aspect to it, but the mediator is there to damp down the emotions and manage the negotiation. If the situation becomes too confrontational, the mediation breaks down and it's left to the lawyers battling it out.

What you described, Tully, just sounds like bullying. It's astonishing to me that a professional mediator would BEGIN the mediation process with a threat like this.

Three days and then he'll have you thrown in prison? Let him do it. It will just make your WH look even more of a pr1ck than he already does.

The removal of the girls is the only tiny platform he has that counts as moral high-ground, so he's piling all his emotional energy onto that. Quite how he imagines that a kidnapping charge could possibly stick against the girls' own mother who has allowed him open access to the children, is...delusional.

{{Tully}}} This man has really put you through it.

TA

TA:
Quick t/j. Your sig says filed for D, but M recovered. Who filed? And how far did it go until you or WS stopped it? And the reason?

Back again. Yes, this mediator did leave a name and I googled him today at the library. I discovered that he is president of an association defending fathers' rights in the case of separation in mixed marriages. He himself was married to a Japanese woman with whom he had a daughter. The ex-wife and daughter now live in Japan and he has no access to his daughter. It appears that his ex-wife calls the police on him whenever he appears. I understand much better now his attitude. I will not be responding. WH is desperate at the moment. His life is closing in on him but I have a feeling that he has a long personal journey to make before he is ready to back down and try to reconcile with me and I doubt if I'll still be waiting. My brother estimates that he won't be ready for at least 2 years and I won't still be around for him then.

On a postive note, I have found accommodation for us. I am going to rent a house not far from my dad's house. There's some work to be done on it but it should be ready in 2/3 weeks. I took DD11 there this evening to see it and to allow her to choose her bedroom first. And I start delivering scones/muffins for the first time tomorrow. So an early start tomorrow.

Thanks all.

The exW is no doubt overreacting in the "mediator's" mind. :RollieEyes: If this guy is foggy out like WH that could be interesting. Ignore him unless you receive legal documents in writing. I can only imagine all the poor me garbage WH told him...break out the violins.

Good luck with the pastries and the new digs. Keeping busy may take the edge off.

[T/J]

HH, since you asked (and you may regret it, concise I am NOT ), I filed. After four years of struggle, I had a marriage where my H had done many of the right things, but had not at any point been able to cope with even the slightest hint of pain or distress on my part. I'm a naturally contained person - I didn't give him that hard a time at all - but even the slightest loss of self-control or expression of anguish from me caused him to become hostile and withdrawn, sometimes downright nasty. I wanted him to care about the pain he'd caused me and to comfort me and he wouldn't. There was one painful incident at a function, and it was the last straw. I'd had enough.

For almost a year, I slept on a camp-bed in my study. I found a solicitor and started to get my divorce act together. I was OUT.

The process is not quite the same here in the UK as in the US, I suspect - when I say 'filed', I mean that the initial very large document, for which you need all the financial and practical information, was prepared and sent to H by my solicitor. H got his own lawyer and we agreed the legal negotiation method we'd use. We investigated mediation and other ways of coming to a settlement. We couldn't afford to have one of us move out, so we'd have to do the whole process while co-habitating.

At this point, H began to wake up to the fact that I really meant it. I think he also knew that there was something wrong with his inability to respond to my pain. He just didn't want to confront it. My IC suggested a particular kind of couples counselling, and gave us a contact. H was keen to go. As an absolute last resort, I agreed to put the legal process on ice for a period, and do the counselling.

It was h3ll. The counsellor was great, but she was not about to pussyfoot around H, and she would not gloss over his apparent coldness. She drilled him right between the eyes, and we left session after session in stony silence with H furious and me crying all the way home. But to his credit he stuck at it, month after miserable month. We wrestled each other to a pulp. It wasn't pretty.

I expected counselling to change him, of course, but instead, it changed me. I had one of those moments of sudden clarity when I saw that his inner world was not like mine - his was full of fences and sharp places, and I saw that, no matter how hard he tried, he could never be the man I wanted him to be. He couldn't deal with the intensity of my emotions because he couldn't deal with intense emotions, period. He hadn't been able to deal with the normal intensity of a marriage, and now, although he was genuinely trying to deal with those normal emotions, he had this huge burden of GIANT emotions to deal with, and he couldn't handle it. Which wasn't 'fair' and it wasn't the marriage I felt entitled to. But if I accepted that he had this basic dysfunction, and accepted that I would never get the response from him that I 'deserved', what was left was actually a marriage that was closer and more honest than the 'good' marriages of many of my friends.

I also recognised that I'd spent most of my life desperate to be seen as perfectly lovable, and that if I let go of that need, I cold be honest with H about what I wanted, and honest with MYSELF about it too. I just needed to learn to live with the bad feelings if he reacted poorly. I learned that if I just rode it out, eventually his insecurity died down.

Nowadays, I do what's healthy for me, and don't react to H's behaviour. He can at times be jealous, and discouraging, and patronising...but you know what? I don't have to pay any attention to that. So I don't...and he settles down and relaxes. It had taken me nearly 50 years to learn not to leap to fit into someone else's emotional expectations.

My mother - the one who taught me to jump to her command - did not find the new TA at all palatable. She threw a huge tantrum and she and my father broke off all contact with me (and I'm an only child) for two years, apart from a series of very nasty phone-calls from my father. That was not easy to deal with, either, but I discovered that I could cope with the hatred. It wasn't my job to please and placate them so they would like me. 50 years to learn that!

As we left after the last day of counselling, H suddenly said 'I really want this to work'. In retrospect, I think that he'd taken in a LOT during the counselling, but just didn't want to give the counsellor the satisfaction of seeing she was right. I don't know whether it was the change in him, or the change in me, but we were a very different couple.

I'm certainly a very different woman. I have learned not to use the destructive mechanisms of taking offence and using tactical disappointment (all learned at my mother's knee). I've made it my policy to be honest with myself first, so I can be straight with other people. I have confidence in my own judgement, and I'm prepared to be disliked if I maintain my own course and don't fall in with others' opinions and desires. I can laugh at myself (never could, before), and don't have to be always right.

Things still hurt, of course. Something comes on the TV, or whatever, and I'm in that bad place. So now I tell H, and leave it at that, and expect nothing. And I've learned that, although he still can't do the arm/shoulder/hug/head-pat thing, invariably he will do something else - vacuum the carpets, clean the toilets, fix the curtain rail - because he knows I appreciate that, and it's the nearest he can get to doing comforting. I'd rather have the hug, but this is what I have.

About six months after counselling, I stood down the solicitor, which wasn't at all what I'd been expecting to do. What I know is that I will go down that road again if there is even a hint of betrayal, after all this work and pain. But I have accepted that my marriage is what it is - and it's really pretty good. Which is amazing, after all this nightmare.

Oh, and my mother re-established contact. She is now surprisingly respectful, and I work at being less sensitive to her criticism and put-downs.

When I say, in my sig-line, that it's taken a lot of work, I mean that it's taken a huge amount of personal change on the part of both of us, a lot of sticking with it when all that there seems to be is loathing and fear, a lot of feeling despair and utter misery and trusting God to be taking us to a better place, a lot of developing inner resources where there wasn't much before, a lot of accepting the burden instead of retreating into a martyred position, a lot of admitting to personal failings, a lot of not making excuses, a lot of creating boundaries where none existed...a lot.

I see the zest and innocence of those who haven't taken this grisly journey, and I feel sad. I've lost the innocence. But now I'm much more use to those who are going through their own grisly journeys, of whatever kind. God took away the froth, and gave me a bit of body, I suppose.

TA

Tully

Sorry about the phone call from the Messenger Of Evil (Moe for short), sorry about the threat, but CONGRATULATIONS on your scones and house!

If your solicitor feels your legal rights would best be protected by filing legal papers, by all means do it. Once the process is started, you can slow down and make it drag out as long as you want.

So good to hear from you!

TA, thanks for your story. It made me gulp (can't cry as I'm at work) and I see some synergies with my situation too. Marriage is hard work and you're proof that you can come back from the other side and be on top!

Tully, I feel so sad that you are in this place and that your WH has resorted to hateful acts. I know only too well what it feels like on the receiving end.

The new house sounds great and you are making some really amazing positive changes in your life for you and your girls. Whatever happens, R or D, I know you are going to be okay. Not only okay, but living the incredible life that you deserve.

Take care

Dear Tully,

I have read the latest developments. I'm so sorry. You are in my thoughts. I wish I could help you more but I can perhaps offer a few observations as an outsider with a legal background.

Many of the MB people here are mislead by the word "kidnapping" or abduction ("enlèvement" in French) being used here. It sounds like a serious crime but in fact it also refers to the removal (without any criminal intent) of a child who is habitually resident in one country, to another country without the approval or consent of a person (usually parent) who has (co-)custodial rights to the child.

The unfortunate difficulty in your situation is that the children had their legal and factual residence ("home") in France before you took them to Ireland. Under international law, your husband most likely has the law on his side if he starts a procedure to request their immediate return to France. This procedure is a civil law procedure and should be seen separate from any criminal issues. (based on The Hague Convention on international child abduction)

Up until now, it seems unlikely to me that there is any ground for criminal charges. This would be different however, in case you are ordered by a court or other authorities to return the children to France but you don't cooperate. At this stage, you are far from that situation, so I would not worry about that for the time being.

There is also other GOOD NEWS: I have done a quick google search on the matter and stumbled upon a very interesting article in the Irish Independant newspaper that you should definitely read and show to your attorney.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-a-haven-for-lovetug-abductors-1067059.html

Apparently, Irish courts tend to offer great protection to birth mothers and seem to have refused the return of several children under the Hague convention. This is good news for you and should be explored further. I would strongly suggest to look for an experienced Irish lawyer (perhaps the one handling the case referred to in the article)....because he may be able to help you keep the children in Ireland.

Your WH is clearly desperate and panicking. My take on the situation is as follows:

- WH knows that he may legally request you to bring the children back to France based on the the Hague Convention. However, if he starts this (civil) procedure, there will probably be police/social workers coming to your house in Ireland to investigate etc. WH is scared and worried that this will frighten the kids so he wants to avoid that. Also, if you refuse cooperation, there will be an ugly fight and you might even be subject to criminal consequences (but unlikely imo). Your WH does not want that because he fears that the children, when they grow up, may end up resenting him for that.
- Also, it is very possible that WH has done his research well and knows that he risks not getting the children back with this procedure because Ireland may refuse the return. So he needs other means to get them.
- WH has been talking to this "professional mediator" (PM) who is an extremely frustrated guy and probably commiserates greatly with your equally desperate WH. They probably made a plan to threaten you with criminal charges to scare you so much that you bring back the children. It is disgusting that this man poses as a mediator. To understand the "PM", you should know that Japan is not a party to this the Hague convention so that he has no legal recourse to even get in touch with his children. (In fact Japan is considered a renowned haven for child abduction: custody or visitation battles by a foreign parent against a Japanese parent in Japan is virtually always a lost cause).

So, I would not give in to these threats and make the best legal plan to keep the kids in Ireland.

I have a few other remarks and suggestions:

- I understand that your attorney is recommending you a separation agreement which will likely end up in you filing for divorce. Is this what you really want? I was under the impression that you want your husband to be the one filing, not you? By threatening you he is forcing you into something you may not want.

- Is it really necessary to file for separation followed by divorce filing in order to be in a better place when "a child abduction case progresses too far ". I'm not a French lawyer but I am wondering how that can help your case, assuming that you want to stay in Ireland (unless you can file in Ireland, see below). I would be inclined to think that doing nothing and let your WH take action is better. He might be scared to do anything and wait (just keep on threatening) . The longer your children are "at home" in Ireland, the better your chances of keeping them there.

- I do not have the means to research this but (if it comes to a divorce) would it be possible for you to get a divorce in Ireland? Most likely, you stand a much better chance there to get full custody of the children (with WH visitation rights).

- As a general rule, I would not blindly trust the opinion of just one lawyer. Best to research things yourself so that you can ask critical questions and trust your instinct when something sounds not right. Perhaps get a second opinion? I would strongly suggest that you also consult with an experienced Irish lawyer (see above).

I have done some research for you and think that these websites would be very helpful:

- http://www.international-divorce.com/ (this is an excellent website)
- http://www.international-divorce.com/ireland_child_abduction.htm
- http://www.enlevement-parental.justice.gouv.fr/index.php?rubrique=10655
- http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24

Dear Tully, I hope that the above is helping you a little bit. (Sorry if my English is not always very clear, it is not my mother tongue.) I wish you all the best.

PS On a more personal note, I'm very much a pro-marriage person, even more so than MB. Your WH husband is behaving horribly towards you but I believe that reconciliation is still possible and by far the best outcome for the sake of your children. It may take take an incredible amount of work, effort and flexibility but it can be done. I was very touched by TA's contribution. She seems a very wise and admirable lady and she has beautifully described what it may take. My own situation is a bit similar to hers (and to Sadsosad's). I'm 2 years into recovery from a very difficult marriage with multiple infidelities over a 15+ year period. A few weeks ago, I overheard my now 16-year old daughter discussing with her brother how amazing it is what marriage counseling can do and how mom and dad have changed so much because of it. I think it was one of the most beautiful moments of my life and it made me realize that it was all worth it.

Thank you for your contributions, everyone.

Silda, thank you for your expert knowledge and opinions. (Your English is perfect BTW) I know that WH is desperate and is not thinking ahead, just as he has never thought ahead to the consequences of his actions when he started the A and since then. If he does think at all he will know that if he takes a case for child abduction against me that the likelihood is that I will not end up with a prison sentence but whether I do or not he will lose the love and respect of his children, along with their custody.

As to whether to file for D or not. You are right that I didn't want to file before but now I am so fed-up with WH that I want to move on and reconstruct my life and I can't do that unless I have a legal separation in place. I have no income and I am in a precarious postion in that I am using the money from our joint account. WH is spending a huge amount of money coming to visit the children every week and this is draining our savings which are coming very close to zero. (Another month or two at this rate and we will have none left.) In the meantime I am living in my father's home and trying to cope in a situation that is not easy. The girls are sharing two double beds and every night I examine which bed has the most room for me. It's not great for my own well-being. We pay nothing in my dad's house but I need to manage my family within my own space and it's been 3 months now. I have the option of renting this house and I could get social welfare payments and children's allowance payments once I am legally separated which would be of great help over the next year while I sort myself out. Once we sell the house in France and I recover my half and I get sorted with working then I will be OK financially but until then I need more income.

My solicitor does not plan to file for D unless WH refuses the legal separation proposal she will send to him. However we are both expecting that he will refuse. In that case I will file for D. To be honest he has worn me down and I want to move on. I am very sorry for my children that they will lose out on having a united family but I can give them a loving one and I hope that will be enough for them. They have each other and as I know very well, sisters are wonderful. As for me, I don't want him back any more. I tried for a long time but he is not interested. Exactly 2 weeks ago I made a propostion which I told you about here. I asked if he was in love with OW and he refuses to answer. I then said that my propostion was only appropriate if he wasn't. I suggested that he tell her to get out of his life forever and that he then talk to the personnel dept at work to take the 5 months hols he has and that we would go to counselling in order to sort out our problems. He said that he didn't want to be with me and that the last thing he wanted was to spend the last 40 years of his life with me. This is, for me, perfectly clear.

TA, I have also made a realisation about my M, my relationship with WH and our relationship with our respective mothers. I had a wonderful mother who knew how to bring out the best in all 9 of her very different children. She had no pattern for how she wanted us to be but somehow she gave us self-respect, a tremendous respect for others and a deep love for each other. My husband's mother is a doormat who raised her son to believe that he is a 'golden boy' entitled to everything. Everyone must yield to him. Throughout our M I have been yielding and giving which suited him. In my times of need he was not there for me but I coped and forced myself to not take it too much to heart. I now realise that giving all the time is not a good thing. When I had less to give WH because of running the house, raising 4 small children and trying to write because it is something that fulfils and inspires me, he left our M at the first opportunity and never looked back. Our problems were minor, relatively speaking but the real problem was not in our M, it was in him. I've realised that we all need to live our lives for ourselves first and foremost, even if other people come very close behind. I will not give up my own self-respect, even for my children and I don't think they would thank me for the gift. I am the only person with whom I have to live 24/7 and I need to be able to like that person. If my children judge me harshly for that choice then I'll live with that but I know I would far, far rather that my girls keep their self-respect than keep their husbands so I hope they will accord me the same.
I would never have left my M of my own will but now that I see it from the outside under the harsh light of day rather than through the soft-focus of love, it looks like a much less attractive place to be.

And you should never go back into a M like you had. Until WH becomes FWH and MAKES the marriage an inviting and safe place for you, don't even consider it. Not that I think you were.

This sounds like an excellent understanding.

Have you read "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"?

It is almost as though we live in a fog while in the M. Have you heard of the story of how to cook a frog? Set it in a pot of cool water on the stove, turn up the flame, and by the time they realize they are being cooked, they have been mellowed and relaxed by the warm water and unable to jump.

So, after a lifetime of selfish acts, your WH steps it up every year becoming more and more selfish, till the final selfish act you decide to jump from. You tell him no more selfish R with the OW, and he looks at you dumbfounded because you've been accepting of his selfishness all along, why balk now?

Hmmmmm, so what does this say about your part in this? Did you see warning flags? Was there something you did or didn't do up til now? Were there times you could have, should have stood up, spoken up? What part of you have you been suppressing throughout your M that is time you restore?

I think one part you are working on now. A selfish H takes quite a bit of maintenance, and that energy was taken away from the children. Now you are giving much needed time and attention to the girls. Are they taking it well?

And what about you? What about caring for yourself? What about your voice?

And most importantly, what changes are you making in yourself to prevent this situation from happening again, either with WH or another partner?

You are well-spoken, bright, energetic, loving, and are coming out from the shadow of what seemed like an oppressive, needy man. How are you taking care of you?

Tully,

Just so you know, there are many of us across the pond praying for you. You are a rock.

Blessings,

Your mother would be proud. I am.

Great job as always, Tully!

Was thinking about you tonight. Hope you are at peace.

Thank you all. An especially big wave of love being sent to Neak and BR who have been the most incredible support for me in this difficult time.

Cinderella, I wouldn't exactly say that I'm at peace but I know I will come through the storm intact. I just need to sit tight and survive until it's all over.
WH is putting pressure on me to let the girls go to France next week for the mid-term break but I've been saying not until a legal signed separation is in place.

The house I plan to rent is moving along nicely. I'm hoping to move in in 2 weeks when the work is finished. Not sure how I'll cope financially but I'll borrow until our house in France is sold.

I still have some internet problems at home (I'm in the library at the mo) but it's probably just as well that I spend time with the children and don't fixate on messages.

I'll be back. I hope you are all doing OK.

Hi Tully,

I'm so glad you managed to come back and update us and that you are keeping well.

Here's a question from the idiot gallery:

Is a legal separation agreement legally enforceable? What redress do you have if WH refuses to return the girls, even with this signed agreement in place?

Remember, WH is being encouraged to play hardball by his "mediator", who has lost all access to his own child. He would probably advise anyone whose children have been taken abroad to seize the day should they ever get their hands on the children and trust the law to move slowly, or hope that legal deadlock will be reached. The "mediator" has already participated in the underhand tactic of threatening you and will press WH to use any means to get and keep the children on his turf.

What protection will the legal separation offer if this happens?

Hey tullster,

I'm doing well thanks and you sound better considering the circumstances. I too have the same concerns as SC. WH can swear up and down that he won't keep the children but what legal assurance do you have that he will HAVE to return them. After that threatening phone call, I wouldn't trust him no matter how he claims he would never do this or that to his children. Where do your inlaws live?

Tully,

So good to hear you are doing ok. I'm sure getting into your own place will feel empowering for you. I completely agree with Sugar and BR. Do NOT let WH have the children in France unless you have a signed legal agreement that clearly states that that you are the custodial parent and their residence is in Ireland with you at this time.

How is the launching of the scone empire?

Mindshare

I'm so proud of you! A day late and a dollar short as usual, but I agree completely with all of the above.