I see how important it is for you to learn to ride in large groups, with dangerous cars rushing past, real fears about you being harmed and doing harm...like on this thread.

Seems to me to be about healthy boundary enforcements after years of really unhealthy ones. Figuring out which ones, and if you're lying to yourself or not. And no, you don't have to figure that out.

You can choose not to...

Just like saying someone doesn't matter because they are a stranger, and missing the point that you took their opinion to heart, you took it in and it hit your buttons...and you aren't looking at your own hands, your part.

No power in that. Gonna feel powerless...like with your xW...and saying to me, "I'm not questioning her whys" and then re-read even what happened with your mother, her handing you yet another "why"...and it fit, and you did what was in your code all along...you called xW and reaffirmed you wanted to work this out. And you both worked it out.

Apparently the whys you fill in determine your actions. And you no longer see the pain, frustration, fear and anger in that anymore.

I wonder how you'll handle all of her consequences to her choices, coming for years and years.

May you get all you want out of the accomplishment of your goal.

LA

All I can say about your reply to your XW... is ...

What is your GOAL? If it is to ease your interactions and thereby ease your life, then your choice of how you responded probably didn't further that goal. If it was to jab a little and keep the heat turned up, then you did quite well.

I have learned to ignore most of those jabs from my ex, because everything I do with her is related to my goal. Minimize interaction as much as possible and provide the most stable environment for my boys that the situation will allow. Sometimes it requires deleting a fire and brimstone email reply. But all in all, it brings me closer to my goal.

LA - I try to have a really pragmatic take on all of this. From the very beginning, this has been about my improvement. As soon as she decided to leave, and I learned about self-care and owning your own "stuff", I had a catharsis.

I set goals in my life. I check them and double check them to make sure that they don't unreasonably hinder others. The boundary for that w/re to my XW, is the legal framework established in our divorce decree. My obligations to her begin and end there.

The obligations to the well-being of my children are boundless. Despite the specious allegations by some myopic members of this board that me being allowed to have a personal life equates somehow to child neglect (yes, that was hyperbole - I reserve the right to a little literary license), I know that their needs will ALWAYS be met.

Likewise to be told that I've somehow stolen time from others by starting this thread, simply because I don't see any obligation to take or agree with the advice given here. I never put a gun to anyone's head. I never chained anyone to their keyboard and said, "Type!". To put that on me suggests a wholesale ignorance of what personal choice means. I have no patience for it. Especially not when it comes at me from several directions. Did I feel attacked by some? You bet! Lizard brains says.... FIGHT!

FTR, I didn't say that someone doesn't matter because they're a stranger. I was saying that it takes a lot of gall for a stranger, whose only familiarity with me and my situation comes from this place, to attack me as a failing parent, while they sit comfortably and anonymously behind a keyboard some distance away.

And I normally don't care about the XW's "whys". I've made it a point NOT to know them or try and understand them. I couldn't do it while we were married. I'm not going to be any better at it now that we're D'd and living apart.

It was my mother who was supplying the "why". I don't permit myself to get sucked into that part of it. I reacted to the facts of what she related. That the XW sat alone on Christmas Day, in her car, eating a Sonic burger, and crying over missing her kids.

I felt empathetic to that emotion. I'd been there, I'd done that. But that's where it stops for me. Whether or not that experience led her to irrationally deny me a request is irrelevant and pointless to speculate on.

I focus on the "What is" and not on the "Maybe because". The first is tangible and real. The second is prejudicial garbage that is usually, simply wrong.

EDIT to add: Okay LA, I think I see now where you might see my desire to apply her "why". Are you referring to my original request for opinions on the email she sent? If she was using it to gig me for laying down my conditions for helping her?

In that respect, yes, I was seeking ideas on her motivations. I understand that my own opinions and analysis are clouded by my experiences with her. I strive not to let that happen, but I am aware that I can make mistakes. At least I try to recognize when those pitfalls approach and I seek other ideas.

But please understand, I wasn't necessarily trying to understand her "why" for my personal benefit. I was trying to determine if her concern regarding my son's remarks are legit or should they be tossed aside as petulant blather. I think there's a difference. I don't want to ignore warning signs, and I don't want to react to implications of poor parenting just because she's mad at me.

You and I disagree on the efficacy of memorization through repetition. That's how I learned my multiplication tables 1-12. I don't think that I was debased in the process. Not all learning is conceptual.

CFIO - What are you referring to specifically? My thread was derailed from an understanding of her email about "the slave" reference, to whether or not seeking quid pro quo from her is a reasonable boundary.

My goal, is to avoid feeling taken advantage of anymore. To feel secure knowing that the XW and I give and take on a level playing field. For me, that means not giving anything else away, unless she has something to bring to the table.

I was simply referring to the verbage in this initial reply. I completely understand where you are coming from on being taken advantage concerning time changes. It has only been over the last year (out of 6 or so now) that I have really been able to stand up and say no.

But let me give you my thoughts about how, simply in an effort to turn down the heat, but not loose the jest, you might have reworded your reply.


I would read this as a MORE forceful defense of your requests, without the implied degredation of her position. And... remember, the children are her's as well. When you say that your (her) children 'GRIPE'... that is a demeaning term, and will immediately put her on the defensive.

When this sort of thing occurs with my XW, I simply acknowledge her concern, but say NOTHING about whether I agree or disagree with it. You probably wouldn't want your children to know that you feel they 'gripe'... at least I wouldn't even though sometimes I do.

Seabird,

One never knows the intention of an Ex. My DS17's father and I have been divorced for almost 14 years. He still pulls this stuff. Every time he is nice, I put my guard up because I know he's up to something.

My advice? Respond with a 'Thank you for letting me know' and save all e-mails.

As far as the kids go, the fighting over time, whether gained or lost, needs to stop. They will figure out what is happening. Young children are more aware than we give them credit for. Mommy and Daddy fighting because they don't want me on this day? They'll know, and it will destroy them.

Being taken advantage of? Whether you like it or not, your children ARE your personal life. My EH almost destroyed his relationship with our DS17 for doing the same things that you are describing here.

I'm not judging. Just pointing out-from personal experience.

Okay, I take your point. Your response would have been a lot more... Diplomatic. And it would have carried the same impact.

As I said in the title, I was annoyed and I let that emotion seep through into my response to her.

That said, the word "gripe" isn't as much of a problem in my household. My kids and I are pretty frank with each other. Words have as much or as little emotional impact as both the sender and receiver apply to them.

Synonymous terms also heard under my roof are: "belly-aching", "kvetching", "whining", and "fussing".

When I say it, their response is a little smile and then going about their business. It's most often heard during claims of false emotional and physical pain, or to tattle on others. It lets them know that, no, I'm not always going to take their complaints seriously.

Guys - I appreciate the replies - mostly.

But ENOUGH with the lectures about my personal life and my kids. I won't listen to it anymore and I won't respond. This is my last word on it. Period.

I know what it is to be on the other end of living just for your kids. My mother did it. I had a tremendous amount of guilt as a child over it. I felt like a noose around her neck, holding her back and keeping her from doing a lot of things. To this day, I wished she'd have been just a little more selfish.

What's more, one of my siblings was so spoiled by it, that even as a grown woman with three children of her own, she still expected our mom to live for her.

You guys can prioritize your families however you like. Save your opinions on mine and how I should operate. They are not welcome here.

EOM.

Heh. I think you and I have different definitions of "last word." I count 122 words after those last words.

Heh.

And don't leave out...nana nana poo poo...



Seabird, you remind me of myself about 6 or 9 months ago, when I reached a plateau of learning here, and was clinging to the edge of my safety net by a couple of fingers. I steadfastly refused to acknowledge that the 10 or 20 posters who were flinging the 2x4s at my fingers might be saying something of value. Because if I did, I would have to stop and reevaluate myself and my belief system, my justifications, my payoffs.

Boy how I didn't want to do that. I could have walked away from that discussion, but I hung in there. And spent about 4 days crying, I might add (silly woman thing).

When the wounds had healed a little, and I'd had time to think clearly and without defensiveness, I finally got it. I saw what they were all seeing in my posts. I didn't want to see it, cos it meant I had even more work to do. But there it was, in living color.

No one is taking your wife's side here, btw. No one is saying you don't have a darn good reason to be po'd at her, either. She sounds like a selfish witch.

They are taking your kids' sides, I think. Not for this individual incident. Not for determining if you're Father of the Year. But for the lifelong effect you are going to have on your kids based on the choices you make while they are children.

If you asked my D18 what the one rule in life is, she will tell you without hesitation: Take the high road. Through all our turmoils - and we've had some doozies - I have steadfastly repeated 'take the high road'.

What does that mean? IMO, it means not having to be right. Not having to be better. Not having to show up a POS person for who they are - they'll do that just fine on their own. Not having to be seen as a great person - that'll shine through just fine, too.

It's kind of an evening out process, I think. Some days things will go your way. You will shine. You'll be admired. You'll get good things sent your way. You'll feel good.

Other days, you'll bite your tongue and accept the thorns with the roses. Other kids will call you names in school, and you'll walk on by. You'll want to tape your ex-wife's mouth up, but you don't. Your boss will praise your coworker for the work YOU did.

These things happen. What matters as these things happen is how you handle them. In your case, what matters is how your kids see you handle them. You're set now; you're you (unless you choose to improve yourself, lol). But your kids are soaking up every tiny little flicker of emotion and action that both of their parents exhibit. Especially in a broken home, where insecurity is the word of the day. Will they see a father who reacts with indignity at their mother's mistakes, or will they see a father who reacts with dignity?

Which one do you want them to learn?

Sure, your wife kind of sucks. But that's why you're not with her any more. So get over it. Your indignation won't change her. It won't make you happier, only more distressed. But it will set a tone for your kids, whether you think they 'know' or not. Because to a child under, say, 15, nearly his entire world is his home(s). EVERYTHING that goes on there is of utmost importance, because his very livelihood, safety, happiness, security, even treats, all depend on what goes on there.

Parents still battling? Still tense? Still making teensy weensy snide remarks about each other? Dad gripping the steering wheel a little too tightly as he drives you to your mom's or a babysitter's or some other place to be taken care of, even though he smiles and says nothing is wrong? - kids know this.

So I'm just asking you to consider the 2x4s for what they really are - people seeing you at your precipice and deciding we want to help you make the leap to the next level of understanding.

Do with it what you will. But I hope you make the right choice for your kids' sakes.

Last word as in last post on the matter. Figure of speech. Did you really take the time to count the actual words? And by matter, I mean the lectures on whether or not I'm allowed to have a life.

cat - I appreciate the advice. Despite the discourse that went on here, I understand where you're coming from and I agree. This is a continuous process; not one that happens overnight.

She's still going to get on my nerves and p me off. I'm still going to react. Sometimes viscerally. As time has passed, those moments have become fewer and fewer. My reactions less severe. My post history is open for all to see. Go look at how frequently I come here to gripe about the XW these days. It's far more rare than it was a year ago.

Frankly, I think so many posters here fail to see the forest through the trees and recognize the appropriate context of each individual situation. Not just in my thread but several others. Too much applying their own history and hurt and it's not always appropriate.

When was the last time I had a multi-page thread regarding a conflict with my XW? This is a single incident in several months and it generates a total freak-fest. "OMG Seabird, please won't you think of the chir'en!!!". It's not that I've plateaued. I still have work to do. I 'spect I always will. Don't think the work will ever end.

But c'mon now... We're not talking about a chronic situation that's getting worse and worse. If you could see the entire dynamic like a line graph, you'd see it trending upward at a pretty steady pace. Sometimes there are blips. I think even the XW would agree that we're getting along better today than we were.

The kids are going to ascertain that their mom and I disagree at times? Well, they noticed that we are divorced, so I doubt there's much of a shocker there. I don't think it's realistic or even healthy to shield them from the fact that their mother and I don't often see eye to eye.

At the end of the day, despite her behaviors and my reactions, the kids needs always get met. It's not always pretty. It's not always gonna be pretty. Compared to most situations I hear and read about, I think we're managing pretty well. I don't think it's realistic to shield them from every bit of conflict. If anything, it's an opportunity to learn how to: 1) maintain and enforce boundaries, and 2) negotiate solutions.

I think that bending over and grabbing my ankles every time the XW gets bitten by the entitlement bug sends the wrong message.

This was the very issue I was asking you to look at...that you were in conflict from misplaced boundaries...putting yours around her...and then crossing your own.

Your posts on this thread, more than I've seen before, show how powerfully sarcastic, rude, cruel you can be. Good to know you have it in you. And how you make it about someone else, disown what is solely your choice, old patterns coming back.

And the overlap...a dual-issued thread...titled for an email about your son and more about her original choice to break her promise to watch the kids when you needed her to do so.

Separate issues...not separated. No one can ever make you grab your ankles...there's still a payoff, a permission in you that likes her making you think/feel/believe/act...she made you do it.

To posters on the net...because of what they said, you verbally abused them...they earned it and deserved it.

Not the Seabird I knew...just know more of him. When the stakes get high enough for you, you permit yourself to do what I believe you did in your marriage. That mocking, caustic, justified sarcasm which puts down and keeps people in their place.

On your thread. Including obscenity.

The end does not justify the means. Every step matters. You act from your code...no one can make you. You know this. And to compare making your son learn your two rules like the multiplication tables still has me perplexed. They are not the same. Unless you truly believe that 1x2 = No gun and the other one.

If forgot.

Dad's rules while at Dad's house...and the law of mathematics.

I remember the one of the rules you said you'd learned...someone can feel like a slave and that doesn't mean you're doing it. Your job is to doublecheck what you did/didn't do.

Bears repeating? Or do you want to do that several times aloud, in front of your sister? To make sure you don't forget it again?

This isn't me saying you're wrong about the issues...it's me saying who are you right now and have you chosen to allow yourself to be bitten by entitlement? Are you crossing your own boundaries (anger just says they are being crossed, not by whom) because you were bent on holding her to them?

After crisis, we tend to slowly go back to our emotional routines, permissions...when the fear lessens, the loss happens anyway, and we are making our new way in the world...old habits sneak in to console, justify, and can consume.

Which is why we find ourselves repeating our mistakes, feeling even more like one, and hearing others calling us one.

Doesn't mean they are.

LA

Putting mine around her? I don't see that.


There's an interesting lesson here about the one-dimensional nature of internet discussion boards I think. It was a point I was trying to make earlier.


I think it's the same method. I am perplexed by the notion that memorization and repeating = "debasement".


When the stakes are that high, you betcha.


You lost me here.


My boundary is not letting her have something from me without her willing to give something in return. She doesn't HAVE to give anything. She can ask for everything. That doesn't mean I have to comply either way.

Again, my boundary: No get without some give. We are not married. She is not entitled to unconditional requests.

There are consequences to her choice to D. I am not acting to punish. But when she chose to be alone, being alone means not being able to count on me to support her when she wants.

LA - I am asking you, pleading really, to step with care. Please believe me that you are not aware of all the circumstances surrounding this issue. I know you say that you aren't making judgments. Just saying it doesn't make it true. I think that you are.

So I'm asking you, with all care and kindness to please leave this alone now.

Please.

I copied and pasted into Word and selected "Word Count." It took maybe 15 seconds. I got mad word processing skillz.

heheh... Fair enough.

seabird, what the h&ll is going on? Why is this affecting you so much that you are forced to plead with anonymous people on line about not pushing your buttons?

What's really going on?

I agree with Cat...Don't let them get you so upset about this. What you've done is right and you are a good dad and you have the best intentions!!

We are all over "set and enforce your healthy boundaries", "self care is important now", except....


Here's a guy who appears to get it, IMO. Our children need only two things: unconditional love and safety. That's it. Well, food and water too, OK. His children are getting what they need which puts him in the top 10% of parents in this country.

At this stage of my life it is clear to me that it is more important to do the right thing than to do things right. Process doesn't matter as much. We will all screw up process from time to time.

When you feel that you were kicked to the curb, the residual feelings of divorce never completely go away no matter how much "work" you do on yourself and move on in a new life. The hole is always present but does shrink over time.

Hang in there Seabird.

Thanks jungian, Rhonda, cat - jungian is right. I see, from my prespective, a great deal of effort and accommodation from my side. It started back during the separation. Me, consistently agreeing to her requests. Not because it was the right thing to do (which was debatable depending on your perspective), but because it was like a Plan A of sorts. Get her to see how good things could be. However the changes and efforts were real. I wanted to develop them into habits so that I wouldn't drop those efforts later on; divorce or no divorce.

However... When the separation went from in-house, to the complete physical two-home kind, I withdrew. I -chose- to stop trying. I couldn't make the effort toward -her- anymore when the only response I got was insults and attacks. When that happened, I started to see her in a different light. With my eyes no longer clouded by my hopes and desires to keep her, I began to see some of her faults a lot more clearly. Her attempts to control me at arm's length. Actions that would still allow her to take a lead role in out broken family. Setting schedules for me with the kids. Dictating the how and when for my time with them. Taking on my parental duty for me at their school.

Withdrawing wasn't enough. She noticed it, got angry, and attacked me for it. Accused me of being a bad father for not being in contact with her on her terms. Tried to make me feel like I was repeated the mistakes of our own D'd parents.

I wasn't. Not by a long-shot. And I began to really see her habit of selfishness and self-entitlement. Something she carried all throughout the M. I used to work a 9/80 schedule at work. Basically, it's 8.5 hr days, over two weeks, and I got every other Friday off; 9/80 = working 80hrs in days.

This infuriated her. She complained bitterly about over the years. To the point that I went to my management several times and asked to move to a traditional schedule. But I provide IT support and they wanted me there during normal business hours. No use being on-site on those Fridays off when no one else is around.

She could never give a reason for her hatred of that schedule except that, in her words, "It's not fair! It's not fair that I have to get up and go to work, while you get to sleep in." When I'd point out that her schedule was something like 8-4 everyday, while mine was 7:30-5:30, she'd just roll her eyes and clam up. Like a spoiled child. I didn't see this at the time. I wanted to make her happy, but I resented her imposing her arbitrary sense of what was fair and what wasn't on me.

That's just one example.

My divorce was tragic, and heart breaking, and... Liberating. I began to see all the good stuff from it too. My new found freedom. No longer having to deal with her busy-body and interfering parents. No longer having to listen to her dictate to me how to be a father.

So when she starts up again with what I see as her entitled behavior and manipulative tactics from beyond the D (like beyond the grave, because she's dead to me), it spins me up like a top. This time especially so because it has to do with something that is really, really, important to me. It really got me going and I needed help to spin back down.

Part of that is trying to separate her legitimate communications with me as a parent, and her attempts to manipulate me again and strike out at me. The email about my son. Am I blowing it as a dad, doing irreparable damage to my son's psyche? That was the purpose of this thread. To explain the background and seek opinions on her statements. Is she for real? Is this something to be worried about?

But instead, I get a majority of responses telling me that I should just forgo my own plans and acquiesce to her. For the sake of the children. Yet... How are the children affected??? They'll still be cared for. It's not like they'll be abandoned.

But that's all most everyone wants to focus on. And I disagree with them. So then I start getting attacked on a personal level. committed states unequivocally that I'm a selfish parent for trying to have some kind of life outside of my kids. If that works for her/him - good. Impose that on me and beat me up for it. Noooooo - I don't think so. Then a brand new member who really has no clue about my history comes in here and states what my intentions and motivations are. The nerve! And now I'm really angry. And it feels like a dogpile.

Normally I have a lot of respect for LA's words. I still do. Except... Stating, as a matter of fact, that having my son memorize a rule with rote memorization is debasing. WHAT??? No explanation, no clarification. It just is.

I felt like a cornered animal. Already a bit frustrated and confused from the XW's recent foray into my head, I come into this board looking for some objective advice, and I get - not what I don't want to hear - but a tangential set of lectures exactly as jungian describes: toss all the big talk about boundary enforcement and self-care, and instead people see their own X's in my posts and swing away.

No one who came after me did with MB principles in mind. It was all arbitrary dictating based on what they'd want from their own Xs or SOs.

So yes. My buttons were pushed. Intentionally or not, that's what it was. And instead of backing off and letting it go, they pressed the issue. I felt like I was being brow-beaten into submission. To do what they, and my XW, ultimately wanted, regardless of how angry and resentful it would make me feel, due in large part to my history with her that no one here knows EVERYTHING about. Not even from the link in my sig.

MB has a lot of valuable information. It offers a lot of help. Not everything here is correct though. And it should be the right of all to take what they need from it, and leave the rest. No one here has the right to impose their will on others. And no one should be surprised that when they try it, they might be in for a fight.

I'm done with this thread.

Locking thread at thread starter's request.