Yes, we did t/j didn't we. Oops.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the issue but if you examine ALL data, I suspect it likely is true. What I mean by "all" data is that you take into account all marriages where infidelity has occurred. I think I heard a statistic that something like over 50% of such marriages go straight to divorce and that 50+% has to be included. I do believe the percentage of those who successfully and happily recover are toward one end of the curve. If you limit your sample to only those couples who have tried reconciliation or, even worse, those that have tried the MB approach, then I think it gives a much more pessimistic view.

Look at how many registered users there are on this site. Look how many regularly post. Most that fail don't continue to post but there are also those that succeed that decide to "move on" and no longer post. What would be interesting is to know of all the registered users, what percentage D'd, stayed in the M but unhappily, recovered and are happy, etc. I think Glass, Pittman, et.al. do offer statistics but, since most M's hit by infidelity go straight to D, there will never be a true representative sample. This would also be heavily skewed by culture/nationality. Knowing something about Mexico, for example, I don't believe statistics developed in the US could be applied in Mexico because the cultural attitude to marriage, religion and infidelity is so different.

Couple of things. First , I agree, the chances of a marriage surviving are pretty low, even by Harley's admission. Most plan A's do not work and Plan B has even less success. They may give the best chance, but it is still a longshot. I've read several stats in the 30% range, which seem consistent with Harley's figure, near as I can tell.
My own therapist who practices a lot in this area says he sees about 10% stay together, and these are folks that, intially, are at least motivated to try. Many just get out right away.
Second, I have no way of knowing if some WW's feel remorse and pain. I have never seen it from my tow XWWs, so I have some doubts.
I do feel, that if they do feel pain, it is qwarfed by the pain they have inflicted on the BS. I think a person capable of a LTA is fundamentally different than those who don't go that route. It takes so much lying and deceit and disregard for others that it seems improbable that they have normal levels of empathy or integrity. So, I wonder what those that claim remorse feel and whether it stems more from regret at being caught vs feeling bad for the BS.

It's only been a few months HiP. Your WW may never feel remorse but I'd bet she's not going to have a rosy life either. Miserable? I don't know but given that she's a user, has poor coping mechanisms, and believes a POSOM is a good guy...I do believe it will catch up with her one day. It may take years, it may take decades but odds are against her given her messed up mentality.

Just fighting and living for my kids right now. Can't even think of getting into any relationship of my own - not now, not in the future! Living and taking one day at a time. Trying hard to get my interests in my most beloved hobbies resurrected.

I have even quit my job, as unfortunate as it is, given this terrible economy.

What beats me, is how can any court, or any jury ever think that a wh*ring spouse is capable of taking good care of the kids? Even 50%? My wh*ring wife was getting it off for 5 hours in her car while I was attending my daughters big school play, and all my daughter could ever focus on was the empty seat besides me - her Mom never showed up. We caught up with her later at home - looking pretty exhausted - since the s*x had been ravaging for her body. And now, the judicial system claims that same woman can take care of my kids? What a joke!

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that there hasn't been a day that's gone by in 4 years that I haven't thought about what I did, and I wonder if there ever will come a day that I don't think about it...I'm beginning to think that is part of the consequences...For me it certainly isn't about regretting being caught...I'm soooooooooooo THANKFUL that I was caught and stopped...I regret DEEPLY what I put Mr. W through...I've read his journals from my wayward time period and I promise you that I feel CRUSHED that I did that to him...I shudder to think the amount of damage that I would have caused our dd if I had continued on the very destructive wayward path...I also feel great embarrassment that I ever acted that sleazy, immature, cruel...and so many other negative adjectives...Additionally, I feel HUGE amounts of awe for Mr. W's strength, mercy, forgiveness and grace...

So yes, I believe that if a FWS truly repents they do feel great amounts of soul searing remorse...

Mrs. W

Well, then I do not understand how you were capable of doing this to him in the first place, then. I have no reason to doubt you. But, it is confounding trying to understand why someone capable of feeling remorse does this for so long. There must be some explanation but I can't understand it. It is like robbing a bank or some other egregious offense. Can a good person really do this?

Well yes, Zelmo, it baffles the heck out of me as well...I will tell you that both Mr. W and I were quite liberal...saw the "gray" in things before this happened...proudly called ourselves "open-minded" and other bumper sticker stuff like that...ugh...We believed we could be "friends" with our ex boyfriends/girlfriends - have opposite sex friends...We were naive about that...I came very close to being the BS myself...Mr. W propositioned one of our staff who THANKFULLY said "no"...My affair came later...it was with my old high school/college boyfriend...When he contacted me thru classmates I told Mr. W that day...Many of our conversations were held with Mr. W in the same room...the slope got too slippery...it was a MISERABLY BAD PLAN to be talking to an ex boyfriend that I'd had a past sexual relationship with...DUH!!! (hindsight is crystal clear of course)

Yes, I do believe that "good people" can succumb to temptation...The key is never putting yourself in temptation's way, yes? So, now we know...ugh...I'd give anything to have learned this another way...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

along the lines of this thread can you try to explain something for me? Do you have any explanation or reason why you "got it" and became remorseful and changed but so many others don't?

I guess also, do you have a theory as to the thoughts of so many WS's who never repent? Do you think it's stubborn pride? Do you think they do feel bad but can't admit it?

Do you think that the A trnasforms their brains' DNA forever and forever clouds their sense of right and wrong? Do you think they maybe feel like they can't ever be forgiven, so why try?

Have you ever spoken to a repentent and an unrepentent WS and seen the difference in their thinking and questioned it?

I know this is a tough, and perhaps idiotic question. I mean I know you can't speak for all. I was just wondering if you had a theory?


SWW

Hi SWW...Just a few light questions, eh? I'll give it a shot...

MANY, MANY times I read the stories here and say, "There but for the grace of God go I"...I too have wondered why I was "spared"...This is what I've come up with in my thoughts on it...

1. I had a heck of a time leading a "double life" and got caught very quickly which meant less entrenchment...It was about a 3 month affair and it was long distance...I literally acted so crazy that it was impossible not to know something was up with me...I had always been an open book to the extreme, so when I wasn't suddenly it was glaringly obvious that something was going on...Dishonesty was not something that came easily for me at all...this was an aberration of character for me...I do feel blessed that I was granted the opportunity to see and repent for not just the affair, but for other sins as well...repentence is such an incredible gift...

2. I have a VERY moral mother who stood by Mr. W and was instrumental in ending my affair...She is NOT one of those moms that would ever say "whatever makes you happy"...She and Mr. W conspired on just what to do, and then my mom called OM (who she'd known since we were kids) with some MAJOR legitimate threats telling him to "End it now, WITHOUT telling Mrs. W why, or ELSE"...And he did...and I didn't know about that for about 1.5 years after the fact. (Thank God...that was information that foggy me didn't need to know at the time.) My mom and Mr. W saved me and our family from me! God bless them...

3. I grew up in a home where problems were "swept under the rug" and it drove me CRAZY...(my father had Bipolar Disorder and refused treatment always)...I KNEW what not dealing with things head on would do to a family...For that reason I recognized that this (affair recovery) HAD to be dealt with properly...You couldn't just ignore it and hope that it would go away...

4. I am a Christian...In the affair I was tormented by the fact that I was in active rebellion to God...I couldn't pray or even read Christian fiction...I had to work HARD to push God from my mind...When the whole thing came crashing down I KNEW that I had much to repent for...I was ashamed...And back again to my incredible mom...I often hear her voice in my head saying, "times may change, but morals never do"...and it brings to mind Proverbs 22:6 (NIV), "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."

5. Mr. W is a BIG reason that I got it...and I can't likely do justice to all the whys of that in writing either...I wish I could...First, he's an amazing guy...it was REAL TOUGH to do a history rewrite about him so that I could justify what I was doing...ESPECIALLY when he began Plan A...He was also fantastic at feeding me stuff that he knew would get back to OM that would attack his insecurites...(Mr. W is an evil genius )...Mr. W is a very calm and confident guy...He has never once yelled at me or called me a name - he comforted me and showed me empathy when I certainly didn't deserve it...He listened to such major fog and never even flinched...a lesser man would have crumbled...He loved me when I was at my most unlovable...You know it's real hard to not be incredibly sorry that you did something so heinous to someone so wonderful...all the bogus rationalizations and justifications fall away very quickly in the face of such amazing grace...

As far as other WSs go, gosh, that's a tall order and I'm not really qualified to answer, but I suppose my theory is that perhaps they were not raised with much moral guidance...had parents that were all about "follow your heart"..."whatever makes you happy"? I honestly don't know...I can only tell you that I am so grateful that I was spared...I most assuredly did not deserve to be...

Mrs. W

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write that Mrs. W.

SWW

Read my update. I'm one who is divorced and my xh was one of the WORST WS's imho ever here.

My xh not only cheated on me, but after our divorce and his immediate remarriage he CONTINUED cheating on her..the x ow. FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

Hmmm. what broke him? Well imho unless the family and friends OPENLY CALL OUT and tell the WS and tell them of their displeasure with the cheating and ema's it will continue. They have to FEEL some pain and or loss of something dear.

It had to be exteme for my now xh to change.

A year and a half ago he had a near death experience involving a long hospital stay and a flight on life flight to save him. Did that work? Nah.

What did? Total revocation of his freedom due to his own choices and actions. He's in jail now due to another WS deed..involving he said/she said with yet another ow.

It depends on the person..but the more dastardly the deeds of the WS to me equals the absence of moral compass and conscience. My xh was as about a dastardly WH as one could come by.

Mrs. W you are *very* lucky to have such a Mom. My WW's Mom shot back with "She's finding happiness". My immediate thoughts to that were: she's probably slept around too in her days.

Still trying to come to terms with how my whole life has changed in less than 6 months - my dreams, hopes, fears, stresses, everything! Shattered!

I agree...the dire scenario Aphelion presents is a slim exception to the rule. And who would ever want to be with someone who was that inacapable of self-reflection, self-improvement, and empathy anyway?

Mrs W,

It's uncanny how I am always in agreement with you.

It's not just that (and I agree BTW). It is bordering on asocial. This is a personality that could end up on CNN. I'm glad I don't live near someone like this. Seriously. For my childrens' sake.

I do agree that likely less than half of marriages affected by infidelity survive and truly recover. My guess is that a subset of these (confessed ONSs, short-term romantic flings, i.e. a few months, that are over and admitted to the BS) have much higher "successful recovery" rates. Among the subset we see here on MB most often--ongoing romantic affairs with unrepentent, completely-fogged-up WSs--I would estimate that 2/3rds or more end in divorce...with a small percentage of these couples re-marrying each other later (I think I read a figure of 12% somewhere for this scenario). As a general guide, I would say the following:


1. The longer the affair was/is, the less likely recovery ensues.

2. If the affair is ongoing (as opposed to ending/ended) at the time of admission/discovery, the less likely recovery ensues.

3. If the WS is in continuing "unrepentent lie-and-deny mode" (as opposed to displaying at least some measure of confession & contrition), the less likely recovery ensues.

4. The less "outside pressures" & negative consequences (disapproval by children/family/friends, financial/career implications, social ostracization, etc.) that are available to bring to bear via exposure, the less likely recovery ensues.

5. The more tightly involved (i.e. 'in-love' as well) the OP is, the less likely recovery ensues.

6. The more highly romantic (i.e. strong belief in the over-riding value of 'feelings') the WS is, the less likely recovery ensues.

7. The longer the affair-partners knew each other platonically beforehand, the less likely recovery ensues.

8. If the affairee is the WIFE, the less likely recovery ensues.

Do you define recovery as simply not getting divorced, in limbo or as a truly happy marriage in the above assessment?

Actually, the stats from studies & surveys on this are fairly compelling. Looking at people who left their marriages for affairs, 85% admit to regret and remorse for doing so 3-5 years out from divorce. I doubt even they can ever fully appreciate the magnitude of the pain the BS has been through and I would guess that many don't really want to know and don't want to face it.

Cold comfort for the BS: feeling (often long-delayed) remorse for the anguish they inflicted and having regret for "not doing things differently back then" is NOT the same thing as the WS/xWS truly and genuinely attempting reconciliation. There are many reasons for this--the BS/xBS doesn't want them back, the xBS has re-married or is serious with someone, the WS/xWS can't bring themselves to express these thoughts TO their BS/xBS, the xWS goes on to someone new after their A ends, and so on and so on.

I know personally of several WS who left for an affair and now wish they hadn't after finding out that "the grass wasn't so green" after all. I even knew of 2 xWS who attempted to reconcile with their xBS after their (predictably) failed affair-marriages...their original spouses wanted nothing to do with them anymore.

First, thenk you for the explanation Mrs W.
Along the lines of what SDCW says, I read an anlogy that made sense to me.The author compared the aftermath of an affair and its effect on a relationship to having a flat tire. If immediate attention is paid, like remorse, transparency, ownership and couseling, it is like fixing the flat before driving on it extensively. But, when the WS coninues to lie, gets defensive and abusive, it is like continuing to drive on the tire. It gets shredded and the rim is damaged.
My first wife was a serial cheater. She never confessed or apologized until my son confronted her with information he had solicited from me when he got older. I , misguidedly, had tried to protect her image to him and had never given him the info he deserved(of course , he was 4 when I found out.
Then 7 years after the divorce, when she found he now knew, she came to me an apolgized. I had no feelings for her anymore and when she told me she still loved me, I felt nothing but pity and some anger.