I may be wrong here but it sounds to me like you have your walls up. Like you may not be willing to receive the love she is trying to give you.

If I am right then it might would prevent you from being able to move forward and really forgive her.

I just feel like you are really holding onto this.

Like I said, I may be way off base.

Yes this could be true.

I know that i find it hard to "let" my FWH love me, i am very guarded with my heart still i think.

I think most BSs probably are. It is hard to let some have your heart back after they crushed it.

How do you let the walls down?

Try to think of a way Krazy because i agree with everyone else, you are going to have to deal with your FWW even if you divorce. And you will take "yourself" with you no matter where you go (and i need to follow my own advice ).

Did you have any fault in driving her to an affair? Is there not enough blame for you to feel that you could focus on your part in this and not on hers. I don't mean that you caused this. Just that you could take your anger against her and mitigate it with accepting some fault. Thus giving you an opportunity to look beyond what she did. Anger is not the absence of love. Apathy is. You don't sound apathetic. Anger can be dealt with. You need more IC and MC.

Whenever we BS's work tooth and nail to try to save the M after Dday, we have no way of looking into the future and seeing just exactly what it is we will be saving.

Although most of cannot see it at the time, most of us would agree in hindsight that the M will never be the same as it was before.

I did ask myself this question very early on - what if I get WW to stay but later decide I am the one who wants out? I struggled quite a bit with it.

I have to say that I have shared your thoughts. Recently in fact. But I have taken the view that my commitment to the recovered M is the same as my commitment to the original M - that it is a commitment.

So since my FWW has kept her part of the bargain and fulfilled her commitment in the recovered M, it would be wrong of me to not keep to my part of the bargain.

My FWW could have left at any time. She stayed because I asked her to. Now I am obligated - like it or hate it - I'm obligated.

From your description, your FWW is doing nothing to make you unhappy. If you haven't already heard it a thousand times, I'l remind you of what so many reminded me - you are the only one who can make you happy.

I'll bet you money a divorce won't find you that happiness you seek. My PayPal against your PayPal.

So go find it yourself and stop placing that burden on FWW.

Krazy,

It seems like you are getting alot of pressure here to "man up" and fix the marriage. I think you have spent enough time to know if you are going to be able to get over this or not. One problem I have with the process of MB is that it often puts the BS in this position where they asked the WS to comeback and tried to recover the M. So they are obligated to recovery.

That is total complete crap and I don't think it is what Harley means the program to be. You tried your best during very difficult time and now you have had some time to get your head around this. If you think D is the only thing that will work for you then I think you have earned it. If you think you want to try some more and have not decided yet, you have also earned that.

I don't know how to tell you WW, mine was not bitter when I broached the subject but she is very weird.

For some BS, it is not possible to have the marriage / life they want after adultery. For some there are no "right" choices. They have to choose the least worst outcome.

For some that means staying in a marriage with the person that hurt them so badly so that the wider framework of their life is retained for themselves and their kids.

For some a divorce, with the loss of a lot of the life framework afforded by their marriage.

Many are blessed with a much improved life and marriage after recovery. But for some, that is not possible. The least worst option is the highest ambition for those folks, unfortunately.

6:

Unlike Krazy, after you came to MB, you looked at your wife, after her A of ten years ago, and decided to address it.

In addressing it, she took the opportunity to run away.

She was fine with the status quo with you. So were you. MB opened your eyes.

There is nothing wrong with what Dr. Harley proposes. Dr Harley is very specific that NOT ALL Marriages can be saved, nor should they. And if its ALOT of work on behalf of the BS, then so be it. In sickness and in health, right?

And the BS CAN, and maybe should, make the decision that they have put in enough work, and they don't want to anymore.

In your case 6, off to Italy she went.

In Krazy's case? He seems to have a FWW who is willing to work with him. He is unwilling to put the cards on the table with his FWW to maybe get to that resolution.

Doesn't matter if she might be "destroyed" by this action. It just matters that he finally, let her KNOW what he is really thinking and what he is all about. In many respects, he appears to FWW of practicing a perfect Plan A to her. She's comfortable.

He's Krazy inside.

He needs to let that out.

He may still divorce her after letting it out.

But a least he gave his marriage a fair shot at that point.

You put your cards on the table 6, and your W went to Italy. Krazy may put his cards on the table and find out that HE CAN accept what happened. Because his FWW will truly start to understand what she did to Krazy, and WHAT she can do to start fixing it.

But as far as she is concerned right now, it looks fixed to her.

LG

LG,

I agree that he needs to put it all out there either way and he can probably use that to come to something that is better than where he is today (also either way.) I was also remarking on the idea that it was somehow unfair for him to now decide he can't do it, because his xWW is trying. It is certainly sad and will be difficult for the children but it is not unfair. I'm a little sensitive on this subject because I tried my best for 10 years before realizing that I probably couldn't do it and should have D'd earlier.

He may know that he can't do it and there is nothing she can do to fix it. I don't know that I'm trying to support him in either decision. I'm sure you remember how uncertain I was up until after the D was over. In fact, for me, the post D actions made me more certain I did the right thing but it was all pretty scary.

6yl

There is no fair in life.

There have been many a WS that has wanted to recover but their BS did not. No BS has to attempt recovery. When attempting recovery and the BS can't do it. That's it he's done. Fair does not come into it.

So Krazy's WW wants to recover. She wanted to have an affair too.
Krazy had no control over her affair and she has no control over his wanting out. KW in chosing to have an affair gave K his choice.

I hope they can recover. Does KW post here. Can K get her to post here.

Road,

I get what you are saying, certainly Krazy can never get to a place where this is fair. People, however, can try to behave in a way that is fair and just.

I hope Krazy, and xWW, can get to a place where they are both happy.

6:

This is what the problem is:

She is, and percieves that Krazy is too.

Your WW wasn't happy, nor were you. Then your WW got "better" because things were after many years of calm? But you were never "happy".

Krazy fears that if he DOES push the issue, then maybe his marriage WILL end. Hence the title of this thread. He can't even tell her that he wants to end it.

You feared the repercussions as well. Then you pushed it. And your Marriage ended.

It has worked out well so far for you. That might be true in Krazy's case. It might be that he needs to wait 7 more years to get to the same place as you.

He has a "better" FWW, seemingly remorseful and doing the right things. He had a truly horrible Dday. So the A was revealed to him, you never had that 6.

And 6, I'm not debating you here. I like your POV. Krazy interests me too. I was one of the first posters on his original thread. His anger has mellowed somewhat since he has been here, but so much of his sitch is at stalemate.

LG

LG,

I'm not trying to debate either. I think everyone agrees that he needs to tell her what he is thinking, especially since it seems to be an enduring feeling. I'm just not certain that he needs to stay focused on recovery rather than figuring out what D would mean and feel like.

I don't mean to come across as certain on any of this. I remember how hard it is to make that decision.

Krazy, what you are experiencing- besides some form or PTSD- is cognative dissonance. How do you reconcile two opposite ideas?

How could someone who loves you and who you love DO THIS???? And how can you ever get over it!!!

I think it must be a lot like the question that is asked to WS's when they first counsel with Dr Harley- wouldn't the best scenario be the one where you are in love again with the mother/father of your children?

The answer is, "well, yah, but it's not possible."

But with Harley's help, perhaps it is possible. Maybe not, but what have you got to lose? Right now, you are stuck in a limbo, and don't know how you can get out....but maybe Dr Harley knows. You don't want your children to be from a broken home- I know you've expressed that numerous times- so would you try this one last thing to make sure you've done everything?

I want you to succeed, because maybe that means mine will ultimately too.


Oh, and Dude, you an a whole nother thread......

Until you are willing to make some changes in yourself you stand no chance at recovery. D is the only outcome.

You've stated yourself that you have no ability to forgive.

The roadblock to R is not your wife, it's you, and I think you know that.

Are you willing to learn to forgive?

To do so you will need to make some major changes in your life.

I know, I had to as well.

Everyone is flawed in some way.

You've got the right to D as all BS's do. You have to decide if you use it. Your children will benefit greatly if you don't. But if all you do is stuff your feelings inside you help no one. If you can deal with them then you can save your family from break up.

Have you tried any IC? I'd hate to see you toss 3 yeears of recovery effort.

Krazy,

I'm sorry you find yourself feeling this way. If this is your decision then I'm sure everyone here will understand and support you. If you don't mind though, I wanted to point a couple of things out for you.



What's apparent to me is that regardless of what your FWW has put you through deep down inside you still love her. You wish you didn't, but you do none the less. You can tell by your concern on how hurt she will be should you choose the D route. You're stuck somewhere between loving your DW and hating the choices she made. Which is completely understandable. Lord knows I've had my own struggles with it.


I think you're looking for something that doesn't exist Krazy. I doubt anyone is ever really "OK" with what happened in their situations. They just learned to appreciate what they have today, rather than how they got there. For some, this is an enormous task.

So, Krazy, I have a couple of questions for you, but you need to take off your BH hat for a second though. Is your FWW a good wife? Do you truly feel she understands what you have been through? Does she provide the things you would want in a M?

I ask these questions because I don't really believe that D is the answer you are looking for Krazy. In fact, I think it will make you feel worse than you do already. You are going to have to face the issues you have one way or another so why not do it while still M and see what happens.

I've got some suggestions to help you sort things out.

PTSD - I'm sure you are suffering from some form of this as many BSs do. Take some time to learn how to cope with it effectively. Coping With PTSD

Resentment - Boy this one is a killer. I found something that has helped me tremendously in this area. Handling Resentment Whenever I feel it building, I reread this page and it has helped a lot.

Above all else Krazy, I think you need to talk to your FWW. Pretending the elephant isn't sitting in the room is eating you alive. It's feeding the problem because "how on earth can you FWW go through life like there's nothing wrong when you are still so devastated inside." The only problem is that she has no idea how you are feeling. It's a recipe to build resentment. I totally get where you're coming from because I'm just learning to deal with it myself. You don't have to be "Ok" with the past to find happiness again Krazy. Take a chance and rock the boat a little. The conflict will create intimacy.

Hope some of this helps...

Want2Stay

Krazy

Let me tell you how I came to Plan D. Like you, I was constantly reminded of what she did. I went through 15 months of IC and I still could not completely trust her. She did everything right on her part but it was still not enough for me to get past it. I don't blame her for not trying to rebuild our marriage, it's just something I could not get past.

For me, betrayal is the worst thing you can do to someone's trust. Betrayal comes in many forms and levels and an affair is definitely up there as being one of the worst in my book. I just never felt like I could trust her completely, like I did in the past, and that bothered me.

One day when my wife was working late I tried to call her. No answer on her work phone or cell phone for two hours. Instantly, my first thoughts were, "she's doing it again". The rollercoaster of emotions came back and I nearly fell to the floor.

She finally came home and explained that her cell phone was dead (she was VERY bad with that) and that she forwarded her work phone to voicemail so she would not be disturbed. I did not yell, blame, accuse, or point any fingers because the reality is she did nothing really wrong (other than not calling me).

That was when it hit me. I asked myself, "do I really want to be like this 20 years from now? Do I really want to be automatically thinking the worst when this happens again?"

Simple answer for me...no. I missed trusting someone and looking in her eyes and not thinking what she did. So I had to prepare for divorce.

It took me 6 months before I broke it to her because I didn't want to make a hasty decision. The more time went by the more I knew I didn't love her. I tried many things, but it just didn't work.

When the day came for me to tell her I sat her down on the couch (April 20, 2007 @ 5:32pm) and told her straight and simple - I want a divorce. I didn't start with, "you know I've tried" or "I know how hard you've worked" or blah, blah, blah, blah. It's not my style to beat around the bush. Just rip the band-aid off and get it over with. But that's me.

You're not alone in what you are feeling and you deserve to feel happy and trust again. Be careful in what you decide and make sure it's what YOU need.

How IAM ?

HOW does a BS deal with the perfectly natural and justifiable feelings of indignation, betrayal and disappointment when their WS throws away something of great worth to them ?

If, and it's a big IF, you can learn to forgive.

BTW, I never said they weren't perfectly natural and justifiable.

I have a similar observation to Bob’s.

How IAM? How to do all this? It certainly isn’t a Plan A. It isn’t any plan on this site at all.

Sometimes the best forgiveness is to D. Forgiving does not mean you have to stay married, does it?

And I completely disagree with this: “The roadblock to R is not your wife, it's you, and I think you know that.”

There isn’t any roadblock. After adultery there isn’t any road at all. K has been trying to find a way forward for three long, long years. He is obviously not getting something he needs. It is obvious his wife cannot ever give him what he heeds: an untainted marriage. That it took him three years to know this is perfectly acceptable.

How is it so many people here continuously say a BS has a (biblical?) right to D unless they try the MB recovery pill? Then they seem to loose this right. BS are not allowed to change their mind?

Adultery changes everything, forever. And not for the better. MB does not always work. Rarely works, actually. Excepting on BS that submit their brain to the patented EN lobotomy.

I think this situation should be absolutely no different than the advice constantly spouted to WS that they should have divorced rather than commit adultery. K has the same option. He has the same rights the adulterers had when they chose to commit adultery. He is miserably unhappy and it can’t be fixed on earth or in heaven, not for him, so he has an inalienable right to D. Period.

The best advice he can be given is to do it ethically.

Then he can heal. Only then.


Oh, and K, I am certain you do have a great ability to forgive. Perhaps just not this. Not until you are away from her, the biggest trigger.

Wonder if K's reading any of this?

So sorry you're hurting Krazy.