Well I am glad you see these things (and Lizzy I am sorry if this is a slight threadjack, but I think it's fundamentally important to ALL recoveries)...

turtlehead, I hesitated yesterday in saying this to you, but from the response above I feel more comfortable saying it...do you see NOW how you meeting all of your H's needs, doing EVERYTHING for him, going on a "one-year, all-out, "need-meeting" mission" (so to speak), probably actually CONTRIBUTED to your H's entitled attitdue, which in turn led him to feel "entitled" to an A?

<I'll wait a minute here while some of you pick yourselves up off the floor, for I know this is not a popular, or at least much recognized, dynamic of affair recovery.>

It has taken me a very long time, with a lot of reflection to realize that I did this too. Prior to the A and our (not-so-easy) recovery, I did the same things you describe in meeting my H's ENs, except I did it for much longer than a year. In fact, I probably did that for most of our M.

I did much of it with a decent attitude, but I also did alot of it with resentment because I was afraid of his bad attitude if I left it for him or asked him for help.

I thought I was meeting his ENs (even though I didn't know what ENs were at the time), but what I was really doing was trying to manage his feelings for him. And this leads to entitlement. As in, one spouse feeling entitled to feeling good at all costs.

This is a dynamic that CAN easily be confused for EN meeting, but it's a HUGE, HUGE mistake. IMHO, the key to avoiding "teaching" one spouse that entitlement is ok is making sure the the other spouse does not feel resentment when meeting ENs. And of course, that involves using PORH, POJA, etc.

Hope this makes sense because for me, once I realized MY PART in this, I have been much more eager to stop it. And it's been hugely beneficial for my M.

I think you missunderstand.

History re-wrighting/re-righting (However you spell it) is the way a WS justifies there affair. The affair changes there preception of the past and therefore they Re-right history.

A marriage that was good for both before the affair is changed to have been horrable for the WS during and after the affair.

There perception of there own past changes, and to them this is 100% fact. Even when everyone else knows it to be fals.

One common theme is a WS saying that they "Never" loved ther BS. Thats just not true, it is a blatent re-write of history, and usually clears slowly with the fog. But may take years.



Another one, almost allways perpetuated by WW's is "The sex with BH was horrable, I hated it, and never even desired it, I did not think I would ever desire it from anyone. But sex with OM was wonderfull and woke up needs that I never new I had and I will never feel that way about BH"

This, like the other history re-writes, like the Justification, like the entitlement, is all part of the FOG. It eventually clears and the WW sees her sexual past with her BH as it actually was. And usually there past turns out to have been normal, and preaty good for both. But the affair and it's FOG changed there preception of it, untill it was completley purged from there system.

Gack - ohhh sorry I did totally misunderstand - thanks for clarification on your end. My idea of re-righting (which I like better than your idea) is to right what I have wronged. Yours would be re-writing which means changing what was true. To some extent you are correct - however I never said I never loved my H - I know I did. In fact I have journals from our dating and early marriage years that shows how much I loved him. It also shows how much I held inside what I was missing from him. They also show later on in the M the attempts I made at getting him to see what I was missing - what I needed from him. So not all of my perception is "fog" related but I do see your point.

Hi Lizzy, sorry to hear of your troubles. I have not posted since the upgrade or whatever we are calling it, however I have been reading along. I just wanted to ask you a quick question, did you used to post under the name mutedsparkle? I think that was the name anyway...I may be wrong but your sitch and way of writing/thinking seems really similar, also I think she had 2 sons around that age. Just wondering if you are one and the same as I used to follow that thread.

You mention your attempts early in the marriage at showing your husband what you needed from him. Can you share more on how you tried to express these needs to him? I mean..did you come right out and say, "I need a, b, and c". Or was it more telling him when you were arguing or something similar to that? I am interested because some women say that they can talk to their H about their needs until blue in the face and not get a response. I have also heard that once something bad happens, such as an affair, a man will try to make up for whatever he was not giving wife...or w/d altogether. Do you feel your H is trying finally to give you what you need? I notice you say that he is not upset, but has he tried to change these behaviors that pushed you away to begin with in order to prevent another affair?

Hi Happy - I am not the person of which you speak! I was signed on before the crash as Lizzy but all of my thread was lost.
Basically, in the early years of our M I did not voice my frustration at all - kept everything to myself because I didn't think it was that big of a deal and didn't want to hurt his feelings - but over the years as my frustration continued (welling up inside) I knew I had to tell him. Please note, we NEVER argue. People will say that's impossible I know but it is the case - we have never aruged! If my H feels I have done something that annoys him, he keeps it to himself and he says he is over it the next day. I have said "You need to tell me, so I know what bothers you and I can change my behavior" He says, "It's never a big deal and I'm always over it the next day." So little by little I started not knowing who he was because he would not open up. Besides telling him I need to know what he is thinking and feeling I have told him that I needed more "affection." I know on a few occassions I would point out at movies what I liked between the couples on the screen. I remember telling him I wanted to be the little old couple walking around holding hands that everyone thought was "so cute!" I guess it's possible some things were not clear to him - but he made it sound as if he received my messages, would follow through for a few days, then revert to old habits.
My H is NOW trying to give me what I need - little by little - mostly because I am extremely verbal about everything now. I want there to be no mistake about what I am asking from him. As I said before we are still working on the "sex talk" area - very uncomfortable for both of us - but I suppose we will get there eventually. To be quite honest - I told him I started this thread 2 nights ago and he has been working very hard since then..... even got a sweet text this morning on my cell. I answered back right away and let him know that I loved it!

Sorry about the mix up...not sure why you reminded me of that thread..similar situations I guess. Anyway I have a better idea now that you explained again. My H can be quiet like that. He will be quietly angry and the next day he may get over it..however I have caught on and try not to let it get to the next day. Otherwise, it will be brought up by him at a later date..which I hate. Remember that day? I don't like that. Say what you are upset about already and lets talk, don't wait until weeks or months later!

Glad to hear that you are both making efforts, if you both keep at it you may get to the place you want sooner or later. Thing I would remember is to make sure he isn't truly angry or resentful when he says he isn't. My dad never shows emotion, but I know from years of experience that his sadness and anger over issues with my mom eat away at him...this is a reason for his ulcers.

Thanks Happy - I know I just need to keep talking and eventually he will open up. But right now he doesn't see the need if he is "over it the next day" I have waited for a good opportunity just recently to say "I know you may be over it, but I'm not. Can we talk?" And that seemed to help some. It's just frustrating because I don't feel like I know WHO he is if I don't know what makes him tick. Time and support will help I am sure. I hope so anyway.

Maybe you could find NEW ways of interacting with each other, if the old ways don't work. Shake up your life, so that you get the old two of you back, when you weren't in your routine, comfortable, and taking things for granted. It might open up more of him.

Presumably, he was this way when you married him. And, you went years without telling
him of your dissatisfaction.
It seems like either it was a bad match from the start, or your preferences changed and then you expected him to change and become more demonstrative. Is that fair. I mean, did he misrepresent who he was during courtship? Or,is it more accurate to say that you misrepresented your need for someone that was more affectionate.
It seems that the latr may be true in light of your hiding your dissatisfaction in the early years.
See, I am not saying you are not entitled to affection. But, when you revealed this to him, you should have been the one to really do a lot of work to attempt to make it happen. After all, assuming he was honest going in, you were the one requiring a change and revealing something about yourself you hid.
Just saying you want such and such is not enough.After all, for years you misrepresented your need for this. Was he simply to discount all that? You should have arranged cousneling and retreats and such.
I mean, if you were willing to go to the lengths of having an affair to get your needs met, one has to wonder why all avenues were not explored in this area.

Cat- I love your idea. Shake things up a bit. My H loves routine - I fall into habits but love when things get mixed up a bit - so I will take your advice and see if I can't stir things up for us!
Zelmo - you nailed it pretty well. I can't say he was never affectionate - I know when we were dating we spent a lot of time cuddling, we went to lots of weddings and parties where he would ask me to dance and we'd smooch a little on the dance floor. He was never "romantic" per se - but I'm okay with that. I never got little trinkets, never got flowers. In fact when we were dating I told him that I don't do Hallmark holidays because there are 364 other days of the year that he can show me he loves me. When that bit me in the butt (he didn't do Hallmark holidays and did not do other days) I knew that the romantic just wasn't in him. I started doing the hallmark holidays for him anyways. He readily admits that all the affection stopped when we got married. "once I had you I didn't think I had to work so hard to keep you." Is a direct quote from my H. He no longer sat with me on the couch or floor - he had his own easy chair. When we went to weddings, he'd hang out with his buddies and only dance if I pulled him out or if someone else coerced him to ask me. But I take full responsibility that I did not speak up and tell him early on that I needed his affection. To some extent he had filled my LB up enough that I didn't realize it was missing at first. Once I did realize it, I tried talking about it, but did not push the issue. As far as retreats and counseling - I asked him several times to attend a church retreat for happily married couples, that just helps bring you closer. His sister and brother-in-law had attended and told us what a great experience it was. He always said he was not interested. I am the kind of person that once he says "no thanks" I don't push the issue - I figure no means no. I guess I should have taken the bull by the horns and forced him to go but that's not me.
Now, today I really blew it! We were decorating for Christmas with our boys. I have always wanted Christmas to be a magical time - he sees it as a chore, almost like he doesn't remember his childhood. But he did go so far as to make a "make shift" mistletoe a few years ago. He hung it up today and said "I wonder if this thing works" I totally LB'd him by saying "It's very creative and pretty but not really mistletoe is it?" The words came out way before I even thought and I regretted it instantly. He immediately withdrew to our bedroom, said nothing and went about doing some things in there on his own. I went in and apologized for my words. Gave him a hug and told him how sorry I was. He responded "It's okay, no big deal" And sounded as though it was really no big deal. He knew he would get "over it" I said, "It is a big deal. I am really sorry I hurt you. I wish you would talk to me when I do things that hurt you. You shouldn't have to "get over it."" I did not LB him on purpose to have this discussion, but it is not the first time I have told him I need to know how he feels. This time I just happened to know I hurt him - some times I don't know. It really bothers me that he won't open up. And please don't say that because of my A why would he want to open up to me - he has been this way for quite some time. I started to feel years ago like I didn't know who he was because he won't open up. I know my A didn't help matters...but where do I go from here?

Well I have been thinking all day about how I LB'd my H and wondering if Gack was right and that I am trying to push him away so hard that eventually he will say enough. It really bothered me today. But the conclusion I came to is that the "mistletoe" brings back bad memories of how I treated him that first year of my A. It just has bad mojo behind it. So I am going to ask him if he would like to go with me and buy a new mistletoe that will bring only good memories with it. Does that sound like a fair and good solution for all?

Sounds like you have such a boatload of resentment, Lizzy, that not even knowing how much trauma the affair inflicted is enough to deter commnets like the mistletoe deal.
I would imagine it took a lot of guts on his part to be that vulnerable so as to make that overture toward someone that betrayed him. So, he reached out(amazing to me ,as it seems you should be shouldering the bulk of the reaching at this point) and got his azz handed to him.
YOu had a ong term affair. You must really not like your H very much to have carried on that long and now rebuffed him.
Surely, you must have known , as those words entered your thoughts, that saying what you did was not nice. do you wonder why you went ahead and said it , anyway?

Thanks for the 2x4 Zelmo- I expected many more after I clicked the submit button - What I have come to realize after re-reading my posts (and listening to all of you) is how resentful I still am. I really do need help don't I? So tomorrow I will be on the phone setting up counseling - will ask my H today if he is interested in going too. Will let you know how it goes. If I want to make my M work I need to fix myself. Wow! Who would have thought it wasn't all his fault (I'm kidding - please don't punish me for that) But I see now how I blamed him and still do for a lot of what has happened. That is my problem (not his). Thanks.

How about you make today all about him?

Thanks Cat - I am working it! I have been really depressed these last few days. Needed some shoulders I guess. But realizing that MB is not about feeling sorry for myself now is it! Thanks Zelmo for smacking me in the face when I needed it most. We had a great chat just a while ago. We decided we both have a lot of work to do, a lot of expectations, just taking it day by day.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!
We have a winner!!!!

Admiting YOU have a problem, is half of the cure!!

I know you all probably think I have disappeared- but I am still around. I called to set up counseling with one of the very best in our area. Unffortunately, she is off this week but has a message to call me Monday a.m. to set it up. Trying to stay on track.
Thanks for the support Gack1 - Your ding ding ding comment made me laugh!

I know you all probably think I have disappeared- but I am still around. I called to set up counseling with one of the very best in our area. Unffortunately, she is off this week but has a message to call me Monday a.m. to set it up. Trying to stay on track.
Thanks for the support Gack1 - Your ding ding ding comment made me laugh!

The appointment is set - January 7, 2010 for IC. So for now, I am taking day by day. I must say since having Zelmo point out how resentful I am, I have been extremely miserable. Depressed and sad - in a real funk. I guess having it brought to my attention, knowing that I am the one who needs help, has really slapped me across the face. So for now I am just taking things day by day - not letting my funk get in the way of my H or my kids - still taking care of them and their needs. I know I will get this worked out - just need some help. Anything else?