Flash hello cat!
There's lots of good stuff over here. You ladies have been here quite awhile, are there any good threads on POJA, not small stuff, I mean like big purchases?
Just wondering if anything sticks out in your minds.

And yes, I've read the articles and posts, still stuck that's all.

No POJA here, NewEveryDay. Tonight H had the TV on as usual and D9 was watching with them. What were they watching? GIJane, rater R! I saw about 30 seconds and said (not knowing yet what it was rated) 'do you think this is ok for D9 to watch? Seems violent." He says "it's fine". I click the 'guide' and find out it's rate R and then some really awfully bloody stuff starts happening so I say "she can't watch this".

H gets up, says FINE SHE CAN WATCH WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO WATCH, starts slamming cabinet doors in the kitchen and stomps downstairs to watch on the little TV.

I have four children!

Vittoria, I have a horrible memory, so I'm no help. Why don't you start a thread here with that title? I'm sure you'll get traffic, and answers, that way.

Thanks.
I will do that right now cat, good suggestion.

So I have mixed feelings. I messed up, he messed up, I tried to be O&H, and it all ends with 'that's ok, I'm not mad.'

So now I feel like he just patted me on the head.

Worked at church all morning (youth car wash). He wanted to go to a movie, I said I had too much stuff to do at home (we went to one last night). Went home, I worked on my part-time editing, he watched tv. I asked him if he wanted me to set up his computer so he could work on his XYZ stuff (for a job in China he turned down, but now wants to look at applying for, he said 2 weeks ago he wanted to get it rolling again, but hasn't taken a step). So yes, I pushed him. He ignored me. An hour later, I asked again, he gave me 'that look' so I dropped it. He finally got out his computer, but worked on current job's stuff. I went to wash dog, he said wait he would help. I waited and did other stuff for almost half hour, finally made it really clear I was going to start (walking dog past him on leash, carrying pitcher, filling bathtub). He still didn't stop working so I put dog in tub and started washing. He heard me and came in, "couldn't wait, huh?' Me: "I waited 20 minutes; I have a lot of things I need to get done, and I needed to do this first."

So we washed the dog. I'm making dinner cos D18's boyfriend is over, has to go home at 8 (I didn't tell H this). H's ex-coworker called and moaned about not getting his final paycheck, how he can't start his new job cos he doesn't even have a printer and can't afford to buy one (young guy who spends $1000/week on going clubbing). So up jumps H and tells me to help him figure out which printer to GIVE this guy! Oh, and the guy's coming by tonight to get it.

I'm in the middle of making dinner, but I go upstairs, give my opinion on the one of three (!) extra printer/fax machines H has, to give this guy. I go back downstairs to finish dinner (it's 7:30). D18 yells for me, says H is yelling for me to help him; I go upstairs and he wants help putting the printer into a box he got out of the attic. He is boxing this thing up, wrappers and all! Then I get mad. Fine! I say, and say 'I'll just get dinner done 2 hours from now' and start helping him. So he gets snippy back at me and tells me to leave, he'll do it himself. I say 'why are you boxing it up?! what has he ever done for you?!' He says he thought I would be happy that he's getting something gone out of the house. I say 'I am, but why now? And why box it up? You're GIVING it to him, not selling it to him. Let HIM box it up!' He continues, so I help. So we do that, then it's 8:25, and D18 says she has to take her boyfriend home.

So now, MY point of pride, being able to provide her boyfriend a dinner is out the window, as dinner still isn't finished. And then this ex-coworker calls and says he isn't coming by, after all!

So I come in the bedroom and steam awhile, but I think of what you guys would say to me, so I go out and say "I'm sorry I got snippy at you. It's just that this guy uses you all the time (he has cost my H hundreds of dollars, purposely stiffing H for bills), and I asked you about XYZ stuff so we could get your career moving and you couldn't be bothered to do anything about it, and there are things I've needed done around here for YEARS that I can't get you to do, and yet here calls R, and within the hour, you have go get what he needs. Frankly, I was jealous!'

He says, 'well, I was going to see if he wanted to buy one of the desks we need to get rid of ' and I'm thinking (1) what does that have to do with us having to jump when he calls, and (2) if he can't afford a printer, how can he afford a desk and (3) we both know damn well this guy would never pay us anyway and (4) you're just making an excuse so you don't have to look at your own behavior and lack of helping me. Oh, and I said that D18's boyfriend had to go home at 8 and that's why I needed to get dinner done, but that I hadn't told him that, so I apologized for getting upset when he didn't know I needed to have dinner done before 8.

So I was waiting to see what he would say. He just said 'that's ok, I'm not mad.'

Grrrrrrr!

Ok, wail away.

Quick from bberry
Why didn't you just tell H about dinner
Why help with printer if you don't want to
Why not say ”I am starting to wash dog now ” instead of playing games likes walking dog on leash in front

Hi cat,
I don't know your sitch or your H, but after reading this last post, I agree with the points made by jayne241.
You can club me now or later ..... your frustrations could have been prevented by you.

Let me guess, your H doesn't subscribe to MB philosophy does he?
The money lost to the boss would tick me off too. POJA would take care of this. Don't mind me, I've got that on the brain right now!

Why didn't you just tell H about dinner
Because it wasn't an issue, until it was. He normally doesn't want to know such details.

Why help with printer if you don't want to
Because he was yelling, in front of D18's boyfriend.

Why not say ”I am starting to wash dog now ” instead of playing games likes walking dog on leash in front
Because those are the actions that get the really angry responses. I DID say it at firest, he said to wait. I waited. If I said I'm starting now he would have blown up, thrown things, and makde the night miserable. I was trying to jog his memory (he gets involved in his stuff for hours on end, and then gets upset because he lost track of time; but if I say anything, I'm a nag) without saying out loud 'ok I've waited long enough now.' Because when he says something, he wants no more discussion.

All things said, it was a pretty low key 'flare up'. But then, he left feeling satiated (and apologized to), while I left feeling unheard and patronized.

But I guess at least I spoke at all, which is more than I usually do.

Thanks Vittoria, but I have a long history of H running things his way and me being passive aggressive because we can't talk and we can't POJA - because he's always right. But I'm trying to change my half. A year ago I wouldn't have even said anything. He never would have heard a single thing from my side.

I've been the queen of passive/aggressive too, actually the queen of many things but never the throne.
Since trying to fix your half, have you seen any change in H?

Cat cat cat cat cat.......

Methinks this calls for a 2x4 or two, but I'm so tired I'm not sure I trust my judgment, or my ability to deliver with kindness. (2x4? kindness? oxymoron?)

My house used to be like that, too, living in fear of the next AO. It took a whole lotta support, but I can tell you I am confident that I will not be in an environment like that again.

How about building a support network with

us here
IRL friends
IC
MC or even better the Harleys
meds if indicated

Abuse thrives in secrecy. Please consider getting support and getting your life out in the open. I think posting this weekend was a huge step in that direction. How about building on that momentum?

Getting dinner ready for the BF, was that a have to, want to, or would like to? This boy should be trying to impress YOU, right? Could your daughter and bf have finished up dinner or helped with the boxing thing? How about your H with the box thing, have to, want to, would like to? That "Do it right now because I said so" thing, is that a dance that you two still want to dance?

Cat, you're spending more time defending yourself than looking at your own problem.

(lol...I've been waiting to use that. )

Do you ever just say, "No."?

cwmi, yeah, I know. I think I was so proud of myself for making progress that I was frustrated with yesterday. Time to pull myself up and start making amends. I DID call H this morning on the way to work (I HATE doing that, and almost never do), to reconnect. He seemed to have been affected by what I said (went to bed early - a sure sign - and tossed and turned all night. And this morning he wasn't talking.

And no, I have almost never said no in 30 years. That's why it's so unnerving to do so, and such a shock to him when I do. If he calls me into another room, I go. If he says we're doing this, I go. If he wants to buy something and I don't, we buy it anyway.

It was a big deal for me to stop mowing the yard while he weeds, because he criticized how well I mowed all the time. So I finally just kept pulling weeds and didn't get up to mow, and he groused a bit, but since then has become the 'mower.' But I was shaking in my boots just to do that because in the past I got crucified for 'making' him do all the work, even though I was weeding and not laying in a hammock watching him.

That's just how our relationship is.

ned (that is so weird), making dinner was a want to, but also a have to cos H's other coworker was coming for dinner too. But we have no friends, no one ever comes over without a purpose, I guess the 'female' in me came out. D18 and her bf were putting together her graduation invitations. And the box was definitely a do not want to; but I tried to pull away the first time and came back down to finish dinner, and he started yelling in front of bf, so I quit dinner to help him. D18 has had a huge share of her friends witnessing his blowups, and I really really didn't want her to have this guy think our family was too much trouble (yes, it has happened in the past), because she really likes him, and I was hoping she'd have a fun summer with him before she moves away. So I was doing damage control, by giving in.

And then H spilled the toner dry ink all over the printer and the box because he was mad at me for daring to talk about wanting to stay downstairs and finish dinner, so we had to take it outside and clean the whole thing out, so that took another 30-40 minutes.

In his defense, it IS hard for one person to put the styrofoam around the printer and load it into the box. I was just upset that he jumped within a few minutes of talking to this guy to make it all neat and pretty for him - when he's giving it to him! - while I have curtains that haven't been hung in nearly 6 years. And on top of that, this guy has stiffed H several times, once to the tune of about $500 (he took H's travel receipts and claimed them on his own - after H paid for this guy's way!); and yet here he is, jumping over hoops to help this guy out. Like I told H, I just felt jealous.

I know I set myself up by not informing him I had to have dinner ready at a certain time, but at 6 or 7, it wasn't an issue, so it really wasn't something worth mentioning. It wasn't until we had spent an hour on the printer and D18 said she had to take bf home cos his dad was calling him that it became an issue, and then we were both upset - him for me not helping him and me for watching him salivate over getting to help yet another user friend.

Oh, and I forgot, that his other coworker friend was supposed to be coming over for dinner; that was the other reason I was cooking. And this guy never called us, so H called him to see what time he was coming (that was before the other guy called for the printer) and he made a lame excuse for not coming, and he wasn't even going to bother to let us know! That's the third time this guy has done this.

But thank you for the reminder for the support network. I really need to work on that.

Yes, there's been a fair amount of difference since I told him I'd been thinking of leaving a couple months ago. He has thrown away his trash occasionally, he came out and helped me with yardwork on Mother's Day, and what may have been an AO is occasionally just a snide remark disguised as a joke, like 'couldn't wait, huh?'. So we're better than a year ago. And I have been honest at least 3 times now. Even if I have to take a big breath and steel myself first.

Jayne, please go ahead. I'm willing to try anything.

Cat, I don’t disagree with anything that you said. At the same time, I don’t see you being gentle and kind to yourself. Your H may well run off this guy whether or not you attempt to intervene. Not your problem to own. There are many other options, like getting together at a neutral place, that you could brainstorm together. I understand the “freezing” under pressure. You all have helped me and continue to help me with this issue. I really think that further support would be helpful to you, too, and am grateful that you are considering it. Your consistency in action will help the new actions to become the ‘default’ for you, under pressure. How about planning some downtime for yourself today? What do you like to do?

What hits our buttons, eh, Cat?

Let's sort the whole day into

want to

need to

have to

and see what you really get...because sorting gets you into your highest honesty...and you're right...before you wouldn't have shared...not for three decades...and now, you are...and that takes some digesting for DH...your changes are disturbingly intimate, different, and he doesn't have a pocket for them yet.



Your editing job was a...

want to

so telling DH briefly, "My mind is full of have to do's right now, to get done today. I enjoyed the movie last night with you because I promised myself I'd get these things finished today."

You're doing your brilliant editing and he's watching tv (weekend downtime) and when you finish (minding your own stuff, not his about the job he said he wanted to reapply for) that task, you walk by him in the livingroom and

stop
sit next to him
or kneel in front of him and look into his eyes
and smile, kiss, hug, put your arm around him
and inform him

"Okay, I knocked out what I needed on the editing; now I feel calmer and clearer. Next, I want to wash the dog, then do X&Y. Oh, and DD's BF will be here only until 8, so I want to have dinner ready by 7pm. Will you help me get there?"

I think part of your dj's come in the guise "but I'm helping him--he wants me to" and those are the same that cause great pain to you when he does them for the same reason (seemingly)...focus on getting him what he wants

and it may not even be what he wants now

and you won't know 'cuz you assumed.

He can ask you specifically what he wants from you in terms of support "reminding" "encouraging" "discussing" "asking" "interest"...he determines, not you. Not yours to own.

Use the words want to...because they are true.

Not need to or have to...

and if you're reaching for the need/have to's, then see if you're trying to control what isn't respectful of you to control...to make change others' experience...which isn't love...

it's wishfulness...

We all have it, Cat...

I saw a lot of judgments, resentment, controlling...all from fear, not love.

And I saw you open your mouth again...which is amazing...and you did so and were disappointed in the response...so you were looking for a different/certain one...

that's you, not him.

You shared. And I think you didn't get a cool-super-great-yay feeling this time because it's time to go the next step...because you've shared before...

and now, when you don't, each day you don't, you let yourself down...so sharing yesterday was the minimum again...when you've done the amazing.

Give yourself encouragement, the reminders, the boosts...do the drive-bys every day...not skipping...same for affectionate drive-bys...informing...sharing...not asking to get or giving to change...

you matter...what you want matters to DH...what you need/have to varies...sort fear from love...speak more...and more...make daily goals...make it your boundary

so you'll keep the ones that have been eating away at your heart for decades...like not doing that which you will resent...hold yourself to it...and when you are acting to control and catch yourself at it...make the enforcement to share, right then, what you caught yourself doing.

Statements...not discussions. Drive-bys.

So that you wouldn't have gone upstairs during the packing-the-printer up...because when he asked for your opinion...you would have said, "I trust you completely on which one you are going to give him. I'm delighted you're letting go, giving it away to him. I kinda hate that it's him because I feel like he hasn't earned your kindness, your generosity...and I feel like I have. My priority is finishing this dinner. It's important to me as I want to make BF feel welcome, thank him for helping with the grad stuff."

And when DD says he's calling for you, say pretty much the same thing "DD, I trust you to help your father do what needs to be done while I'm in the kitchen."

Grad stuff doesn't come before father stuff...and leave their relationship between them. "I know when you yell in front of kids important to DD that it's not a reflection on me, just that it feels like it is..."

Share more. Daily. You can do this. So much in you...not harmful (even when painful to hear); not right or wrong; not screwed up or righteous...just you, shared...more.

LA

ned, you're right, not mine to own. I guess I'm too sensitive to D18 cos I just had to take her to IC last week because of her friends deserting her. And she finally falls for a guy after 3 years, and I just don't want us fighting to be the central issue for her losing him. And yes, kids DO break up because of parents; I've seen it happen several times.

What did you mean about the neutral place for brainstorming?

Downtime? I was thinking of joining the new yoga studio. I am trying to rationalize spending $100 of the extra money I'm earning on it.