OK, I am dead set against adultery to the extent that it colours my vision. That said, my carpool guy (CPG) told me about his parents (he was seeking legal info) and this story sounds different. His dad is having an A and wants to leave his mother for the OW. His description of what his father says is straight from the wayward manual. Instead of the expected outrage from the family, CPG and his siblings are thinking it's about time. Apparently, mom is difficult and they've watched their father suffer for years. CPG and siblings are in their 40's and have families of their own including grown and nearly grown kids. Parents are in their late 70's/early 80's.

My initial reaction was shock that the kids of all people could take this stance. I have been reflecting for some time now and I've had a few thoughts about it, but I'd like some input here.

On the one hand are the MB principals - where the BS contributes to problems within the marriage, but the WS is soley responsible for the A. Clearly, mom - the BS - was difficult enough that even her children saw it. I can understand this. My own mom is an attention-seeking, narcissistic, control freak herself and I often wondered how my father stayed married to her. However, the thought of him cheating on her was ludicrous. He passed away 15 years ago and it never happened, so I can't really compare personal experience - except to say that my mother was (and still is) a truly difficult person to live with to the point that her own children - myself and my brother - would easily sympathize with anyone who chose NOT to live with her.

But would we empathize with an adulterer?

What if it had never happened to me and I didn't fully understand the pain?

As it is, CPG and siblings' biggest concern now is what if mom wants to come live with one of them. (I understand this too but it seems a very sad reaction to something as horrific as adultery)

So what do you think? Are some people so aweful that adultery is the lesser of the 2 evils? Is this possible? I just can't get my head around this.

(note: I do love my mom but she is what she is - I don't want to give a false impression with that)

I can't either. IF she is REALLY that bad, why didn't "DAD" leave her years ago?? Why wait until you're 75/80 to decide that you've had enough?

Perhaps he did not realise how bad it really was until something better came along. Love and fondness for a spouse can really blind us to what some others would see as plainly obvious character flaws.

Some people are truly awful to live with/be married to (sorry for the double grammatical error there). My cousin is a prime example. I'm surprised her husband lasted as long as he did. I don't blame him for wanting out of the marriage. I do blame him for having an affair. He contacted me a few months ago and I told him directly that even though I totally sympathized with how difficult my cousin could be, what he did s*cked even worse. He should have "manned up" and divorced her before playing the field.

Same with CPGs parents. In my own opinion!

My opinion? It's no excuse...

Let me quote something Mark1952 once posted...

"There really are no viable reasons that excuse an affair. If a marriage is bad enough to abandon, then it should be abandoned. If it needs to be fixed, then it should be fixed. Going outside the marriage to get your own ENs met is NOT a viable reason to inflict that kind of pain on someone else."

Wise words.

If he were that miserable, there should have been a D long ago.

I think its easy said then done to say just 'man up' and D your S before an A. At a basic level I don't anybody really wants to be alone. And if you get a D 1st then you are alone. And could be potentially for a long time. So people pick the lesser of the 2 evils - being alone or being with maybe not the greatest S in the world. But now if you throw in AP - well then that makes leaving a whole lot easier.

By no means am I advocating having an A, but I think the above has a lot do with why people just don't get a D from a 'bad' S 1st but rather wait until they have 'backup' plan with AP.

It's a black and white moral issue...Just because this particular WS's rationalizations and justifications sound more palatable to SOME, does NOT change the fact that adultery is ALWAYS WRONG. Truth does not change based upon circumstances - truth is absolute.

As Dr. Harley says, "There are always reasons, but NEVER any excuses".

Mrs. W

I can certaily see what you guys mean and I do agree - why didn't he just leave her years ago? It's not even like he waited for the kids to move out - they've been out for decades. And it seems especially cruel since she is approaching a time in her life when she will likely need care soon. He - the dad (WS) - is behaving like a typical wayward. This is clear.

What makes less sense to me is the reaction of CPG and his siblings. Granted, it's never happened to him and I'll be the first to admit I didn't give much thought to adultery until it happened to me.

The story of the cousin reminded me of my great aunt. She died when I was young so most of this info is second hand but apparently she was the black sheep of the family. Either she or they, her 8 brothers and sisters, cut the other off. At the time of her death, the only relative she retained contact with was my father - her nephew. We were the only attendants at her funeral and what to do with her ashes became our problem. Her only wishes were that she didn't want to be buried next to her husband. She had declared her hatred of him 5 or 10 years before he died - didn't visit him in the hospital or nursing home and refused contact with his family. From all of this, chances are she was a miserable person herself. But she and her husband never divorced. He didn't actually leave her per se - he went to a nursing home. If there was any adultery, I never heard about it (and my above-mentioned mother would have been thrilled to pass on that juicy tidbit so I really don't think there was). But it was likely an unhappy marriage that lasted in spite of it. Now I have no idea how miserable either party was, but they did seem to take the high road. They were of a generation where divorce was not an option anyway - even if it was attainable by this time I doubt either would have considered it. My aunt kept the "til death do us part" vow and then just made sure they were parted afterwards by not being buried next to him.

Agree!!!!!

Actually it is not always wrong. It is only wrong to us who have the morals do believe it to be wrong. Watch TV and see how romanticized it is today. Read the newspaper to see which celebrity just blew up the marriage with an A.

To those of us that it is black and white issue, adultery is ALWAYS WRONG. However, our world has come to be one where self-interest is all that matters...adultery is OK if you are not happy. I hardly watch TV anymore b/c I cannot think of one show that adultery is not spun in a good light. Even my favorite show My Name is Earl stinks of it.

Morals are internal beliefs and therefore we have to first believe it is wrong for it to be so. Too many today do not believe it is wrong. Only it is wrong if you get caught!

I disagree...Moral absolutes are, just that, ABSOLUTE...Truth isn't subject to agreement...Truth simply is...I do realize that truth is very inconvenient for a lot of people, but that still doesn't change it...

Mrs. W

I saw a quote somewhere that said something like "Everyone one thinks their sins are complicated and unique, they are not. Their sins are petty and repetitive."

That is what I think about with these hypotheticals and circumstance. Dig deep into these stories and they appear to have complicated and unique twists that required difficult choices. But in the end, its just a husband cheating on his wife.

I don't mean to sound insensitive but I don't feel people should be respected more just because they 'stuck' it out with a bad S. Or stay M 'despite' their S. In some ways I think that's the easy way out. Fear of the unknown. Not standing up for themselves, etc. Sometimes I think this drives people to stay in bad M more then being the 'bigger' person. As a BS I would be lying if I didn't at least consider some of those reasons as to why I didn't immediately leave when I found out about the A.

U_D, I agree, 100%. You'll get no argument from me on a WSs need to have that backup plan, and to avoid being alone. I guess I see it as more selfishness on their part.

I don't mean to seem insensitive about that, but you see, I was my WWs backup plan. I had told her that it would have been easier for me if she had just divorced me before the A. She told me that she couldn't have done that because she knew that her and OM weren't compatible in the long run, and she didn't want to end up all alone. Nice...

Dont want to threadjack but I can sympathize with you on that one. My WW was making the OM to promise to never leave her. I asked her why she would say such a thing. Her answer was that even though she didn't think they were compatible that if I left her bc of the A she didn't want to be completely alone. Keep in mind my WW has never been on her own - so I have no doubt she meant it.

And I also asked her why she didn't just D me - she said it never entered her mind. She never wanted it. Strange beings WW.

Affairs are WRONG no matter how prevalent they are they are plain WRONG.

If you are so unhappy or the spouse is such a horrible person or whatever the reason, leave FIRST!!!!!!

Yes, no and maybe. First off, I don't truly know if my aunt, uncle or both were unhappy or miserable - that's just conjecture on my part based on the events that I know. But certainly back in the day, nobody divorced and it was actually a disgrace to divorce. Instead, one took more care in choosing a marriage partner. Society is much different now. Someone mentioned the instant self gratification (not quite the same words) but perhaps it's true - we get married too quickly, make bad choices but it's ok because you can just cheat and leave to be with someone else.

I often feel as if I'm completely naive to the ways of the world because my mind just doesn't work that way.

I've recently had reason to see that some morals are not seen as the same by everyone. For example, many people, including me, see sex between consenting adults as fine and others see it as immoral. So for me it is not the sex part of the affair that is immoral, it is the lying. It is tantamount to fraud, the cheating spouse is getting some benefits from the loyal spouse (I prefer to define the spouse by their own behavior), by lying and committing a fraud on them. No society or culture can survive if fraud and violence are permitted, free and honest exchange is the only real basis for a society, family ,partnership, ...

So, in that context conducting a secret extramarital affair is always wrong. You are stealing from your spouse through fraud.

I kinda know what you're saying. My mother was mentally ill and I'm telling you I've often said she would make a preacher want to pop her upside the head. I think many times the spouse of the mentally ill person is just so beat down and downright afraid of doing anything. My mother could be so cruel and manipulative- as well as dangerous- she tried to kill me once. Especially for someone who is married to a borderline I can see how the person married to that person might intentionally seek someone else if nothing else but for kindness.

Affairs are still wrong, not saying they are right, but I wonder how someone stays with someone like that.

I have an friend who has been married to someone like my mother for over 15 years. She is mentally and emotionally abusive. Everyone has encouraged him to leave her- she rejects him sexually at every turn, screams at him like a banshee and does things like tell him he doesn't make enough money for her (despite the fact he makes a great living). He's waiting until his youngest graduates high school before he leaves because he's afraid she will take out her anger on the daughter. Basically he's stuck being unhappy for at least six more years. This guys has done everything- counseling, books, courses and has exhibited the most Christian love towards this woman that I've ever seen. He has admitted in the past that he's felt weak around women who treat him nicely and I get that but he's continued to be faithful.

It's amazing to me that he's been able to do it really. Yes, if he cheated it would be wrong but it's also so unfair to think that he has six more years before he can safely leave. And yes, I've posed the argument that the child would be better off with him having custody and him living on his own with the child but I think he's literally afraid of her. Unless you've lived with someone like this (and I have) it's hard to imagine a grown man being afraid of asking such a horrible creature for a divorce.

My grandmother got divorced even back in the day (she got divorced during WWII).

I think people go into marriage too much with the attitude that hey if it doesn't work out we can always get divorced. I don't think that is how you should enter a marriage.