Hi MB'ers, it's been a while since I've posted anything, since our A's ended 5 years ago life has been pretty good. I made many needed changes back then and we were able to enjoy a very happy and strong marriage. However, the one thing that I did not change was viewing porn. I have been viewing porn since I was a young teen and was always told that it was destructive. I rationalized that the person person I was hurting was myself and I didn't see any *major* drawbacks so I was OK with. My Wife has asked me for the 14 years we've been married to stop but to me it wasn't a problem so NOT following the POJA I allowed my desires for porn overide her emotions.

Yesterday it all came to a head. Avery close friend called me and told me that he and my wife had been talking for the last month and he recognised that the relationship had turned into an "unhealthy emotional connection". He cut it off wife my Wife and called me to ask my forgivness. --We all need more friends like this--. This lead to my wife and I having a "couch session" that lasted from 0930 Thursday to 0230 Friday. A lot of not met emotional needs was discussed.

What was finally made clear to me was the way that years of porn use have destroyed my wifes self-esteem. My wife is a gorgeous 5'4" blonde with green eyes and weighs 120lbs. She is more beautiful than any of the porn characters I saw. but years of my emotional abuse (porn) has left her feeling completely disconnected from me sexually. She sys she enjoys sex and craves a "real" sexual relationship, just not with me. She says she loves me very deeply but does not feel the "in love" feeling anymore and doesn't know if she can ever get over the 14 years of destroyed self worth.

She has told me how she feels so many times and on this one issue I have ignored her feelings so many times that she has just become numb to it. She also doesn't belive that I will change.

For the 1st time in my life I get how porn is destructive and it's NOT just self destructive. It's emotional abuse to the most important person in my life. But I am 100% committed to never accessing any form of porn again for ever; I'm done with hurting my precious Wife.

How can I help her heal and forgive me and begin to open back up to me so we can get the life back we both so desire?

We're leaving our kids with my parents this weekend and are going to see our pastor then head to the beach for some more "couch sessions".

Thanks,

ChangingMan

What actions are you doing to prove you are committed to not accessing porn again?
Attending 12-step groups? Working with a CSAT? Working through recoverynation.com? Doing a recovery program through church? Do you have an accountability partner that is not your wife? Read books by Patrick Carnes? Worked through his workbook?

Because, if you really are addicted, if you simply abstain from porn, you are going relapse. You need recovery.

For me, the only way that I could begin to trust my husband was to see that he absolutely did the recovery work. I also had to do my part, to heal myself from the effects of my husband's sex addiction (porn addiction is a form of sex addiction.)

Please note, it typically takes couples 3-5 years to heal from sex addiction. You've got a long road ahead of you. We weren't even able to think about MB concepts until my husband had been sober for a year. My husband spent nearly 2/3rds of his life self-medicating. It took him a while to begin to share some emotional intimacy with me.

I agree. It's one thing to have a goal and say you'll change. It's a totally other thing to have a plan and to put that plan to use. What's your plan? It's not enough to just say "I'll never do that again." You can't expect your wife to believe that.

So...I think what you should do is make an appointment with a counselor and tell your wife what you're doing. Demonstrate what you plan to do to heal the marriage and yourself.

I'd also be curious how much time and money you've wasted on this over the years. If you can guesstimate hours/days/money it might help your resolve.

There is a christian porn accountability website. What it does is when you join is: you have another person's email as well as yours, and whenever and "adult" site is clicked on, it instant emails your accountability partner who could be your wife's computer/email or a friend who can/will tell your wife and make you accountable. I do not have a porn issue, but have heard of this website through World magazine and Promis Keepers.

Good Luck, you can do it!

Hi ChangingMan, sorry you are back here, but you are right, pornography is devastating to marriages. But Marriage Builders principles can turn your marriage around. Dr Harley has several very good articles on how to repair a marriage after porn addiction. He writes extensively on the subject and has long experience recovering these marriages.

I would also strongly suggest you either get to the next Marriage Builders weeekend and/or get phone coaching with Steve or Jennifer Harley. They will assess your situation and give you a PLAN.

Most important is that your wife and this friend end ALL contact. They should never see or speak to each other again. If they do, then this emotional affair is going to go to the next level. If your friend is married, hopefully his wife has been told too.

Your W was unhappy in your marriage, but the larger issue is that she does not have appropriate boundaries with other men. If that is not addressed by her, this is likely to happen again.

Please check out Dr Harley's article on recovering a marriage from a porn addiction:

What to Do When Your Spouse Has an Addiction to Pornography

I guess it's hard to determine how much usage makes a person an addict. Honestly I don't feel like an addict. The only thing I've ever paid for was 2 magazines back in 1997, the rest has all been free online sites and movie files from my brother in laws computer. I'm far to cheap to pay for this crap. Frequency is hit and miss. I've gone months without looking at it when our computer was down and othere than that I'd look at it maybe once or twice a week, sometimes more for 10 - 15 minutes at a time, something like that, sometimes more. I didn't arrange my days around it or have withdrawls if I didn't look. I'm not trying to down play the issue I've just never actually tried to figure out how much I actually looked at it.

I completely get what you all are saying about words vs. actions and while right now a counselor doesn't seem necessary I will defently keep that option open. I understand that to help my Wife heal I need to do whatever it is that will help her know that I am P free. I really like the idea of having it send her an email if I click on any adult site, I've never heard of that.

Thank you for all of the resource options, I will be exploring those this weekend.

The important thing is to make this a permenant change so I can start helping her rebuild the beautiful self image that I have destroyed. Thanks guys, I have a lot to think about.

ChangingMan

CM, we were cross posting. Please check out the link I posted from Dr Harley.

Okay. Just using the 14 years you've been with your wife, that's 728 weeks. Using 30 minutes a week of porn watching, I believe that would mean you've spent 364 hours of your time with your wife basically undermining her self confidence. Comes to about 15 days that you've wasted watching porn that you'll never get back...

None of us knows how or when we're going to leave this world, but I would wager that most of us would give our eye teeth for another 15 days...

Not trying to make you feel bad - just trying to show in a concise way how much time you've devoted to this habit - and that doesn't count the years before you married.

One of the best ways to stop a habit is to make it feel extremely undesirable. I hope I've helped with that.

So what exactly ARE you doing to help her restore her image?

Do you ask her to tell you about herself? Do you ask her her hopes and dreams? Do you ask her to take care of things to show her you respect her abilities? Do you ask her opinion of things? Do you brag about her to other people? Do you thank her parents for creating such a great person for you to be lucky enough to marry? Do you sacrifice on yourself so you can afford to get something for her that means a lot? Do you even know what would mean a lot to her? Do you really know her?

Or is she just pretty?

Women need to be loved for everything, not just their looks. I'm trying to find in your posts that you recognize that.

MelodyLane, ironically enough I absolutely devoured this site back in '04 and was able to save my marriage using Dr. Harley�s techniques. He is one of the "heroes" in my life. This friend is a friend from church who we have been very close to him and his wife since we started attending this church in '04. When he found out 2 years ago that his wife had been having an A I coached him through the process using printed pages from this site. He changed his entire outlook on the A and did everything right to fix his marriage but his wife had made up her mind that she didn't want it fixed and refused to address any issue and filed for divorce. She was my wife�s closet friend, even in the delivery room for our 3rd child�s birth. But she made the decision (I helper her lay out the pro's and con's of staying vs. leaving) to leave and to this day stands by that decision. This friend is in our Sunday school class and is my closet friend at church. This is going to be tough.

I agree about the lack of appropriate boundaries with other men. This is actually guy #4. 2 guys were EA's 1 was a physical "thing" (only lasted 2 days and one was sexual which lasted 2 months (that was in '04). Each time this happened it devastated me. The physical "thing" was with my older brother on a summer family vacation (and you thought the Grizwalds had some sucky vacations!) But each time as we started working through the issues it came up that the reason she was so vulnerable was because I was not meeting one/some/all/any of her needs. If I would fill her need for attention she would not so easily become attached to other guys. This is something that over time and through the stresses of life I have slacked off on and it's high time I get back to it. Thanks for the link; I've studied it eagerly.

Hi Changing Man,

As a woman who just recently went through the heart wrenching and devastating discovery of my husband's porn "addiction" let me tell you a few things from my point of view. The reason why I feel it is so relevant is because he would describe his porn usage almost EXACTLY the same way you did. Almost word for word. "sometimes I can go months without viewing porn.... at most it was a couple times a week for 10-15 minutes.... I never paid, I only viewed free porn on line.... why does it matter I'm not hurting anybody else.... etc etc"

If I didn't know better, I would think that maybe you were he... except that I'm not 5'4, green eyed, nor anywhere near 120 lbs (although I did just have a baby, so I cut me some slack!).

Point being - let me give it to you from where I stand.

GET A COUNSELOR. NOW. That was my one and only requirement for my husband after I found out. Obviously he had already sworn he was never going to view porn again.... but I knew that relapse was inevitable. That he needed to have somebody else to talk to about it, to turn to, to discuss the issues with, and somebody who had seen worse and heard worse and helped people with bigger more drastic problems than he has. I told him he MUST find a therapist who was a registered sex addiction therapist, and that he must meet with them at least once a week. Period. No exceptions (okay, except that we've been quarantined with H1N1 for the past 2 1/2 weeks.... but next week he's back on schedule).

What did the therapist do for me? Helped him see the light. Forced him to fess up to things, and analyze things, and evaluate his actions and how they affect me, him, and our marriage. He has a plan. An action plan. An escape plan. And he's sticking to it. That's the only reason why I trust him again.

She's had some good suggestions. Things that, when I try to be fair (which is hard because my trust has been so violated and my self esteem was crushed), make good sense for our marriage and our sex life and our future together.

You may think that you don't need a counselor. TOUGH. Go and look on line, do a search for local sex therapists near you, and start making some phone calls. I don't care if they don't take your insurance. Do it anyway. Your marriage is worth it. Your future is worth it. And no therapist is going to cost more than a divorce lawyer and child support. I guarantee it.

More than anything, seeing my husband go to a therapist, and come home with his workbook, and sometimes he would have homework, sometimes not. Maybe he did but it wasn't something we needed to talk about. These things made me see that he was trying, and that he was willing to put forth effort to CHANGE and to SAVE our marriage. THIS is what your wife needs to see. She needs to believe in you again, and that will take some time. You are going to have to be on your BEST behavior. No passwords on your computer. No unexplained time away from home. NO STAYING UP LATE ON THE COMPUTER AFTER SHE GOES TO BED!!!!!! That was when my husband was watching porn, and to this day, I still do not go to bed before him. Period. You need to show her that you understand that you F'd up, and that you understand it's TOTALLY your responsibility to fix it. And you need to talk the talk and walk the walk. No violations. The first time you re-violate that trust... well... if she's at all like me, then it's OVER. End of discussion.

So I hope you reconsider your stance on a counselor. It IS necessary. Do it and do it now. I cannot stress that enough.

Let me know if you have any other questions or want to discuss - I'll try to monitor this thread over the next week or so.....

Good luck. it's worth it in the end. It hasn't taken as long for my relationship with my husband to improve as it has for many other people. Maybe that's because, like you, his "addiction" wasn't so debilitating or severe. But it was hard, and it was worth it. I wish you the best.....

I'm semi-lost. Do you have a porn addiction or do you view it on occasion?

I realize that if it's hurtful to your wife, it's hurtful to your wife. But is porn something that you can simply quit watching or is it something you really need?

You will not win back your wife's heart and self-esteem by minimizing your usage because "you only bought two magazines back in 1997" - that's like the bar gave you free beers so you're not an alcoholic.

Add up the hours of time you could have spent paying attention to her that you gave to the women in porn sites instead.

How can she ever trust when you touch her or look at her and make foreplay overtures to her that you're not fantasizing about one of "THOSE" other women in your mind - she will never know and unless you change your attitude toward the true nature of your violation of your marriage vows with porn, you will not even begin to win back her trust.

Yes, your wife needs to develop some boundaries around other men - but what's in it for her to do that - you don't have healthy boundaries about viewing other women; you are not faithful to her with your eyes, so why should she bother?

You defied her request for POJA on something that was in fact tearing apart your marriage. It could have been something else, but you maintained a selfish part in the marriage.

Own it. Stop minimizing it just because "you didn't pay for it". So what?

Get an accountability partner who is another male who is tough enough to not pander to "it's just a little porn" idea that society has. You must not burden your wife with your 12 step process. Believe me - my husband used to confess every porn slip to me - not a good thing.

Please please please recognize that in what you've written here, you are still minimizing and failing to recognize the magnitude of harm you have done. My husband started into porn when he was a child. Any time he touches me "differently" I wonder where he got that idea from - you know this isn't good. So admit you have a problem and get yourself to a 12 step meeting.

The above posts about how porn hs affcted them ae very powerful. You didn't come here asking if it was okay to sexually view a woman owhter than your wife. This is not a porn debate. You asked for help in regaining your wife's trust. Take the above two ladies' advice about owning it and getting a counselor. Anyone who knows something hurts their spouse in this way and keeps on doing it DOES need a counselor.

As far as your wife's friendship, yes, that was definietly dangerous. Any woman who is in a vulnerable situation should steer clear of opposite sex interaction. But since you are here, concentrate on you. You will be so thankful you did down the road when your marriage is restored.

CM, hopefully you understand by now this is a lie? The reason your wife has affairs is because she has no boundaries. Its real simple. You could be meeting all the needs in the world, and if she has terrible boundaries, she could continue having affairs. Your wife is a serial cheater and this has nothing to do with your failure to meet needs. I agree your porn use has harmed the marriage, but nothing close to the damage your W has caused with her serial cheating.

In order for your marriage to ever recover, she will have to make dramatic changes in her own behavior. That means guarding her boundaries and never allowing other men to meet her needs.

Does your whole family know she climbed into bed with your own brother, CM? That is utterly despicable and they should all know it so your female relatives can guard their husbands from your wife. She is dangerous to marriages and women need to know this. Exposing this fact to others may help your wife wake up.

Is your brother married and if so, does his wife know?

Most importantly, she should NEVER be around your brother again. How very sad she has done this to you. This is horrendous abuse, CM, and my heart goes out to you.

an excerpt from Requirements for Recovery:

here

While I agree the porn use is a problem, it is a DISTRACTION from the real problem, and that is her serial cheating. Focusing solely on unmet needs is a mistake and a distraction. BS's usually try to find a way to blame themselves for the affair so they feel more in control. It would be a mistake to give into this temptation, CM, because it is a distraction from the REAL PROBLEM.

Unless and until that addressed [not by blameshifting] you are looking at affairs #5 and #6.

I suspect that your unconditional "forgiveness" [forgiveness with no repentance] is what has led you to this recent affair. And it will keep on going if you don't stop this madness. Forgiveness should be reserved for cases where there is real repentance, and that has not happened.

Your situation SCREAMS for what Dr Harley calls "Just Compensation." That is the only way you will turn this around.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Soolee,

Wow, those numbers put things in a different perspective. Life is short and to think that I have not only wasted 15 days but spent 15 days worth of time hurting my wife is a discusting thought.

Catperson,
Yes, actually I knew her very well. We have been friends since Jr High and together since High School. We grew up together if you will. Having been through issues before I have studied her every move and know better than anyone in this world what makes her tick. I just stopped doing it. Between working the end of the Fiscal Year (I manage budgets) and refurbishing a rental house to get it on the market before the holidays and 3 kids being shuttled in every direction many nights a week, I have just stopped putting her first. I know what to do I just haven't been doing it. THEN you add the P issue on top of the needs not being met and you end up where we are.

I wasn't trying to say she is just "pretty" I was saying from the outside she HONESTLY has no reason to have a low self-esteem. But yes I WAS doing all of those things, I guess I just stopped.

Y_R_WeSoDiff

We have spent two days now crying and talking, I can't imagine how a counselor could help me get it any more than I do now. I own the fact of what my betrayal has done. For the first time I FEEL the pain that this has caused her. I haven't felt that before 2 days ago. I get it and I've commited to MYSELF to never access P again. BUT if a couselor is what she needs to see in order for her to heal more quickly I'm on board. she and I are discussing this even as we speak. I actually like the idea of an accountability partner.

kilted_thrower,

I HONESTLY do not feel like I'm addicted. I can take it or leave it. Am I going to have to control myself when I'm on the computer for legit reasons? Sure. But I don't NEED porn, and I never have. It gave me a momentary high and I truly believed it was only harmfull to me. Yes I knew she didn't want to watch it, but to me at the time it was the same as she didn't want me to use profanity around the kids, or she didn't want me to wear a green paisely shirt with my striped shorts, she didn't like it. I get now that what she meant was "this habbit of yours is KILLING the way I look at myself and after 14 years when you look at me sexually all I can think of is that you're imagining one of those OTHER girls". I have even said on a few occasions, "let's try this position it looked like fun". To my thick skull I REALLY didn't get that that would hurt her! Now I see that it would be the same as her saying "let's try this position, it felt really good when (insert name) did it to me". For the first time I GET IT. For 14 years, in her mind (and thats all that really counts), I have been having an affair. A blatent in your face affair.

KaylaAndy,

Thank you for your post, I own it, I'm not minimizing it, I own it. I just want to fix the hurt.

lurioosi2,

You make a great point. I did know I was hurting her and acting against her wishes. Very simple to the point fact and it will come up in couseling.

MelodyLane,

Your insight is immeasurable, and I thank you for it. The family doesn't know and doesn't need to. The issue with my brother was resolved in our '04 recovery and we have all healed from it. It didn't change that it happened but we all discussed the cause, effects and solutions and moved forward. She has proven to me her trust with my brother.

I agree with most everything else you've said and apprecite you saying it because she has been following this thread and needed to hear it from someone other than me. Your statements of her being a "serial cheater" and "a danger to marriages" has affected her in a way I haven't seen in a long time. It's also very reassuring for me to hear as well that I'm NOT the only one with problems here. I feel some times that not only do I own my problems but I'm supposed to own hers also. I've told her everytime an A issue came up that I can only take the blame for the way I treated her. I didn't pick up the phone and call these guys and offer her to them. SHE did that, she made that decision. and I really think that she has always ultimately blamed me and justified that in her mind. It's good for her to hear this from you.

As for the forgiveness issue. I DO forgive her and will continue to forgive her. Now lets look at what that means to me. As a Christian (I know great examples of Christians huh) I know that every time I screw up and I pray for forgivness it is granted. Even though God in his wisdom KNOWS that I'm going to screw up again! Even as Christ hung on the cross and was beaten, spat upon, mocked and died, he said " Father FORGIVE them; for they know not what they do". Am I God? I act like I thnk I am some times, but NO, I'm not. Will I forgive and forget and just let her off of the hook? NO! But I also can't see a "way ahead" if I hold off on my fogiveness. I can't work on fixing the problem if I don't emotionaly release it. To just hold onto it seems counter-productive to me. I'm a problem solver, once the the problem is identifed I want to get about the business of fixing it.

I truly believe her request for forgiveness was presented with true repentence in '04. She has just let her guard down again. Is that because I stopped meeting her needs? Yes, my fault. But did she AGAIN make a wrong decision? Yes, her fault. We are spending the weekend at the beach without the kids unloading all of this so when we go to see our pastor on Monday we have a better understanding of what our problems really are.