I've been reading this forum for a few months. I just have to courage to post because I really need some help and don't know where to go. Sorry it's so long, I'm trying to get it all out there.

We've been married for 15 months and have a 1 year old. We've known each other since high school, when we dated for a few months but broke up because he was also seeing other women.

We reconnected romantically after I had a breakup about 3 years ago. Little by little, I found that he lied about some aspects of his life and relationships over the years. I was going to end it, but my father passed away and he was my only help during that time. Plus, I moved back home to take care of my mom. My mom and I never really got along and she kicked me out on a whim, so I went to stay with him.

After going through more EAs and As on his end and an eventual A on my part, he decided that we should end all As and commit to each other. We were going to get married this year (09), but I got pregnant, so we got married earlier. I know it wasn't the best situation, but what's done is done.

Since I've been married, the EAs have started back up again (can't prove any physical As). He has secret friends that I'm not "allowed" to talk about. I find my information by snooping. I hate snooping, but it's the only way I can get information and protect my family, since he actually visits these friends with my daughter. Admittedly, he's slowed down in the past month, but I don't know if it's because he's recommitting to this marriage or because we are planning for a transition after I get laid off.

He forbade me from having any male friends, but I reconnected with a couple of college friends and we talk on the phone occassionally. It's not on a EA level, but he insists it is, even though I'm totally upfront about my communication with my male friends.

When I had to get rid of my male friends before, he pushed some of his female friends on me as my "new" friends, once I found out about them. I wasn't ever really comfortable...they never felt like my true friends because they ran to him with all their problems.

To add to all of this, I'm the only person working since my husband got laid off a year ago. I don't mind, but he abdicates responsibility for any decisions yet criticizes me for my decisions afterwards. I tried POJA, but he will not explicitly agree to anything. It's always "Whatever you want to do, moneybags".

I tried figuring out his needs, since he won't have anything to do with the exercises in the book. However, even if I try to fulfill his needs, he brings up an example from the previous years about how I used to be or how I just started and it won't last. He refuses to fill my needs most of the time, even if I explicitly ask for them. He claims that I ask for stuff at the wrong time or declares some stuff "silly" (like cuddling)

I know one thing with him--I believe he's insecure about his place in life. We are both getting close to 30, and he's still in college and I've graduated with a Masters and I'm a few years into my career. I honestly don't even bring up my job or degrees, but he makes a big deal about it. Also, whenever we're around other people, he makes up lies or hyperboles about himself to make himself look better.

I don't even know where to start to try to save this marriage, if it is even possible. My needs aren't being met and he refuses to discuss anything in a adult matter. I'm so stressed and tired, and I cry every day because he is so unreasonable about everything in our life. I haven't even scratched the surface of our daily arguments.

Help

Hi and welcome. Wonderful that you have a Master's Degree, I must say. That's quite an accomplishment and gives us some much needed information in terms of your options in life.

I do think that your post might be better off in another forum here - possibly surviving an affair. You can click on the 'notify' button at the bottom of your post, and ask a moderator to transfer it there.

In the meantime, MB concepts are hard to implement when affairs are present, even EAs. MB concepts call for any and all contact with affair partners to be 'no contact'. That's going to mean that your husband won't really be invested in the marriage until he cuts off contact with these women, and the same with you, with men. These 'friends' are meeting needs that each of you have that, in turn, make communication and honesty between the two of you not such a high priority.

Have you printed off the LB questionnaires? Have you read all the concepts? That would be a good place to start.

Please notify the Mods (there is a little notify box on the bottom of each post) And ask them to move this to "Surviving An Affair" in the infidelity forums.

You will get the help you need there.

or you can just copy it and re-post it as a new thread over there yourself

You don't have a marriage. You married a second child.

If you ever want him to grow up, you will have to set some hard rules that he will have to live by, or leave.

Bottom line. He's immature and a Taker, and he probably doesn't know any better.

Go read "The Dance of Anger" first, and then tell us what you got out of it. It's a short book, quick read.

Finally, if you are paying all the bills, cut off all the phones except the land line and YOUR cell phone. Cut off the Internet. Cut off his credit cards. If he's not watching the baby, cut off payment for his car. Cut off the cable; your baby shouldn't be watching TV anyway. Provide only what YOU want in terms of food and anything else for the home. In other words, stop being his Sugar Momma.

It's the best cure I know of for getting a lazy selfish guy off his butt.

Oh, and stop ALL contact with any other men. Period.

Thanks! I notified the mods.

ETA: I just saw catperson's reply. I really do feel like I have a second child. I just feel so stupid because he lied about taking care of his business and I'm finding out that was not the case. We are down to the minimum already because we downsized when I found out I was getting laid off. I have to figure out what to do with my cell phone because I moved to a family plan with him under his name (of course I'm paying for it now).

I guess I will have to stop contact with my male friends again. I mean, these were my closest friends for quite a few years before I got back into this relationship 3 years ago. But I guess if he sees them as a threat... What are the rules for friends of the opposite sex?

ETA again: I have read the Basic Concepts and printed out materials for myself and my husband. He refuses to talk about it and didn't want to fill out the questionnaire. I tried it myself and he did note some improvements, but he hasn't really budged in fulfilling my needs or stopping his love busters. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I'm trying.

Water,

I have read your post, but I am not convinced that you really want your marriage to recover.

I hear what you are saying, and yes it is tuff to work on your marriage single handed.

What have the two of you done, to resolve the cheating that you both have been guilty of?

Did you work the program at all?

What about your affair, did you come clean, open and honest, has he done the same?

What boundaries have you setup for him?

He seems to have you on a short a leash, but what is he doing while you are working?

This problem is about communication and there is really nothing productive going on at this point.

Have you been truthful about the way you feel, or are you two just fighting it out daily?

Your husband is not being very kind right now that is for sure.

But, do you honestly feel, that you are not setting this thing up for him to fail again?

I mean to say, you hold all the cards here, why not setup some boundaries, and guidelines that he must follow. Of course you would be held to similar boundaries. Stick to it, make it happen.

Explain why these boundaries our needed and that it is the only way you can recover. Explain that you do not want your marriage to end, that you want to work this out and recover your marriage. Have serious talk heart to heart.

Please do all of these things before, the ultimatum that was suggested.

Be well

Jeeping

Thank you Jeeping.

Honestly, sometimes I do just want to give up because it's so hard. I do love him and we do have some good times...but it's difficult with him. He will argue with me about anything, even if I'm doing something nice. That's really tough to deal with and totally different from anything I've ever experienced in a relationship.

Like I said, I tried some aspects of the program. I know I have deficiencies and I've been working on them. I've been working on my appearance and my weight, and I try to help around the house more. The hard part are the love busters, because I have angry outbursts related to when he attacks me. It's hard to not have an outburst when someone attacks you for no reason.

For example, last night, I heard a noise in the closet. We live in a (cheap) basement apartment and have come across weird creatures crawling around. I called for him to check the closet. He came in and made a snide comment that oh well, if something were in the closet, it would come out and attack me since my clothes are in the way of closing the closet. He didn't check, didn't move the clothes (neither did I, admittedly) and just turned off the light and went back to what he was doing. He makes little comments like that all the time and claims he doesn't mean anything by it. I tell him that those comments hurt my feelings and he just shrugs his shoulders.

We both completely know about each other's previous affairs. Well, I told him about mine and I had to snoop to find out all the details about his. He claims that since I didn't keep notes or pictures, and he didn't get to talk to the other guy, that he has no idea what went on or if I was/am lying and holds that against me.

I guess my problem is that I'm trying to set boundaries but retroactively. He always has a reason to speak to other women (like for his "business") and he asks for privacy even though I found him sending racy notes to women on myspace. He claims that since he doesn't access to my information (I gave him my passwords, but he claims he never checks) he won't ever know if I send out the same messages to people.

Even when we both promised not to talk to anyone of the opposite sex, he did anyway in secret and claimed that he had no way of checking if I did (I didn't, honestly).

I don't know how to successfully have a heart to heart with him. I've tried talking to him, but he gives me the silent treatment, deflects by attacking me personally, or sidesteps questions. This is even for simple stuff like what to eat or what to do for the day. He makes everything so difficult. Sometimes I just don't even ask him and just go about my day, but then there's the communication problem.

I have to sign off for now, but I will be back. I appreciate everyone's replies.

There's a book you might want to read. It's called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft. I think it would give you a LOT of information on what you're dealing with.

I'm not saying he's abusive or mean. But the book covers guys who just...USE. They've lived their lives by using people, manipulating, guilting, dropping responsibility, making you feel like you OWE him your allegiance and financial support and such.

It might help.

This guy does not need (or want) a wife in the conventional sense. He wants a mother to take care of his "room" and an allowance so he can live his adolescent lifestyle.

You are smart, well educated, can do, and deserve, much better.

Lose this guy and find someone mature enough to fully engage in a relationship.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Water,

I still say boundaries are your best option.

It does not matter at this point to try and POJA with a person that does not want to try.

Setup the boundaries that you can live with. Explain to your husband what the consequences will be if he decides to continue his ways.

This will allow you to feel better and more control of the situation but at the same something productive is happening.

I agree as I said before, he is not treating you fairly.

However his behavior did not happen overnight.

If in fact you have tolerated it for a long time, why should he change now?

You will have to be tuff with him and expect him to pull his weight, treat you better and so on.

Even if you cannot talk about it, put it in writing. Give him a copy with a deadline, and if he doesn't like it tuff.

You do what you can do... work the program. Try to get him involved maybe in ways you have not considered before.

You seem to be a strong woman, and it strikes me as odd that you have allowed this from him.

Just keep in mind that if he is not listening to you and cutting you off, an adult conversation may not be possible.

Put it in writing and give it to him.

Good luck

Jeeping

Ok, I can respond to everyone now...

catperson-I tried checking out the The Dance of Anger. My ebook wouldn't load at home so I will try it at work so I can read it. I already have read Why Does He Do That many times over the past few months. I do feel like he's borderline abusive but trying to leave him has been hard because of my current situation (which I will get into later)

Thanks for your comment shattered dreams.

Jeeping-I guess I need to put my boundaries in writing. He has slowed down talking with other women in the past month, but he's still very mean and stubborn as ever.

I guess for a clearer background, this is probably the worst relationship I've been in. And the timing of it is so bad that somehow I got married. Not to absolve myself of any blame, but I was in a free-fall when my dad passed away. Which was right around the time I was seeing through him and pretty much haven't spoken to him in a few weeks. Yet, he was there, and it was a really tough time. My dad was there for me and supported me going out of state for school. My mom and I never really got along and I also moved out of state to be away from her influence because she didn't really support anything I ever did.

So my dad passed away suddenly in July 07. My family pressured me to move back home since I was the youngest and least established. I found a job back home, but it was impossible to live with my mom, and after she got her $$, she kicked me out. So I moved in with bf, although we already had issues. And we've been on this rollercoaster ever since.

Every time I want to break up or leave, he plays nice. And I know it's not totally real. Or something catastrophic happens. Many times he's shown that he's not really committed to change. The only thing keeping me from divorce is my daughter, and not in the "keep the family together" sense.

See, by losing my job, I have to seek employment. And, one, the job market is crummy in this area, and two, I hate living in this area, that's another reason why I moved away. I only came back to help my mom, who has since moved out of state with one of my brothers. I'm looking for a job in a different area, but H indicates that if I try to divorce now, he will not let me take my daughter out of state.

So, I'm just trying to wait it out, we can both move to a different state (I don't really care), and then, after I get residency, start with the divorce. It's not really sneaky because I told him I will do exactly this if things don't get better. And he doesn't appear to care either way. He's never moved from this city in his life.

On the plus side, he's excellent with our daughter and takes care of her while I'm at work. He's also decent in school and actually trying to finish his degree instead of lollygagging like he was the past 9 years or so. He's way better at domestic support than I could ever be. I've never seen anyone clean so perfectly so fast. He has OCD tendencies so he does obsess over cleaning and little details.

Oh yeah, I finally dragged him to do the emotional needs questionnaire last night. It took him until 2am and he thought it was stupid and pointless, but it's done. But it's very interesting. Most of his needs I could gauge, and it did sting to hear about some areas.

I know I can improve my domestic support area and it's well known, but according to the hours that he set for things, he wants me to give 8 hours to cleaning and watching the baby, maybe one hour or less of conversation, and nothing really for recreational companionship (he says we can't do that if I don't clean) and nothing at all for affection.

However, when I pointed this stuff out to him yesterday and today, he goes back into criticizing me, accusing me of having an affair, or telling me I need to go find someone that will fulfill my needs because he surely won't. I told him plainly that he's mean and condescending, and he said, oh well, find someone who isn't.

I'm not sure if all of this could be cured by just fulfilling his needs. I guess I could try harder though. His first need is domestic support. The thing is, though, I've upped my domestic support when I first started this website. But it's still not up to his level. But I try to explain it's like going from 0 to 10. It's really difficult for me to maintain a clutter-free place. Where we live is the cleanest place I've ever lived in my life. Plus, when I see a cluttered area, I feel overwhelmed. I don't know where to start and it can take hours where it would take him minutes. But I can try the 8 hour thing.

The second thing is family commitment. I admit that it is overwhelming to have a toddler and I do check out sometimes. But we don't have a babysitter, because H doesn't trust her with anyone except his mother. And they have had bad blood for about 3 months and are just reconciling. Sometimes I do need a break and I may check out at "inappropriate" times. But he does the same thing. I tried to explain to him that my need for "me" time is different from his. His "me" time consists of going out to the club. I really have no desire to go out to the club, just being able to sleep uninterrupted for an hour would be nice. Or just being by myself, at home, for an hour. But he gets so mad when I ask for me time and tells me to go out to the club (and find somebody, of course).

His other need is financial commitment. It's funny that he wants me to make twice as much as what I make now. WTH. He's always mentioning my degree and skills and say that I should be making so much more. After my layoff, I wanted a break to get myself together because I have had mini-breakdowns during this job and want to start a new job fresh. I can wager that my relationship with him has much to do with my stress at work, as sometimes (like today) I come in crying and upset already (nobody know that, of course, I just hide in my cube for a while). He's pushing off making his "big money" until he graduates. It looks like a duck (user) to me, even though he insists he's not.


His next need is sexual fulfillment. I find this "interesting", because he has a high need for sexual relations and wants it 4x a week, and he claims he's satisfied and it's good. However, in reality, we only have sex maybe once or twice a month, and he's turned me down for sex. I'm not trying to read into it because I know he watches porn maybe every night, but, like I said, I find it "interesting".

His 5th need is admiration. Even though he rated it low in the questionnaire, I suspected that this was a high need when I first read this site. I don't know how to show him admiration though, because most of what I say falls flat, and he outright accuses me of lying about it. But I know it's a high area, because, like I said, he makes up stuff about himself to get others to say "wow" about him. I need more investigation until this.

Two other needs that were interesting to me but didn't reach the top 5 were attractive and honesty and openness. He rated his satisfaction in both of these areas -3, but claimed they weren't important (especially the attraction). I guess I need to figure out if I really need to work on these areas.

Well, sorry so long again, I'm just trying to get everything covered and it literally took me most of the morning to type this.

Thanks for your help so far.

As another poster said, this man is not married. He's just a guy who has a wife, whom he mostly treats as a mommy, or maybe a boss with an at-home live-in employee. He doesn't want or need anything else from you, and the odds of him changing are practically zero.

He's made it clear that he is not interested in having an equal partnership. He sees you only as a mommy or as an employee, and he cannot fathom why that would be a problem for you.

He is using every passive-aggressive trick in the book to keep you off balance and out of the way. Here is a lengthy MB thread that may help you: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=622389&page=1

He also sounds like a sex addict to me. I believe my XWH was the same way - he would not and could not stop with the office girls and the strippers and the porn and the on-line gamer women even as it destroyed our family and 25-year marriage. I couldn't even go shopping or to dinner with him anymore because he would just *have* to flirt with the salesgirl or the the waitress and get that zing of attention from her.

It was sickening. Makes you feel like garbage. It really does.

Sex addiction is very real and it's no joke. Google the website known as recoverynation. I think you will see that your husband is the poster boy for this kind of stuff.

Sorry to say that there is no way you can make your WH want to be married - and you can't be married by yourself. I'd suggest checking out the passive-aggressive thread and recoverynation, and then I think you will have a much clearer picture of what you are really dealing with.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan, I'll check the thread and the website out.

Well, I actually did read the book. A few times. My family isn't going to help me (I asked and they said I'm making stuff up) and only one friend offered a couch. I went over there one day but I don't really have anyone to watch her during the day (family left town) so I had to go back.

I was basically tied to this job for 6 months waiting for my severance because I have no savings. I prefer not to leave *** out because that's not how I came into this. I've been to DV counseling at a local shelter, and I got turned off after calling there for help and the operator asked me if I was on drugs or suffer from psychosis (I do have depression, but I'm not on drugs)--I guess because I was so keyed up and upset and talking so fast.

When I did DV counseling, they talked about making a plan--and my plan was going out of state first because if I start a divorce in the state of Ohio, I have to stay here until it's finished. So, my plan was to leave, give it six months, and file. I've already set the date and showed it to him. Like I said, I told him I'm not starting a divorce here because I'm not going to stay here and I'm not going to have to ask him permission to move out of the state whenever he actual feels like finishing the divorce.

I was trying to see (before the date) if there was anything that I didn't try, or left out, because I know he's going to say that I didn't try. Some days he'll claim that it will be quick and amicable, but I'm not leaving with his daughter. Yeah, I know a lot of people don't follow through with threats but I've seen enough divorces recently where people are stuck while the other person drags their heels and files motions, etc. He can do that down south--I don't really care.

So yeah, it's not like I don't really know what's up--I just prefer my own pace since I'm alone in this.

I am a bit confused now.

Your first post and thread is HELP, save my marriage.

However like I said in my first post, I am not sure you want to.

Now that I have read the rest of the thread, it seems you are really looking for the best exit strategy?

Help me here?