6YL,

I am an atheist

And you expect people to behave morally based on what principle? Common law, the constitution, common sense, niceness, secular values or nilhism? Of course there are going to be many Christians here, they believe in the sanctity of marriage, forgiveness and salvation.

What is it that secular people believe in? Lately it seems like aesthetics fills the void of meaning for them.

I think persons like yourself enjoy Judeo/Christian morals through your upbringing but have lost the element of faith.

I can't judge the body of Christians here any more by their infidelity any more than I can judge Jews by Bernard Madoff.

NJ

Thanks Pariah! I'm sure my soft spot for you has to do with your animals. I have a horse and 3 cats!

Stepping into the lions den here...

Actually, my admitting that I'm a Christian here is to help illustrate how deep I feel the dispicable-ness of my actions is. My cheating is affecting me spiritually as well as physically and emotionally. I don't in any way think that I "should" be granted forgiveness by anyone. If you've read my thread, in fact, you'll see I'm struggling big time because I can't find my way to forgiveness, though I believe I need it for sake of recovery. (Even my non-theological IC tells me this.) So no. My Christianity is by NO means a crutch for me. To ME it makes what I did even more dirty and more reprehensible because I broke my word to my H and to my Lord -- when the rules are clear. You don't lie. And adultery is among the ultimate of lies.

L4,

You know I read your thread, and that I see you as one of the rare exceptions in the WW world. Sorry I polluted your thread a little before I made my own.

NJ,

I already said that I base my morality on freedom and liberty. Basically - no force, no lies.

Not at all. I want you on my thread. And anyone else is welcome. I enjoyed the conversation and was breathing just fine. But it's probably good you two decided to take it outside.

I look forward to seeing how this thread here goes.

Yep.

Sorry, speaking for myself here. I've seen and experienced too much of what Pariah describes to believe in any group of people who profess to have faith in something greater. It's sad, because I really treasure the teachings of Jesus - AND I believe they hold the key to being a truly good, moral person. I have yet to see a religious body, or any other type of group populated by humans, abide from them. Agnostic I remain.

6YL,

And these principles derive from what, the Constitution as a religion? I guess I'll buy that although it is still submission to a higher power of sorts.

Would you rather have a born again or an atheist nurse if you were laying flat on your back? Don't dodge by saying a competent one.

NJ

NJ,

OK no dodging, atheist .

NJ,

On the side point. It is not the submission to a higher power that I object to. It is that I do not believe that the higher power exists.

Look millions of people believe in many many gods, you believe in one. I believe in one less than you.

I have thought carefully about what makes for a society that works. I think that individual freedom constrained against fraud and force works the best and produces the most happy people, so that is my morality.

Tabby,

I agree with you that the bible, torah and many other religious works contain wisdom. I just do not believe the supernatural aspects of any of them.

I have joke for you

"What do you call a wimpy atheist?"

Agnostic.

I'm sure you've heard it before but I rarely meet an admitted agnostic, so I wanted to share.

I HAVE been there.

My surgeon told me that luck didn't keep my from bleeding slap to death. My prognosis went from bleeding to death, to losing my leg, to never walking again to miraculous recovery. The bullet made what he considered an impossible trajectory through the tangle of arteries. However I did lose enough blood before getting to the hospital to have some brain injury. I lost some short term memory ability and thoughts get locked in my head and I can't speak them. This was caused by my XW delaying me by trying to insist she could drive me instead of sending me by helicopter to the hospital. They had to force me conscious to sign the transport permission since she was refusing me transport.

His outlook definitely changed, he actually told me watching me recover convinced him God was really there and he had seen so much senseless death and disease.

If entry into heaven has to be earned, it will be an empty and lonely place.

Forgiveness in a Christian sense is not a forgetting of the offense. It is actually an accounting term that refers to the cancellation of a debt. But unlike bankruptcy which removes the right of a creditor to collect the debt while allowing the debt to stand, Christian forgiveness implies the removal of the debt from the books because it was paid off by someone else.

Romans 3:23 says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Forgiveness by God is not earned by deeds nor maintained by rule keeping but is the result acceptance of God's own payment on our behalf.

The principle of forgiving others as God has forgiven us is based on the fact that we did nothing to merit forgiveness and yet God is willing to forgive us. We too then are to emulate what God has done for us and accept as payment for the debt the payment made by Christ as payment in full, not only for our own sins, but for the sins against us by others as well.

If you let someone borrow 20 bucks and they can't repay it because of whatever circumstances they find themselves in, you might be willing to forgive them the debt. But suppose that you later saw them beating someone up that owed them 5 dollars, or 50 or even 100. It would make you feel that you had wrongly forgiven their debt and you would be less likely to forgive them any future debts and probably cause you to never lend them any money ever again as well.

When God forgives us, He tells us that we are to extend that forgiveness to others as well, since we did not earn it from him in the first place, since we did not make the required payment and our debt was expunged solely based on His application of His own account to ours and so we have no right to demand payment from others.

Being a Christian isn't about following rules. It's about being paid for...

David was forgiven by God. But it didn't prevent the consequences of David's sin from plaguing him for the rest of his life.

It's easy to say that someone didn't get what they deserved. By God's standards, who deserves anything good?

Mark

I'm not commenting on this because the point of this thread was not for me to convert people to atheism.

Mark,

I'm not getting the point of your post? Is it meant to challenge NJ idea that our morality flows from religion? Or is it meant to shed some light on my original question? If the latter then I am totally missing what you are telling me>

6YL,

I agree with you on that point more or less, as I would ascribe in one way or another our current financial mess to wholesale dishonesty. Could just be a cyclical event, but if I had a computer model and could simulate the economy my guess is it would run better without dishonesty. Now if I could only define it.

Are you a unitarian? Alfred North Whitehead said a "unitarian believes in as many as one god" Quakers too I think.

NJ

Yes - our unforgiveness nullify's Christ's forgiveness for us.

NJ,

No religion for me. Just don't believe any of them, but I do like the stories.

Well, I'll just meet her in hell then.

Can't be any worse than being married to her here.

BigK,

It would seem that there will be no one who has not forgiven everything that was ever done to them, if I'm reading the rule right.