Is contact w/ Irish embassy appropriate? If girls have dual citizenship and were under your care and you have filed for custody, could they be of assistance?

Uggghhhh...my heart hurts for you tully. So sorry you are living this nightmare.

Has WH applied for the return of the children?

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.pdf&cid=24

Article 13 states that a consideration to not having the children returned is if "there is a grave risk that his or her return would expose the child to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in an intolerable situation."

I don't know if it's too little too late since the children are already in France or if it's premature if WH hasn't made an official application, but if you haven't already, I'd start documenting any and all of WH's "negative" behavior since the birth of the children (not just the A period) that could possibly be seen as psychologically harmful or negligent to the children. The A already shows lying and deceit and he has admitted to striking you. Association with this nutso militant group may not bode well if a bad reputation is the general consensus in the legal arena.

In divorce proceedings there, can you subpeona witnesses like here in the States? Could OW and MIL be called? What's left of WH's brain might explode at the prospect of having OW and his mother questioned by your attorney. Has WH enrolled the children in school? If he hasn't, I would not enroll them.

Whatever you can do to legally remove your ahole PILs from the house, do so. Personally I would not wait to confront POS inlaws until tomorrow unless your solicitor advises otherwise or unless you feel too out of control angry. I'd take a friend or two (for witnesses) and ask them to leave. If they refuse, don't agrue. If they tell you to leave, don't...it's your house. Just being there will likely piss off MIL royally. Let her spew whatever garbage your way. She might have a big enough mouth to say too much. Having the inlaws there could turn out to your advantage, if MIL becomes unstable and her behavior can be used against your WH.

At the very least I'd speak to the oldest two and try and find out what WH and his POS parents have been telling them as well as reassure them that you have not abandoned them. No matter what, remain calm so not to give WH any ammo against you.

You are a smart lady tully. Keep your wits about you. WH and inlaws have under estimated your strength before. Put your mamma [censored] kicking boots on. Smile and be civil if need be but also get prepared to bring the hammer down hard.

Extra prayers to you tully. I pray you have some good news soon.

Seriously I have been so angry after reading what's happened I actually sat down and started to look up flights to france.....when I realized how big france is and that I didn't really know where I would be going I stopped looking........but for me to look up those flights (not a europe person) I have been continuously p!$$ed.

I agree. Given the militant nuts WH is associated with now, they could up and leave. I don't mean to scare you, but WH is not thinking at all and POS inlaws are willing to help. Maybe you could sleep on the couch. It may not be the ideal, but I wouldn't let the girls out of my sight.

Go to an electronics store or a spy shop and buy a digital voice recorder. You need proof that you kept your cool so that PIL's cannot say you were violent or threatened them etc. You can be sure that they will lie for their son to help him with his "mission".

I agree - once the children are in your sight, keep them there. If possible, buy a GPS unit for each child that can be placed on them and they can be tracked by you if required. Your WH is going to play nasty and dirty and you can be sure that he will not give them back to you with an apology.

Be safe and stay in control and calm. You can do this!!!

Not much else to say, but wanted you to know I'm here and praying for you.

Dear Tully, it was to be expected something was going to happen but my stomach turned when I read this. I am so very sorry. It feels so terribly unfair and unjust. You moved to your husband's home country where he can pursue his career in a carefree way while you are a SAHM. You are faithful and honest while he cheats and lies. When he is exposed, you and the children are the ones suffering the most. It is so incredibly unfair. I really hope that you will find some justice and that the judge will grant you full custody and allow you to live in Ireland.

In the meantime, it is best to follow all the advice of your legal counsel. I think that your solicitor gave you good advice to stay in the house and take care of the kids until the courts decide on custody. This way, you cannot be accused of abandoning the family.

What you have to do now is extremely hard but remember that your lovely daughters are a witness to everything that is happening. They will see your love, courage, dignity and perseverance. They are confused and caught between you and your WH but one day, they will realize how you have fought for them and sacrificed yourself and they will always be grateful for this. With regard to your WH, they will understand later that he has caused all this and not you. He will loose their respect, not you.

I am sure your solicitor told you but do not leave France with the kids now. Most likely, your husband has already put measures in place to prevent this and you may be stopped at the border. Trying to take them to Ireland again would probably greatly jeopardize your situation at a later custody hearing (and be considered abduction).

I also have the following concern. Your WH now has expert legal advice from a group of fathers and lawyers with experience in international custody matters. Your own solicitor is probably a good local lawyer and it is important that you have a good relationship with her. However, I wonder whether she has dealt with these type of international legal issues before. If not, and in view of the fact that you are up to experienced adversaries now, have you considered a second opinion from another solicitor with broader international experience? Also, I was wondering whether you had checked with an Irish lawyer whether anything can be done form an Irish point of view?

I was thinking, regarding your in-laws (you may not be up to it, but if you possibly can) it might perhaps be a good idea to try to get some support from MIL. She is now only seeing her side which is that you have taken her grandchildren away from her. However, she is also a woman and may understand how painful it is to be betrayed and tossed aside for a young home wrecker. Perhaps, if she sees your pain, grief and hurt, rather than your anger she may soften a bit? Just a thought. She may be a doormat but you never know, people can always surprise you. If she understands your position better, she might be able to help you somehow?

Many posters wonder how your WH husband got the kids out of Ireland into France. I am wondering too but I could see at least two ways: he got EU identity cards for them and used them for the travel or he declared at the police station that child's passports were lost or stolen and applied for new ones.

Take care. Justice and fairness is what I wish for you and your children!!! If I can help you research anything online (in French is ok), please let me know.

Hello all. I am in a nightmare situation.

It's after 4am here and I can't sleep so I may as well fill you in.
First of all, I didn't have passports for the girls, I have French national identity cards which are sufficient for the girls to travel within Europe. There is no national identity card system in Ireland so a passport is necessary for Irish citizens but not for French citizens. I still have them so I can only assume that WH got new ones issues possibly by declaring the old ones lost or stolen - I don't know, I'm guessing.

I still cannot get in touch directly with my solicitor. Her office voicemail says she will be back in the office on Wednesday but I can't wait. She has not replied to my recent emails. I didn't contact WH's ex-solicitor because my sister advised me not to but I think I will today if I don't manage to get in touch with my own.



This is the reply I got back from WH late yesterday afternoon so I decided that there was no point in waiting for the next day to go to my house since the PIL were not leaving. I arrived in the house around 7.30pm accompanied by my sister. They were all sitting around the table. The girls were delighted to see me and after lots of hugs and kisses and questions about whether I had brought Ruby (DD11's new dog for Christmas) I calmly asked PIL how long they intended to stay. They both got very angry and aggressive with me. PIL said '2, 3 weeks who knows? maybe longer. As long as we like.' MIL said 'how dare you ask us to leave, after the journey to get here' I hadn't asked her to leave directly but I said 'but this is my home' She got very angry, shouted at me, threw her spoon on the table and said 'this is WH's home too and we'll stay here as long as we like'. Much angry words and attempts on the part of WH to calm her down. I had at this stage turned away and said 'fine then, at least now I know'

I then played some Youtube songs and joked with the twins and DD4 scrambling on my knees. DD11 was upset and was upstairs talking to WH. When she came down I could see she had been crying. She asked me why I had asked PIL to leave, could I not be nice to them. Difficult situation but later we had a more private conversation where I told her that it was because they were not kind to me even though I could see that they were kind to her and her sisters. Apart from this, the younger girls seemed quite happy to think that their family is reunited again. DD11 wants to believe this too but knows there's something more going on.

I dealt with putting the girls to bed along with WH and read each one of them a story. After that I rang a close neighbour and asked if I could call over for a coffee. I went for a couple of hours along with my sister. When I got back to the house everyone was in bed and MIL had set the table for breakfast in the morning with 7 places so obviously excluding me and my sister.

I have spent ages debating strategy with my sister but I'm not sure what the best approach is. This is an absolute nightmare, I cannot live properly in my own home. My sister and I had to sleep on the sofa bed in the sitting room while WH is sleeping in our room with DD4 and PIL are sleeping in DD8's double bed who has been moved out. I have no idea how long this will go on but sister has to leave on Thursday morning early and it wasn't easy already for her to get away. Another sister is planning on coming on Friday until Sunday but as you can imagine this cannot go on for long.

I am so afraid now that the judge will make the intermediate decision to leave the girls here in France until final divorce proceedings which my solicitor said could be delayed by the sale of the house. I suspect that WH will try to delay things as much as possible now. I'll let you know when I get more info from my solicitor.

My stomach is in a knot and I can't sleep with worry.

Tully-

I am so glad that your sisters are there for you. I am sure you are in a nightmare, but as they say, it is always darkest right before dawn. I have experienced a nightmare very different from yours, but the darkness was deepest before the dawn so I can only encourage you to hang in there and lean on the strength of your sisters.

You are "playing" your cards perfectly. Keep it up. You are in YOUR house with YOUR kids. The PIL have no real "say" although they are an annoyance. Your WH is also forced to "play along" for the sake of the kids and this charade he has created.

I will be praying that you will be able to make it through this, that you and your family will have wisdom in the morass, your solicitor will have a game plan, and that the courts will see through this farce.

(((tully)))

Oh Tully, this must be so hard now for you. Hang in there! We are here for you! You are going through the most difficult moments of you life but in the next few days, your path and direction will become clear.

What a pity that your solicitor cannot be reached now. I don't think your WH solicitor will be able to do anything. It is probably unethical for him to help you.

May I make a suggestion? If I were in your shoes, I would email the lawyer on this website http://www.international-divorce.com/ tell him you saw his interesting website and ask him for his referral solicitors in both France and Ireland and give them a call. It can always help, you never know. The more info, the better.

I wish you strength and courage.

One consulation, Tully -- the OW is probably royally pissed that you are back in France AND back in your home. And WH will probably not want to leave you alone for fear that you will take the girls again. He may stick to you like glue. Use that to your advantage by doing a 180.

Think, Tully. Sit back and think before you act. Be the strong woman we all know you are in front of WH, PIL and your girls.

My advice is to mess with them by acting like NOTHING IS WRONG. Rearrange the table to the way you normally set it. Take back your kitchen. Bake your scones. Do what you would normally do. Don't take a backseat to MIL -- just ignore her like she doesn't exist. She is not the woman of the house -- you are!!

And when WH is at work, go to YOUR bedroom and snoop. Find what you can. Make copies of documents you might need. This is your opportunity to get what you might need for the war.

Invite friends over to your home to disrupt PILs quiet time.

These are just a few suggestions, Tully. Other posters may not think these are appropriate. But Tully, IT IS YOUR HOUSE. Act like it. Don't show weakness in front of WH. Let him wonder at your strength. Act like you have a secret plan in the works. Put him on edge that you are plotting something.

I know this is not a game. Please stay strong and focused. And remember that hundreds of your MB fans are supporting you! Keep posting so we can help.

Hi tully,

You are in my thoughts day and night.

I Googled WH's militant organisation and found the forums. I thought I your H might have posted, but I did not recognise him in any of the stories. However, I did get a view of how the organisation advises people – mainly but not only fathers – to play international situations.

(For anyone else interested in browsing, you have to ask Google to translate from French, which makes for difficult reading! Automatically-translated English is not at all like properly-constructed English!).

They must have advised him that he has equal rights to say where the children live, and just as you had the right to move them to Ireland, he has the right to move them to France, unless a court says otherwise. I saw a few threads about getting duplicates made of ID cards and passports, without actually breaking the law. That must be what he did.

Their line is that the needs of the children are paramount. They didn’t actually say, but implied, that fault and blame for the breakdown of the marriage are irrelevant.

None of the cases I could see resulted from a father’s affair, like yours – indeed many of them resulted from the mother’s. The mother then took the children away, adding insult to injury.

Anyway, my point is that, advised by this group, H’s line of argument might well be that children have always lived in France, that they need continuity and stability, familiar schools and friendship groups and that they should not be disrupted, regardless of the marital breakdown. They are used to living in France and should have their familiar environment maintained. They should not be forced to move anywhere. Custody should be awarded on a 50/50 basis (because that’s what is best for children) but on the grounds that the children stay where they have always lived. If you feel you cannot live there then you are free to leave, but not with them. If you wish to leave the country then H could have the term-time custody and you could have substantial parts of the holidays.

I don’t know that he would even have to show that he could look after them as well as you, their mother; in these days of equality it would be insulting to suggest otherwise.

I think that his whole argrument will be that their needs come first, not his or yours.

I do hope that you can bring this case before a judge soon.

And of COURSE my daddy will be coming. He wouldn't DREAM of not supporting his eldest DD in something so important.

I agree that you should use this time to snoop when possible tully. While none of this is a game you do need to be strategic. Hopefully the POSILs will be gone in a matter of days vs weeks. Until then, try to stay calm and in control. I would not hide any sadness you feel about the situation either. Perhaps MIL seeing what a cad her darling boy is may make her think twice even if she won't admit it.

Has returning to Ireland been brought up? Has WH enrolled the children in school? If you stay in France what happens to your rental? Did you ever move in?

{{{tully}}} I wish there was more we could do for you.

This may seem like a wild idea, but I like it ....

Get YOUR parents into your home ASAP.
If in-laws are there - so are YOUR parents.
Tell everyone (AFTER your parents arrive) that YOUR parents are YOUR guests, and as such they will be using the master suite.

Then, take all their stuff and put it in the master suite.

Simply outnumber "them" in your home.

I LOVE IT!


Tully, just remember God has not abandoned with you. You may feel outnumbered, but truly, you're not.

me too !

In fact , invite anyone you want to support you to come to your France live-in.

I sure wish I could send Mom over there. She'd fix their little red wagon...

Tully, this is so good. Reach as far as you need to for support. You'll have a hard time anyway, but nearly impossible alone. Call any and all willing troops into service.

Hi Tully, how are you doing? I have been thinking about your situation and had a thought about a possible strategy.

First of all, I think that SugarCane has accurately described the arguments WH will probably use in court to request co-parenting. I don't know how French judges tend to decide but most likely, the best interest of the children is their main or only consideration.

Of course, since you have young daughters, the court may well decide that full custody for you with visitation rights for WH is better. But it is unsure what the ultimate outcome will be. Therefore, it would be better if you could come to an agreement with your WH regarding this matter instead of having an outsider decide.

I was wondering, if you were allowed to live in Ireland, would co-parenting be acceptable to you, under the condition that your WH also lives and works in Ireland? I remember you mentioning that he could easily find a good job in Ireland.

You could say to WH: "Listen WH, I want to live in Ireland and you want co-parenting. If we go to court here in France, one of us will loose and we don't know who it will be. If we both move to Ireland and you get co-parenting: it is a win-win for both of us and this is better for the kids because we will be able to be on better terms with each other."

Also, if he agrees to this, you could quickly settle this legally and he may allow you to move back immediately with the children (in order not to miss school). You can live in the rented house and he moves to Ireland as soon as he has found another job?

Just an idea....