Lizzy2 - My BH also lacked in the affection department. The 'hug and get naked' comment resonated, but strangely since the A that has changed. For my part, I started to work harder to meet his need for SF even when I didn't feel like it. He got his fullfillment and eventually I was getting mine more often too. Now, when we're in a good place the affection is there as long as I'm meeting his SF. In doing so, I actually came to enjoy meeting that need for him 1 - because it made him feel good and 2 - his feeling good made me feel good and that translated into the bedroom, IYKWIM!

Lizzy2: I'm wondering why you don't think you have a right to ask for anything? I don't agree with that at all. I realize that you feel rightfully guilty for your actions, but that doesn't mean that your M should become all give and no take. If you truly want your M to recover, then there has to be give and take on both ends. You shouldn't have to give up the hope of having your EN's met by your H. In fact, if you do, the likelihood that your M will not truly R at all is very great. You may end up in another A because you have accepted the fact that you have no right to have your EN's met because of what you have done. Go back and re-read SAA, because I really don't think Dr. Harley supports what you are saying here at all.

I have a few questions.

Is the OM better looking than your BH?

Are you physicaly atracted to your BH?

Does the idea of providing you BH with SF discust or put you off?

You had a 4yr physical affair with a man, your husband knew OM was getting regularly from you what he (your BH) wanted most from you but you denied him...... And he just put up with it?

Is it possable that what made SF more pleasing to you was the wrongness and excitement of it all...IE the "Bad Boy" affect?

Have YOU sought out counselling for YOU about your issues?



Even without answering these questions I can tell you this.
If your BH'S # emotional need is SF, (as most mens are) and you cant provide him with this at a frequency that is acceptable to him. And with genuine enthusiasum....

Then ultamatly your marriage is doomed.

However, Dr. Harley has a saying... Fake it till ya Make it.

Stop sitting around asking "Why wont BH take care of my needs, so maybee I might feel like taking care of his"

Start taking care of his needs, wich is SF (And it may mean, "here is a hug, lets get naked") and see, if maybee, just maybee, BH starts automatically meeting your needs for affection and conversation (Typically a womans #1 need)

Okay everyone I get that I have to meet his needs so that he can meet mine. I was doing that before my A. I met his needs for SF, even when I wasn't in the mood. I met his need for recreational companionship. I fulfilled all of his EN's - he was not fulfilling mine. He freely admits that. MY love bank was over flowing for him. But his continually kept losing points as he did not try to meet any of my needs. At the time I did not know about MB so I tried to talk with him about what I felt was lacking, he would change for a day or so, then back to old habits. He is not a bad person, he just didn't see how important it was for me since he was feeling great about everything. Now that I made the mistake of having the A, it is hard for me to say this is what I need because everyone here says that he has been so wronged and betrayed that he won't be able to meet them now anyway - at least not for a while. I see that as putting us right back to step 1. I am again meeting his needs except for SF because we both agree we do not want me to fake it as I did before my A. We want it to be genuine. Which means he needs to build up units in his Love bank - which was my original question.
Gack1 - my H is very nice looking (could use a little exercise, but couldn't we all). Was the OM better looking? No. Am I physically attracted to my H? I used to be, and some days more so than others. Right now thinking about SF with him does put me off. I have been working on DR Harley's ideas of imagining being with him without really being with him - it is helping a little. Yes, my H put up with it. He told me a couple of times to move out or stop the A. He never forced the issue. I made several false recoveries as I said before only to find myself so depressed - not realizing it was withdrawl - and I would go back to OM. And yes, it is possible that it was the "bad boy" syndrome that made sex with OM fulfilling - I have often wondered that myself. Yes, I have sought couselling for myself.

Would anyone liks a shot of good ol' justification??

Lizzy ~ I've read your thread and it SCREAMS of justification.

If it's this obvious on a forum full of people who don't know you, I am sure it's glaringly obvious to your H. And if you want a quick way to drain his lovebank, well, this is a GREAT way to do that.

If you were meeting all of his ENs as well as you say you were, you wouldn't have had an A. Period.

Now, if you are ready to stop justifying and telling us all how well you meet his ENs, we can get to work. But it kinda sounds like you don't need us, you meet your husband's ENs so well and always have.

<shrug> So...I am confused.

Good

Ok

What changes?

Why?

Exactly what turns you off about the idea of SF with your BS?
Don't say you dont know, becouse you do. You may may not want to admit it to yourself, but you do know what is causing this.


That seems hard to belive.

You have sought counselling, but are you activly seeing a counseller now and trying to resolve this issue?

I agree 100%

I also hear Entitlement and resentment for her husband.

I hope I misunderstand the meaning of this, because as I'm reading it I totally disagree.

I had a neglectful husband. I didn't know about MB back then but I knew somebody had to change first and since was the unhappy party I figured I may as well change and I hoped that would entice him to change.

I went an entire year without turning him down once for SF; it was my "Just say Yes" campaign. I worked full time (making as much as he did), I did the house cleaning, I fed and bathed the kids, I tucked them in, I packed the diaper bag for daycare the next day. I did the laundry. I went to as many of his work-related events as I could (he was a band director) and brought the kids when appropriate. I set up date nights and arranged a babysitter. I busted my tail.

He was happy as a clam and I was miserable. When I brought it up to him, and asked if we could go to counseling, his response was "Go if you want to".

I was ripe for an A, and I knew it. Even though I didn't know what ENs were back then, I think I was doing a pretty good job of meeting his.

Now I'll admit that Lizzy's view of her wonderful self and her lazy husband might be biased. But it might not be. And clearly she was ripe for an affair, too.

I'm sorry you all feel I am trying to justify my actions - I am not. I have been answering the questions you all asked - the best I can. The answers that I gave about my meeting his EN's were based on conversations with my DH - he agrees that I was meeting his EN's - I wish he were here to tell you that he said that but he is not. In fact he told me less than a month ago that "even if we don't have sex again (he would really like to) but if we don't he just wants to be together, he is not miserable. D is not in his language." His words people, not mine!!!!!
I don't want to go around repeating all the details of my A - I want to move on from that - you all keep asking questions relating to it so I am answering them. I want to make things work with my H - he wants to make things work with me. My original question was.... I rarely felt fulfilled in my sexual encounters prior to my A, with anyone!!! - I want to feel that with my H. Is it possible to reach SF with someone you never felt that way about before. What do I need to do to find that "woman" inside me?
Gack - you asked what puts me off so much about SF with my H. It is the fact that for close to 8 years I gave sex freely to him because I thought it was my duty as his wife. I rarely enjoyed it. It became a chore. Why was it a chore? I already told you but you all tell me it is just me making justifications for my behavior. Neither he nor I want it to be like that again. I do not know how to teach him how to be affectionate and communicative so that we can reach SF... together!!!

Thanks Turtlehead - Glad someone else can identify.

Lizzy I can understand how SF can become a chore. I'm the BS in my sitch, but my WXH sounds like you describe yours. For him, SF=affection, and he was not very affectionate. And affection was one of my top ENs, though I didn't know about ENs at the time. Obviously by the "X", you can tell that I didn't resolve this. I didn't cheat, but what I did was also wrong. So for what NOT to do, here's what I did.

At first I complained. He would say we aren't newlyweds anymore and I should grow up and act my age. Then I complained more and he said I was nagging. To shut me up, he said he'd be affectionate during SF. The trouble was, he thought the actual act of sex was affection, while I did not. I wish I knew about MB then because in reality, we were both right but at the time we were both stubborn. In the last 10 years of my M, if he touched me anywhere other than my boobs or my crotch, it was by accident. He last held my hand pre-1995. The SF he had with me could have been easily done with a blow-up doll. Heck yes, it was a chore.

So I made the next mistake - I figured since he wouldn't budge on the affection, I wasn't going to trade SF (chore) for what he termed affection. I didn't outright deny him - because sometimes it was quicker and easier to just get it over with - but I would go to bed earlier than him and generally just not make myself available to him. Before I knew it, we hardly ever had it anymore.

Mistake number 3: I still had an unmet top EN and felt a great deal of dissatisfaction in my M as a result. This is where a wayward begins to justify their cheating. What I did instead was immerse myself in other things - my career, my hobbies, my son's activities etc. I actually ended up with a very fulfilling, satisfied life that I enjoyed very much. Somewhere along the way I resigned myself to an affectionless marriage and though once in a while it brought me down, for the most part I could live with it. In other words, I developed a very independent lifestyle - no SF, no affection, just shared responsibilities for our house and DS. Heck, sometimes days would go by that we wouldn't even see each other - just communicate by notes on the fridge (e.g. buy milk).

Can you see how that would create a scenario where he might be vulnerable to an affair?

Despite it all, I was shocked that he actually had one. But I see it now. I do wish I knew about MB way back in my initial complaining days. He would not have agreed to see a counsellor, but from what I've read, the Harleys can guide you through solutions to these problems. Had I called back then, I'm sure I wouldn't have made all those other mistakes. They could have helped my first of all understand that to him, SF really did equal affection and that for me to get him to expand on it, I needed a way to communicate my ENs in a way he could understand.

Sorry for the long-winded un-answer, but as I do believe this was central to my marital breakdown, I do think you should consult the Harleys on this.

Sorry you disagree, turtlehead, but I stand by my statement.

Here on MB we talk ALOT about "feelings following actions". This is TRUE, not the other way around. The other way around leads to AFFAIRS.

Additionally, Lizzy was NOT meeting her H's need for O&H. She was not meeting using the PORH. She was NOT delivering "extraordinary care", as Dr. Harley tells us marriages MUST be based on this. IF she was, she would not have had an affair.

Lizzy, are you being HONEST with your H about what you like and dislike in your SF relationship?

I am sure this can be horribly hard, humiliating and embarrassing. But I have a strong feeling that you are not being completely honest with your H when you have SF with him ~ if you do love him like you say you do, you enjoy meeting his ENs, but STILL don't like SF with him, could it ben<the dreaded word>...technique???

This may be resentment, and probably a little (or a lot) of history re-righting.

I would expect nothing less from you, I enjoy your posts and insights quite a lot. You don't say something unless you've thought it through.

For a while, and then the giver gets "all gave out" and the taker becomes super resentful. At least, mine did. In my case, meeting of my XH's ENs didn't make me any less susceptible to an affair, it just made me resentful.

Thinking back, you might be right. I may have felt more loving when I first acted more loving.. but it's been so long now (17 years) that I don't really remember for sure. I do know that in my case I went on giving too long and it damaged me. All I can remember is the seething resentment, and anguish that I did not matter and that I could not change things by myself.

TOTALLY agree about PORH and extraordinary care. Also POJA, though you didn't mention it.

Lizzy, have you and your H ever had real counseling? Wherein you sit together and discuss with the counselor what YOU needed in the marriage? Wherein he answered WHY he felt no need to meet those needs of yours? I think we need to get to THIS part of your situation first.

I think it was unfair of you to fake it all those years. Perhaps if you had really brough your dissatisfaction with SF to your husband's attention, he would have made the effort to improve. Same with the lack of affection.
I know many folks think they really did all they could do. But, you never utilized the divorce or seperation options before cheating. If you had, he may have awakened.
I find it hard to believe that if he is relly a good man, as you describe, he would have blown you off if he was made aware of the severityof your dissatisfaction.
Why did you not insist on counseling, or tell him you were getting ready to leave him or that you were contemplating an affair? How could he know you were so unhappy unless you showed him emphatically?

Zelmo, I hope you aren't replying to me because I didn't cheat. I did, however, handle the problem the wrong way. I wrote my post so that perhaps Lizzie could learn something from it - if nothing else what NOT to do

No, I was directing that to Lizzy. Don't know your sitch.

Thanks for all the responses - here goes the answer session!
Tabby - glad I am not alone your information has been extremely helpful! I too wish I had known about MB years ago! Things would definately have turned out different - but now we are trying to change our ending to a positive conclusion for all!
Gack - yes I am working on re-righting history - I am finding out I made a lot of mistakes, my A only being one of them.
Married - you hit on a very important point for me and my H. As I have said he is very introverted - almost shy when it comes to talking about sex and sexual needs. I fell into his not wanting to talk about such things, tried to push it under the rug - I have been trying to change that as well. Talking about such intimate subjects is not easy for either of us. We were brought up in strict households where sex was taboo (until after marriage of course) but none the less it made a huge impact on how we handled ourselves together - slowly we are coming out of our proverbial shells and opening up more discussion. Very hard and sometimes humiliating but necessary none the less.
Also, you pointed out I was not meeting O&H and PORJ &POJA but I didn't know MB then - didn't know I was not meeting those needs. My H is the one who told me he was happy and I was fulfilling his needs. That comes straight from him, so I believe him - I don't think we would be together right now if I hadn't done something right early on in our M.
Cat - we did go to counseling a while back. As I said he ended it because he did not want to hear what he had done (I was the unfaithful one, not him) When he got cornered by the counselor to step up and face what he had done to push me away-the counseling ended. We actually talked a little 2 nights ago about trying counselling again so hopefully that door is starting to open up.
Zelmo- I know now that faking it all those years was wrong. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing by being a "good wife" to my H. I didn't want to get into an A - it just "happened" The first chapter of HNHN pretty much sums up my entire existence at that time. I made lots of justifications, and rationalizations. But when you are in the middle of the emotionality of it all, you don't see that. That is why I am working so hard now to "re-right" history.

Just so that what I write won't be misinterpreted, let me say that an affair is absolutely, positiviely, inexcusably wrong. Period.

You mention that you were brought up in a very strict household where sex was taboo until marriage. My H and I were brought up in strict househols as well, although my parents had a pretty health view of sex. I know they enjoyed it. But our church was VERY emphatic on the subject. They were also emphatic about things like submission, sacrificing for others, putting others' needs before your own, etc. All nice in certain situations. But in my reading I have found that some of that is oppositional to MB, though of course I had never even heard of MB then, so how was I supposed to do it? So for years, both of us remained silent, sacrificed, put our needs aside, etc., thinking we were living a godly marriage. We were trying to live what we had heard. And then there was what I call the "God loophole." We are aupposed to rely on God to meet our needs, not another person, so we shouldn't have any expectations of our spouse. You can see how this thinking can twist a marriage when takento the exttme.

I say all that to say that if that sounds like your story, I can see how things drifted farther into peril over the years. No, the affair didn't just happen - it was a choice. But as far as SF goes, ignorance and embarassment are just as likely to be the culprits of your past situation as anything else. But now you HAVE found MB. Now you DO have some tools regarding how to handle the affair aftermath and how to improve your marriage. Use those tools. Find out exactly what your H's EN's are. Avoid lovebusters. Practice PORH. Try phone counseling with the Harley's. And if you feel that resentment creeping in, deal with it. Bitterness will kill you marriage (and sometimes your soul) just as sure as anything else will.